Electric Cars.

[Trevor Crook]

Yes, I think the infrastructure will evolve as take-up increases. A more intelligent grid, with improved power storage systems, will minimise the impact on total power generation. Overnight, electricity from nuclear and offshore wind is surplus, they are very keen that it is used and the price is very low. More storage would smooth this out.

Probably more challenging is the cabling. If everyone wanted a high power charge facility at home, street cabling would need beefing up in many cases. Hopefully faster charging of batteries will be developed, and lots of charging will happen at the equivalent of petrol stations. We are still at the early stages, it's only about 10 years since the Leaf was launched, and look how far things have come with vehicles and renewables.

Percy, some feedback on real world range. My son's friend's 40kWh Zoe has a range of just under 200 miles in the summer, this has dropped to about 120 miles in the recent cold weather.

[eflightray]

For 'home' charging, what about charging facilities for those in large blocks of flats, or even simple terraced houses with on street parking ?

Even if there was a charging point on every street lighting post, they wont be close enough for a row of cars.

It's going to be one major problem to 'go electric' by any date.

Perhaps many 'electric' cars will have to have a small ICE running a generator if no fixed point charger is available.

Ray, ( an Ioniq driver )

[cymaz]

Will electric cars have an option of a sound board to make it sound like a Mustang V8 or Merlin?

[John Lee]

Several cars already have sound syntesizers through their audio systems so that they can pretend to be what they are not.

However for me one of the great benefits of an electric hybrid is just how tranquil they are when you are stuck in traffic.

The utter silence when stationary with the benefit that all the car's features continue to work (audio, air con/heater, wipers etc) makes motoring so much less stressful. Then when you can move the electric motor's instant torque makes it easy to step off the mark. I swapped a 4litre V8 convertible for my first hybrid and honestly the latter is so much better to drive in today's urban environment.

[Former Member]

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[eflightray]

Posted by John Lee on 18/02/2018 22:47:55:

Several cars already have sound syntesizers through their audio systems so that they can pretend to be what they are not.

However for me one of the great benefits of an electric hybrid is just how tranquil they are when you are stuck in traffic.

The utter silence when stationary with the benefit that all the car's features continue to work (audio, air con/heater, wipers etc) makes motoring so much less stressful. Then when you can move the electric motor's instant torque makes it easy to step off the mark. I swapped a 4litre V8 convertible for my first hybrid and honestly the latter is so much better to drive in today's urban environment.

Agreed, but only sometimes with mine.

On a cold day, and you want the hot air heater to clear the front screen when you stop at lights etc , my engine will go into fast tick-over to try and warm the engine up. It can be a bit embarrassing when those around you have either a quiet tick-over or their engines have the stop-start.

Once the engine has warmed up it's not a problem.

For personal heating I use the heated seat and steering wheel, (a touch of luxury), the engine goes off if using those.

 

Ray.

Edited By eflightray on 19/02/2018 15:28:39

[Paul Marsh]

What did I say? In my post above, There is not enough gas to run more power stations and also everything else.

There is a Gas supply warning, due to the cold weather, and loss of the North Sea, gas supplies are running low.

Electric cars would totally overwhelm the supplies, due to extra demand and situations like now, where it is very cold, where demand outstrips supply.

I'm right, again...

Edited By Paul Marsh on 01/03/2018 20:46:40

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Shaunie]

As a little aside, there has been discussion here about beefing up the supply infrastructure. Well it’s happening on the estate where I work they will shortly be installing eight container sized diesel generators which will feed into the grid at the substation they will be next door to. They will bolster supply at times of high demand. So basically all that will happen with all these green cars is that the source of pollution will be moved next door to me.

[Former Member]

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[Piers Bowlan]

The average car owner drives 13,500 miles a year or just 37 miles a day which works, even with existing battery technology for most people, their cars only requiring charging at night when demand is low and electricity cheap. Charging points will proliferate, it is happening now and provision will be made for people who live in flats to charge their cars on the street. Governments are committed to low carbon energy by treaty, which is why it has reversed its position on nuclear, having signed up to three large new reactors. Admittedly many of our 15 existing nuclear reactors will be phased out over the next few years as they reach the end of their life. Many new small modular reactors are planned to enable the UK to have 30% of its energy production to be low carbon by 2025, by which time all coal fired power stations will have been phased out.

As far as alternative energy is concerned new wind turbines sites are planned and the 137 turbine Rampion project, off the South Coast, will come on line this year. The problem with renewables is that they are not consistent. We get plenty of wind in these latitudes but often too much or too little, hence the drive to go more nuclear which gives us the option to ramp up electricity production on days of low wind and high demand. I think it a shame that the UK did not build the Severn Estuary hydro power project, first proposed back in the 1970s. This hydro electric scheme utilising tidal energy could have produced about 7% of the Uk's energy, without the problems of spent fuel disposal with nuclear. Following several studies it was concluded that it would be too costly making the electricity produced expensive. I think the electricity produced by the new breed of nuclear reactors, when they come online, will be the most expensive in the world!

[Former Member]

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[flight1]

There is one problem no one seems to see, a lot of house's don't have parking , you have to park on the street where you find a space and even a lot of the new housing developments don't allocate space out front for every one to be able to plug in overnight. there is a lot of infrastructure to be thought out and built to sort that out if you can reasonably

so why are the planners not making it necessary for facilities to be put in now!! madness and short sited

[Alan Jarvis]

I can't remember where I read it but it was over the last week or so. It may be just a local council. Planning applications for building new houses must include electric charging point. Given it would cost very little whilst building and there is a £500 government grant for anyone who wants to install one. I think the installation cost is £750. Buy a Nissan Leaf and they install it for free.

[ken anderson.]

i don't think that the UK getting some electric cars on the road is going to do much in the big/bigger picture of things...IE :- globally. fair enough every little helps etc,but when you have a lot of our fellow earthlings who are still not fussed...will what we do really make a difference.?

we have 15 cruise liners sailing the worlds oceans throwing out more horrible stuff than all the diesel cars in the world. We have 15 rivers that are filling the oceans in turn with plastic waste,comming from developing countries and 1 coal fired power station throws out more NOx than 43 million diesel cars!!!

the raw materials that have to come from our planet to make the cars and gear to go with them is another matter.

and finally our Gov see the part of the way...as putting a Tax on all/everything.

ken Anderson...ne....1.... save the UK dept.

Edited By ken anderson. on 02/03/2018 10:04:07

[Nigel R]

"We could be looking at something like a 10 year timescale I reckon."

You're missing a zero.

"I think it a shame that the UK did not build the Severn Estuary hydro power project"

Tidal is very predictable, but I'm not convinced it is practical. There are just 8 in operation so far. I don't think there are enough locations to build them, and you have to be prepared to completely hose the ecology of the region with the alterations to tidal/river flow. And they are very, very expensive. Like anything done under water.

Wind is cheap, we're doing wind, we have a lot of wind in the UK. Wind turbines don't seem to have much environmental impact beyond the usual nimby "it doesn't look very nice" complaint (well that's tough, you want eastenders and a cup of tea, etc). Offshore doesn't look great from an expense point of view, but onshore seems to work.

Solar is somewhat cheap, we're doing solar, we have some solar in the UK, enough to make it viable. Solar is practically invisible in most installs, you can pass by them within a few feet and not see the hardware.

At some point in the near future storage capacity will even out the wind supply a bit.

I firmly believe oil/coal/gas is still in the mix and will be for a good while yet. Nothing else provides the instant start up to fill in supply gaps when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining and the tiddly contribution made by pumped hydro isn't there.

[Nigel R]

"getting some electric cars on the road is going to do much in the big/bigger picture of things."

they (potentially) get us off saudi oil

that can't be a bad thing

[Alan Jarvis]

This is the future and it is happening now.

**LINK**

[MattyB]

Posted by flight1 on 02/03/2018 08:25:09:

There is one problem no one seems to see, a lot of house's don't have parking, you have to park on the street where you find a space and even a lot of the new housing developments don't allocate space out front for every one to be able to plug in overnight. there is a lot of infrastructure to be thought out and built to sort that out if you can reasonably

So why are the planners not making it necessary for facilities to be put in now! madness and short sighted.

If the tech companies get their way this issue will be solved by autonomous cars in the long term. The idea goes that people won't own a specific car any more; they will simply be members of a car sharing scheme and dial up what they want (# seats, amount of luggage space etc) when they want it. An appropriate autonomous vehicle will then turn up charged and ready to go. There are pointers in the Tesla Model 3 specs that point to exactly this type of a future.

As SpaceX proves, Elon Musk doesn't mess about with trying to foster slow, incremental change. Whether consumers are really ready for all that though, who knows... as an IT Security professional I personally find autonomous cars a rather scary proposition!

Edited By MattyB on 02/03/2018 12:23:34

[Bob Cotsford]

At present the electric market is pretty much limited to new vehicle sales. As a private owner I'm not sure it makes economic sense yet even with the Government 5 grand subsidy. Here is just one comparison that doesn't look so good for new technology. Then again, I wouldn't consider buying any new car, I let someone else take the depreciation hit . As for hybrids, I was chatting to a taxi driver last Tuesday, one of his colleagues had a Mitsubishi Outlander and had said that once past the pure electric range actual fuel consumption was worse than a pure fossil version.

Any electric owners care to add actual experiences of real world costs of ownership rathar than just running costs?

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 02/03/2018 12:31:09

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by MattyB on 02/03/2018 12:21:54:.... as an IT Security professional I personally find autonomous cars a rather scary proposition!

Edited By MattyB on 02/03/2018 12:23:34

You are not alone in that opinion Matty!  How long did it take hackers to crack keyless vehicle technology?  Steering wheel locks anyone?

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 02/03/2018 12:33:40

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Piers Bowlan]

A lot of interesting points Nigel but I suggest you read this if you have a mo. The tidal reach of the Severn Estuary is the second largest in the world. The contribution to UK energy generation would be 5-6% according to the latest figures, so not exactly tidily (equivalent to 3 nuclear power stations but without the spent fuel problem). Locks for shipping could have been built to facilitate passage to a new proposed deep water cargo terminal. I am sure it is not beyond the wit of man to enable migrating fish to continue to spawn and reduce other environmental impacts. Pretty small fry compared with the potential environmental impact of nuclear? Any under water engineering projects are very expensive as you say ( The barrage is estimated to cost £20B) Sisewell C is projected to cost £20.3B but is already £1.5B over budget and it is estimated that the 'top up' payments by consumers will be £30B over the course of the 35 year contract with EDF. This will make almost any alternative form of energy generation look rather cheap. It is also running 15months behind its planned completion date in 2025 (which coincides with the planned phasing out of Coal fired power stations.

The main advantage with tidal is that it is predictable unlike wind. Wind turbines are very expensive when standing idle because of summer anticyclonic weather with no wind or alternatively with winter gales. The ones located in the sea are expensive too being high maintenance, because of the effect of salt water. The other advantage of the Severn Barrage is that water can be stored in the lagoon and released through the 214 turbines to produce electricity at times of peak demand. The problem with electricity generation is that it can't be stored so why do you say that 'some time in the future storage capacity will even out the wind supply a bit?'

I feel that successive governments missed a trick when they didn't invest in the Severn Barrage scheme. It would have paid for itself by now and would continue to produce power for decades to come.

 

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 02/03/2018 14:12:39

[Dave Bran]

On infrastructure, I was interested to see that on a recent airport car park visit, vulnerable looking free standing charge points had been installed without safety barriers right by the fire exit path.

Have a look at the Tesla models and the sheer number of cells they carry underfloor. How prepared and well equipped are the emergency services to deal with this?

How does having this sizeable chemical fire risk in your garage affect house insurance?

Quite a few years ago now my business decided to carry out alternative fuel trials with otherwise identical Transits.

I was in conversation with the initiators on site and explaining my concern at the vulnerability of the fuel point installations, which they were staunchly denying the risk of, when behind them a woman backed out of a parking bay straight into the CNG pump, lifting it out of the ground.

I'd already caught them out by demo'ing that the fill nozzle was not properly safety interlocked and high pressure gas could be violently released with the nozzle NOT in the van's filler.

It's commonplace to rile against H&S restrictions, but sometimes people really should stand back and look at the idiotic things they have initiated!!

[Cuban8]

Charging from a lamp post outside your house sounds good, until you factor in how attractive the setup will be to the local vandals.

Edited By Cuban8 on 02/03/2018 14:14:52