Electric Cars.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

59 minutes ago, Trevor Crook said:

My son in law bought a Tesla Model Y a few weeks ago, which I have driven. Can't say I noticed reversing sounds, but what a fantastic car. First experience of driving an EV, it's like the smoothest, most responsive autobox you could imagine, with stellar performance. Fantastic packaging as well. Seats fold flat for model transport, big boot with deep storage area under boot floor, another deep storage area under the bonnet. Don't know why Tesla can provide this when none of the others can.

Costs a lot, but running costs are peanuts if you home charge - it's cost him £60 in "fuel" to cover 800 miles (7.5p/mile) and this will come down to about 3p/mile when his Octopus Go tariff becomes active. Out of curiosity he fed the details into Webuyanycar and got a valuation a couple of grand higher than he paid for it, so depreciation should be low too.

If only I could afford one....

Can you do me some Maths please, my 308SW diesel cost me 25.000€ new and uses less than 5 litres to 100 kilometres, ( average 4.7  )so how many kilometres do I need to do to pay the for the extra cost of a Tesla, to make it simple on British fuel and electric prices.

 

 thanks Paul

[Trevor Crook]

Matty, the Enyaq is a fine machine. I prefer the internal and external styling to the Tesla's, and it is cheaper, although you would have to spec the top model to match the Tesla's 4WD and performance, which makes the Skoda £51250 v the Tesla's £57999. 

This brief comparison is interesting, I still think the Tesla has more space if you take into account the underboot area and the "frunk".

Tesla are trialling opening up their charge network, the one nearest us is open to all.

[Gary Manuel]

50 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

 

The other option is to get someone like Which? involved; stuff like this is their bread and butter, and they have been pretty successful in the past on similar issues (though they are less influential than in their pre-internet heyday in the 80s and 90s).

 

Good idea. I know it's not a big deal but as things are going, it will start to affect more and more people. Things like this need to be harmonised (pun intended) across all brands. A publication like Which might help.

I'm an eternal optimist (with a hint of realism), so I'm hoping that Nissan will sort something out. The prospect of litigation and losing future custom is what will concentrate their minds, not what 1 customer thinks.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Gary Manuel

[Trevor Crook]

Interesting question, Paul. Not really fair to compare the Peugeout to a Tesla, the MG 5 is more similar. I'll do some sums and come back later.

[Gary Manuel]

53 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

Unfortunately on modern cars it's not necessarily as simple as that. In many cases physical buttons (and the spaces where they used to be put) are vanishing from dashboards to be replaced by a large touchscreen tablet style interface. This is partly because it is (apparently) what the majority of customers want, but also because it saves money for the manufacturers - dashboard wiring is far simpler and quicker to install if you don't have to get wires to buttons spread liberally across the cabin.

 

Even where there is a physical switch in the cabin, these are rarely directly inline with the function being controlled. What I mean by that is the switch is just an input to one of the myriad computers spread across a modern vehicle, and is it is that computer which will take one or more sequenced, software based actions as a result. For example, the reversing noise being generated here is highly unlikely to be a simple beeper - it will be a sound sound file playing through a speaker unit that requires a trigger from the computer to play.

 

Yes, in theory an inline switch could be inserted somewhere just upstream of the sound unit to cut voltage and prevent it operating whenever the driver wants to silence it. However, a) that is likely to give a dashboard warning light that will need to be cleared every time you use it, and b) fitting that switch so it is accessible will be an absolute wiring nightmare. That is why Nissan are far more likely to approach this with a software update that enables it to be silenced from the main screen - not necessarily convenient for the driver, but at least the option will be there.

 

Switch position is available and it's right in front of the AVAS module behind the dashboard. Easy to find with Google. I'd be happy if Nissan offered to fit this but TBH they should completely silence the illegal reversing alarm at all times, not just with a switch.

[Outrunner]

33 minutes ago, Trevor Crook said:

Matty, the Enyaq is a fine machine. I prefer the internal and external styling to the Tesla's, and it is cheaper, although you would have to spec the top model to match the Tesla's 4WD and performance, which makes the Skoda £51250 v the Tesla's £57999. 

This brief comparison is interesting, I still think the Tesla has more space if you take into account the underboot area and the "frunk".

Tesla are trialling opening up their charge network, the one nearest us is open to all.

 

Somebody's having laugh, over £51 grand for a car😱

[Tim Kearsley]

I paid £56k for my Tesla Model 3 Performance.  Its all relative as they say.  I doubt you'd find a Porsche for less than £80k these days (that's a pure guess by the way).  You might as well say the guys who spend £10k plus on kitting out a big turbine powered RC jet are having a laugh.  I used to be heavily into astronomy and there were people happy to spend £20k and more on equipment. 

[Trevor Crook]

OK, I've done some sums comparing list price and fuelling costs of an entry level Peugeot 308SW and an entry level MG5. Obviously there are lots of variables, particularly for EVs. I have used the cheapest way of fuelling an EV, 7.5p/kWh which is the off peak rate for Octopus Go, this can be multiplied up to give costs for other tariffs. I got the average UK price of diesel as £1.80/l from globalpetrolprices.com. I used Paul's real life fuel consumption figure, which I make 56mpg. I got the real-world efficiency figure for the MG from ev-databaseuk, which is 285Wh/mile. Finally, I've worked it out for 10000 miles/year.

Peugeot 308 SW Active Premium diesel, listed at £27870: 10,000miles at 56mpg = 178.57g, x4.55 = 812.5l. Multiply by £1.80 to give an annual fuel cost of £1462.50

MG5 SE Long Range, listed at £31000: 10,000miles at 285Wh/mile = 2850kWh. Multiply by 7.5p to give an annual fuel cost of £213.75

Other costs to consider: in the UK, diesel cars are subject to £165 p.a. VED, EVs are currently £0. Servicing costs for EVs are much less than i.c. but will vary on the car.

Finally, the biggest cost of ownership is depreciation. I looked on Autotrader at 2 year old cars. I found a 308SW with 6000 miles for £18,000, which Autotrader said is £500 above average, so say £17.5k average. There is an "average" price MG5 with 8000 miles for £25k, which suggests you will lose £10370 on the Peugeot and £6000 on the MG over 2 years.

Please check my sums. Over to you, folks, everyone's budgets, needs and wants are different!

[Tim Kearsley]

That's a very comprehensive examination of the costs involved Trevor.  I too use Octopus Go and my tariff goes up to the 7.5p/kWh figure at the end of October.  Currently it's 5p/kWh.  The thing is though that not everyone buys a car just on cheapness to run. I bought the Tesla because there's no petrol or diesel car that can match its acceleration (0 to 60mph in 3.2 sec) costing less than six figures and because I like the idea of not producing CO2 every time I drive.  The anti-electric brigade will leap to their feet pointing out that batteries aren't green,  they take ages to charge, there's a fire risk,  etc, etc.  Can't argue with any of that but electric suits me and, like it or not, I think the days of buying new internal combustion powered cars are numbered. 

[Tim Kearsley]

One point to consider with Trevor's calculations is that they assume all charging is done at home.  If you factor in a proportion of charging at public chargers, which most users would, the cost rises because public chargers are now expensive.  Tesla have recently put their supercharger rates up to 65p/kWh and I believe Osprey now charge £1/kWh.  The other side of the coin is that there are still some free public chargers.  We have a shopping centre close by which have all their Pod Point chargers still free to use.

[Trevor Crook]

Indeed Tim, the reason I fed in the 7.5p figure was to allow reasonably easy calculation with higher rates via multiplication. Of course, the more charging sources you use, the more complex it all gets!

Don't think I can aspire to a Tesla, but when I decide to replace my Hyundai i30, which won't be for a while, I'll certainly see if I can stretch to an MG4. This is a similar size to my present car, and the price (starting at £26k) is not wildly different to a combustion equivalent. 

[Tim Kearsley]

I think the thing is Trevor, the range of electric vehicles is increasing all the time and the price is falling.  There's even been talk for a while now of Tesla bringing out a so-called "affordable" model (the Model 2?).  My partner recently bought a 71 plate Seat Mii, which certainly wouldn't suit everyone, being very small and only WLTP range of about 180 miles, but for her, doing mostly very local, town journeys, it's ideal.  It wasn't expensive. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I forgot,  the mileage looking for a working charging station, the price of the cards to charge as each station have their own monthly payments, the meal or sleeping arrangements while charging overnight, ( I could fill mine up to do 800 kilometres while typing that ) would someone actually buy a second hand electric MG ?,

 

308sw 2 years old here ( manual ) with 10.000 kilometres 27.000€,

 

second hand  MG 25.000€

 

 a complete overturn in france

 

"maybe" when I have test run the RCV .58 that I just bought second hand, I might do a french comparison,,,

[Trevor Crook]

Paul, agreed the infrastructure needs improvement, but its happening. In the UK, all rapid chargers installed in the last couple of years have to accept contactless payment, so individual cards and apps will gradually disappear. Tesla chargers will always need an app as they have no means of payment.

And yes, I'd rather buy a 2 year old MG with 5 years warranty remaining than a 2 year old Peugeot with only 1 year.

[Tim Kearsley]

I don't know where you're getting some of your information Paul.  I've never, ever charged at a public charger for more than about 40 minutes.  Granted, most of my charging has been at Tesla chargers, which are high power, but there are plenty of other chargers which are 50kW or higher.  As Trevor says, most accept contactless payment.  Trevor, Tesla chargers don't need anything at all at the time of charging as the charger recognises the car and subsequently debits your account.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I live in the south of france, one club member is on his third Zoe, with long trips he uses his 308 diesel another a Kia, and got himself a Peugeot 307sw diesel,

 4 charging stations in our town ( 40.000 population ) only one works and the others are slow chargers in supermarket car parks, the Intermarché  super market one needs their card and it's a slow charger, I think that you will only find Tesla and quick chargers on our expensive autoroutes.😡

[Tim Kearsley]

Fair comment Paul.  On the plus side though you live in a far less congested, more rural environment.  There's a lot to be said for that!

[Ace]

Make hay while you can using electric as it won't be long before mileage pricing to even up the loss in tax revenue from Petrol/Diesel adds say another 5/6p (possible more) per mile.

[Trevor Crook]

Sorry Tim, I knew that Tesla owners could just plug in and charge at Superchargers. I was thinking of the Superchargers that had been opened up to non-Teslas. I think you need to download the app and register, then use the app when charging. I've a feeling you may only have to do that the first time, but may be wrong.

It's a shame that France doesn't seem to be supporting EVs, especially as so much of their power comes from carbon free (nuclear) sources.

[Trevor Crook]

I think if charging per mile comes in, it will be across the board for all drive trains. 

[Ace]

True but would be very brave to leave the current 40+ % tax and add millage as well. 

[john davidson 1]

charging per mile is undoubtedly coming, I  also saw that a gps based fitment is proposed to limit engine revs in speed limits , ( by the EEC)

Edited September 29, 2022 by john davidson 1
spelling

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

I live in the south of france, one club member is on his third Zoe, with long trips he uses his 308 diesel another a Kia, and got himself a Peugeot 307sw diesel,

 4 charging stations in our town ( 40.000 population ) only one works and the others are slow chargers in supermarket car parks, the Intermarché  super market one needs their card and it's a slow charger, I think that you will only find Tesla and quick chargers on our expensive autoroutes.😡

No road fund licence, empty auto routes, pick a lightly loaded HGV, who looked capabable of driving, set auto cruise, and sit there. That’s about 60 mpg. Cost, long effortless drive, 300 miles, £12. And the service stations serve edible food. And provide dog walks. And smaller ones do BBQ facilities. Toilets don’t smell. French ladies, chic dressing.  Mind, the mindless music in the bog just does a casual glance for wiring. Suppress, cos I’m good.

 

And Ace, the Gilets Jaune protests in France had its base there. Urban transport infrastructure, tax provided. Rural non existent infrastructure, tax hike on fuel. Squeeze on wages. Person the barricades. Note modern non gender use of language.

 

And John, in France, I’m told, never tried it, if your motorway ticket is in the machine before you are allowed to arrive, the Gardarmerie open the barrier. They are ever helpful. They will drive you to the cashpoint machine. I note, not many speeders. 

[GrumpyGnome]

Isn't there currently a significant problem in the second hand market? The 'fall-off' of the battery performance......... is it still about 2.5% a year?

[MattyB]

47 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

Isn't there currently a significant problem in the second hand market? The 'fall-off' of the battery performance......... is it still about 2.5% a year?

Quite the opposite - the “I wouldn’t buy a secondhand one, the battery will be dead” stuff really should be consigned to history now, as these cars are well capable of a useful lifecycle longer than almost all of keep our vehicles.

 

Second hand EVs are currently going for big money because demand is so high and they are hard to come by. Most new EVs come with an 8 year battery warranty (that’s for 80 or 85% capacity remaining), so whilst your 2.5% a year is not a million miles off, (though the latest packs should perform significantly better than that we are told), most models now start out with 225 miles or more WLTP range so degradation is far less of an issue - even a drop off to 80% capacity is still going to be perfectly usable for 99% of return journeys. Even if your battery does die completely after 10 years, how much is a mass market ICE car worth by that point anyway - maybe 5-7%? In 10 years time that will probably even less because petrol will have been further marginalised through taxation by governments worldwide.
 

No, it’s not your future trade in value that you should be worried about, it’s the cost of the thing in the first place whether bought new or secondhand - that is what has kept me out of one to date, I just can’t make the numbers work vs. the 2 year old, 20k mile ICE alternatives that I have historically bought.

Edited September 29, 2022 by MattyB