Electric Cars.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

1 hour ago, Gary Manuel said:

Nah, I'll just drive it. I don't like my neighbours anyway 😉

 

You could suggest they complain to Nissan!

[GrumpyGnome]

Don't larger vehicles, like buses and lorries, have reversing beepers fitted as standard?  Do they switch off at night?  Generally curious, not being confrontational..... 🙂

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Dammed Jcb and the like have them here a headache when a neighbour is doing week end work, they never stop.😡

 

 And next doors Kia, beep beep beep, a real nuisance !🤢

Edited September 28, 2022 by Paul De Tourtoulon
next doors car

[MattyB]

On 26/09/2022 at 20:35, Gary Manuel said:

I think I know what Nissan's reply will be. Drat. Hole spotted in UK gov legislation.

 

I suspect they will just ignore it tbh - after all, the chances of enforcement action being taken on this point is vanishingly small. The very best he can hope for is that they implement the temporary disablement as a software switch in a future update.

Edited September 28, 2022 by MattyB

[MattyB]

3 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Don't larger vehicles, like buses and lorries, have reversing beepers fitted as standard?  Do they switch off at night?  Generally curious, not being confrontational..... 🙂

 

It seems so...

 

https://hgvtheorytest.co.uk/youre-driving-between-the-hours-of-11-30-pm-and-7-00-am-when-must-you-switch-off-your-vehicles-reverse-warning-bleeper/

[Gary Manuel]

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

 

I suspect they will just ignore it tbh - after all, the chances of enforcement action being taken on this point is vanishingly small.

They might ignore it but I won't unless they give me a valid answer.

4 hours ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Don't larger vehicles, like buses and lorries, have reversing beepers fitted as standard?  Do they switch off at night?  Generally curious, not being confrontational..... 🙂

I don't know whether they are fitted as standard, but if they are, there is a legal requirement for them to be switched off at night (99.(1)(b) below) and in sensitive locations.

 

Here's the complete legislation below.

Note that according to (my) emboldened text in part 99(3) this legislation, the Nissan Leaf should not be fitted with one at all - BUT being an EV, it now introduces the new AVAS (simulated engine sound), which applies to reversing as well as forwards driving. This is where the confusion between the reversing beeper and the reversing AVAS sound is coming from.

 

 ************************************************************************************

99.—(1) Subject to the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, any horn, gong, bell or siren fitted to or carried on a vehicle which is—

(a)stationary on a road, at any time, other than at times of danger due to another moving vehicle on or near the road; or

(b)in motion on a restricted road, between 23.30 hours and 07.00 hours in the following morning.

(2) The provisions of paragraph (1)(a) do not apply in respect of the sounding of a reversing alarm when the vehicle to which it is fitted is about to move backwards and its engine is running.

(3) No person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, on a road any reversing alarm fitted to a vehicle—

(a)unless the vehicle is a goods vehicle which has a maximum gross weight not less than 2000 kg, a bus, engineering plant, or a works truck; or

(b)if the sound of the alarm is likely to be confused with a sound emitted in the operation of a pedestrian crossing established, or having effect as if established, under Part III of the 1984 Act.

(4) Subject to the provisions of the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded a gong, bell, siren or two-tone horn, fitted to or otherwise carried on a vehicle (whether it is stationary or not).

(5) Nothing in paragraph (1) or (4) shall prevent the sounding of—

(a)an instrument or apparatus fitted to, or otherwise carried on, a vehicle at a time when the vehicle is being used for one of the purposes specified in regulation 37(5) and it is necessary or desirable to do so either to indicate to other road users the urgency of the purposes for which the vehicle is being used, or to warn other road users of the presence of the vehicle on the road; or

(b)a horn (not being a two-tone horn), bell, gong or siren—

(i) to raise alarm as to the theft or attempted theft of the vehicle or its contents; or

(ii) in the case of a bus, to summon help for the driver, the conductor or an inspector.

(6) Subject to the provisions of section 62 of the Control of Pollution Act 1974 and notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (1) and (4) above, a person may, between 12.00 hours and 19.00 hours, sound or cause or permit to be sounded an instrument or apparatus, other than a two-tone horn, fitted to or otherwise carried on a vehicle, being an instrument or apparatus designed to emit a sound for the purpose of informing members of the public that the vehicle is conveying goods for sale, if, when the apparatus or instrument is sounded, it is sounded only for that purpose.

(7) For the purposes of this regulation the expressions which are referred to in regulation 37(10) have the meanings there given to them and the expression “restricted road” in paragraph (1) means a road which is a restricted road for the purpose of section 81 of the 1984 Act.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Gary Manuel

[GrumpyGnome]

Looking at Matty's link, they need to be off where the speed limit us 30mph and therefore likely to be residential.  Interesting.

 

Cheers gents.

[Gary Manuel]

43 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Looking at Matty's link, they need to be off where the speed limit us 30mph and therefore likely to be residential.  Interesting.

 

Cheers gents.

If you read my last post, they should be off at all times. Reversing alarms are reserved for HGVs, busses, plant etc. It is illegal for any car to have a reversing alarm AT ANY TIME!

[MattyB]

13 minutes ago, Gary Manuel said:

If you read my last post, they should be off at all times. Reversing alarms are reserved for HGVs, busses, plant etc. It is illegal for any car to have a reversing alarm AT ANY TIME!

 

...and if you read the link I posted 😉, you'll see it was from a quiz aimed at HGV and other large vehicle drivers - I provided it because @GrumpyGnome specifically asked whether they needed to turn off their reversing alarms at night.

Edited September 28, 2022 by MattyB

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I pity blind pedestrians at night then. 

[Gary Manuel]

It would appear that the legality of the reversing alarm is not a new issue to Nissan.

They were forced to delay the sale of UK models back in 2011 for this very reason!!!

 

I'm not sure what has changed since then, other than the recent introduction of the requirement for AVAS.

I suspect that they have just shoe-horned the existing reversing alarm sound into the new AVAS system and run with it.

My view is that if the reversing beeper was illegal in 2011, then it is still illegal today.

 

Source:

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/8880765.nissan-leaf-facing-delay/

[Don Fry]

3 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I pity blind pedestrians at night then. 

Sub optimal IQ rating, mobility impaired, drunk, doped up, Still licenced to operate at walkers. Or indeed, as John Stones (cynic) observed, a walker to driver transition. Without a change of state. What can go wrong. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by Don Fry

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I don’t know that all blind people conform to your stereotype…😜

[Don Fry]

Stand corrected,

 

[MattyB]

4 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

I pity blind pedestrians at night then. 

You don’t get many silencer electric HGVs though do you, at least not yet! 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I was thinking about Gary’s silent car reversing...although there are electric commercials coming through. 
 

https://www.daf.co.uk/en-gb/trucks/alternative-fuels-and-drivelines/battery-electric-vehicles/daf-cf-electric

[Andy Stephenson]

On 26/09/2022 at 16:22, Shaun Walsh said:

You're right, there's some more information on line, some people have physically disconnected the sounder.

Am I missing something here, if it's possible to disconnect the sounder, it's also possible to put a switch in the circuit.

[Gary Manuel]

3 hours ago, Andy Stephenson said:

Am I missing something here, if it's possible to disconnect the sounder, it's also possible to put a switch in the circuit.

Yes, I could have it silenced within minutes (I listed the options a couple of pages back), but then I'd become liable in the event of an accident and would invalidate the insurance, warranty and terms of lease. I want to silence it the proper way, by getting the manufacturer to fix what I consider to be a manufacturing defect.

 

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

It’s a little more complex than if you owned it but perhaps you could take it up with the leasing company if it’s really a problem for you. Tell them that it is not fit for purpose as you can’t use it at night and have a reasonable expectation to be able to do so and ask them to help resolve it if they don’t want you to take action to terminate the contract or maybe look into other legal action. 
 

If you had purchased it yourself then I suspect that you could have the right to return it and get your money back under consumer legislation due to it not being fit for purpose - perhaps that might concentrate Nissan’s minds into providing an override?

[Gary Manuel]

4 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

It’s a little more complex than if you owned it but perhaps you could take it up with the leasing company? Tell them that it is not fit for purpose as you can’t use it at night and have a reasonable expectation to be able to do so and ask them to help resolve it if they don’t want you to take action to terminate the contract or maybe look into other legal action. 
 

If you had purchased it yourself then I suspect that you could have the right to return it and get your money back under consumer legislation due to it not being fit for purpose - perhaps that might concentrate Nissan’s minds into providing an override?

That comes later on my list. At the moment, I am giving Nissan Customer Services a chance to deal with it. 

 

PS. It's not just using it at night that's the problem. It's illegal for any vehicle under 2 Tonnes to have one fitted at all in the UK.

 

Can you imagine the sound of Asda car park in a few years time if all cars sounded like this? The poor old blind person wouldn't know which way to turn. That's why it's illegal and that's why Tesla's, BMWs etc don't have them fitted.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I don't know about Tesla, but over here only the brake lights seem to work on German cars, like indicators they just don't work,,,

[Trevor Crook]

My son in law bought a Tesla Model Y a few weeks ago, which I have driven. Can't say I noticed reversing sounds, but what a fantastic car. First experience of driving an EV, it's like the smoothest, most responsive autobox you could imagine, with stellar performance. Fantastic packaging as well. Seats fold flat for model transport, big boot with deep storage area under boot floor, another deep storage area under the bonnet. Don't know why Tesla can provide this when none of the others can.

Costs a lot, but running costs are peanuts if you home charge - it's cost him £60 in "fuel" to cover 800 miles (7.5p/mile) and this will come down to about 3p/mile when his Octopus Go tariff becomes active. Out of curiosity he fed the details into Webuyanycar and got a valuation a couple of grand higher than he paid for it, so depreciation should be low too.

If only I could afford one....

[MattyB]

12 hours ago, Andy Stephenson said:

Am I missing something here, if it's possible to disconnect the sounder, it's also possible to put a switch in the circuit.

 

Unfortunately on modern cars it's not necessarily as simple as that. In many cases physical buttons (and the spaces where they used to be put) are vanishing from dashboards to be replaced by a large touchscreen tablet style interface. This is partly because it is (apparently) what the majority of customers want, but also because it saves money for the manufacturers - dashboard wiring is far simpler and quicker to install if you don't have to get wires to buttons spread liberally across the cabin.

 

Even where there is a physical switch in the cabin, these are rarely directly inline with the function being controlled. What I mean by that is the switch is just an input to one of the myriad computers spread across a modern vehicle, and is it is that computer which will take one or more sequenced, software based actions as a result. For example, the reversing noise being generated here is highly unlikely to be a simple beeper - it will be a sound sound file playing through a speaker unit that requires a trigger from the computer to play.

 

Yes, in theory an inline switch could be inserted somewhere just upstream of the sound unit to cut voltage and prevent it operating whenever the driver wants to silence it. However, a) that is likely to give a dashboard warning light that will need to be cleared every time you use it, and b) fitting that switch so it is accessible will be an absolute wiring nightmare. That is why Nissan are far more likely to approach this with a software update that enables it to be silenced from the main screen - not necessarily convenient for the driver, but at least the option will be there.

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by MattyB

[MattyB]

29 minutes ago, Trevor Crook said:

My son in law bought a Tesla Model Y a few weeks ago, which I have driven. Can't say I noticed reversing sounds, but what a fantastic car. First experience of driving an EV, it's like the smoothest, most responsive autobox you could imagine, with stellar performance. Fantastic packaging as well. Seats fold flat for model transport, big boot with deep storage area under boot floor, another deep storage area under the bonnet. Don't know why Tesla can provide this when none of the others can.

 

 

The Skoda Enyaq is actually more practical and less expensive than a Y, but obviously cannot use the Supercharger network which for many is the reason they go for a Tesla. 

[MattyB]

3 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

It’s a little more complex than if you owned it but perhaps you could take it up with the leasing company if it’s really a problem for you. Tell them that it is not fit for purpose as you can’t use it at night and have a reasonable expectation to be able to do so and ask them to help resolve it if they don’t want you to take action to terminate the contract or maybe look into other legal action. 
 

If you had purchased it yourself then I suspect that you could have the right to return it and get your money back under consumer legislation due to it not being fit for purpose - perhaps that might concentrate Nissan’s minds into providing an override?

 

2 hours ago, Gary Manuel said:

That comes later on my list. At the moment, I am giving Nissan Customer Services a chance to deal with it. 

 

The other option is to get someone like Which? involved; stuff like this is their bread and butter, and they have been pretty successful in the past on similar issues (though they are less influential than in their pre-internet heyday in the 80s and 90s).

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by MattyB