Electric Cars.

[Don Fry]

Sorry Tim, wrong attitude. Car park, pedestrians and cars mixed together. Each have equal rights. It’s a big pavement. Mover of machinery has responsibilities not to kill the squashy bits moving about the same shared space. I don’t use a mobile, I don’t own earphones. I am routinely (Just) moving out of the way. I don’t accept damage from mirror collisions. Or if I abandon the trolly. Their mirror. Their side panels.  I saw an obviously disabled elderly lady side swiped last week. Clue was the crutches. 
Sorry if it upsets, look at the statistics of vehicle drivers killing pedestrians. Pedestrians might be stupid, but the car driver has passed a test to say they have some ability. And they drive a heavy squashy bit killer. Their job, don’t hit squashies. 
Point of view. When, lazy parker, reversing out, did you see the cretin use a passenger to see the road was clear. I have never seen it. Mind I’m lacking experience. 70 years, 1.5 million road miles.

Again, apologies for the aggression. I am sure it a throwaway remark. But think.

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Beep has been there yonks, work on a shop floor with forklifts, you'd be in favour of it, turn yer beep off at night ? Is that coz of the "Woke" brigade ?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

"Pedestrians" in carparks ? Lol, drivers/passenger going to/from their vehicles.

[Gary Manuel]

1 hour ago, Don Fry said:

Am I getting a bit OTT here. Car reverses, gives warning. Necessity. Built up area, warning siren still quieter than pedestrian crushed under car, (and yes, I have heard that sound). I find the low speed rumble that electric cars make still very quite, I’ll get used to it in time, but a silent machine, moves back, no noise, one light, no thanks.

Not asking for silence. The subtle sound it makes going forwards would be fine, but the reverse sound is MUCH louder. I took my wife to the dentist yesterday and had to reverse out of the car park. A group of workmen stopped what they were doing INSIDE the dentist and came outside to see what all the commotion was about. It's embarrassing!

 

This is the old style Leaf, but the sound is similar. Yuk.

 

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Sounds like sumat from Doctor Who, still musn't grumble. 🤣

[Gary Manuel]

16 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Sounds like sumat from Doctor Who, still musn't grumble. 🤣

No - just have a good old chuckle like the work men did.....

 

Anyway, I have an update. Ten out of 10 for Nissan Customer Services in getting back to me so quickly with the following reply:

 

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Dear Mr Manuel,

Thank you for contacting Nissan Customer Services about your Nissan Leaf  REG-xxxxxxx  VIN- xxxxxxxxxxxx and its specifications.

We here at Nissan pride ourselves on the durability and technical excellence of our vehicles.

We understand that you have contacted us due to reversing sound of your vehicle. We would like to inform you that It is not possible to disable this feature, as per regulation ECE-138.

It is important to us to provide innovation that excites us, and as such we are constantly finding new ways to change and improve our product line-up.

Due to our focus on improving and modifying our models, variations of each model may have different components, software and hardware. 

Sometimes, modifications are made when creating our newer models, other features may need to be removed to accommodate them or to make the vehicle affordable for our customers.

We do apologise that your Nissan leaf does not have the same components as the Nissan vehicles you had seen previously. 

We do appreciate the fact you have taken the time to let us know your feedback on this feature, and we will ensure that this feedback is recorded in our systems for internal review.

If you have any further enquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us using the details provided below.


Kind regards

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and my reply back to them:

 

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Thank you for your reply on this matter.

 

I understand that ECE-138 (clause 6.2.6) requires that the "pause function" is not permitted and would explain why the switch has been removed for countries where this standard still applies.

https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R138r1e.pdf

 

The vehicle in question was however, supplied within the UK and should therefore be compliant with Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) 2017/1576. This supersedes (and in fact refers to) ECE-138. The vehicle should therefore be fitted with a switch to allow the sounder to be temporarily disabled. As stated within my original query, this is to allow for legal use of the vehicle within the hours of 23:30 and 07:00 and at noise sensitive locations. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2017/1576/annex/paragraph/1

 

Could I therefore repeat my request that my car to be retrospectively fitted with a switch to make it legal for me to drive at night?

 

Regards,

Gary Manuel

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[Gary Manuel]

I think I know what Nissan's reply will be. Drat. Hole spotted in UK gov legislation.

[Don Fry]

I have dreams of Thinkerbell in Aladdin. She comes to me in my dreams sounding like that. Off to bed..

[PatMc]

Isn't the Leaf fitted with rear obstacle detectors as standard ? My 5 year old Qashqai is, they make the driver aware of any pedestrian behind the car.  My experience of reversing in car parks is that pedestrians don't pay much heed to either engine noise or reversing lights, making the rear view mirrors (& camera) then the detectors more important than any beeping from an electric vehicle would be. 

[Ron Gray]

Spinning the wheels usually gets their attention, forwards or in reverse.

[IDD15]

Yes it does and I’ve found them very effective. It also has a good reversing camera as well. However, I do find the view out the rear window a bit restricted compared to other cars I’ve owned.
 

Quite understand where GM is coming from with that particular reversing noise though. We have found that horses and cows don’t like the forwards warning sound much either, so am very cautious when overtaking riders and horses. Audi eTrons have a really cool sounding forward warning noise, Nissan take note.

 

idd

 

 

[Piers Bowlan]

My July 2021 Leaf+ Tekna has a switch  to switch the <20mph forward warning off. When reversing is quiet as a mouse with not a sound!

Leaf;- well designed and built. Quick and relaxing to drive. Reliable and economical.

[Gary Manuel]

7 hours ago, Piers Bowlan said:

My July 2021 Leaf+ Tekna has a switch  to switch the <20mph forward warning off. When reversing is quiet as a mouse with not a sound!

Leaf;- well designed and built. Quick and relaxing to drive. Reliable and economical.

That's the annoying thing. Nissan appear to have taken it upon themselves to add the really loud reversing "noise" with no way of turning it off when other companies haven't. As I say, other than that, it's a nice car. 

 

On a more positive note, here's a photo of my smart meter monitor. Note the peak in kWh representing charging the car between 00:30 and 04:30 (00:40 to 04:20 actually - just in case). 

 

Here's the same usage represented as £s. The peak has completely gone due to the 7.5p per unit 4 hours Octopus Go rate. Very satisfying 🙂. It will get even more satisfying after my fast charger gets installed in 2 weeks time and then my solar / battery system later in the year (when products become available).

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gary Manuel

[Tim Kearsley]

What charger are you going for Gary?  Is it one of the "smart" chargers that will divert power to the car when there's excess solar?  I bought a 7kW Pod Point charger back in 2018, before smart chargers were really well known.  I wish now of course that I had something like the Zappi charger.  Up to now, I've not bothered trying to trickle charge the car from solar, as I am paying 5p/kWh to charge and getting 4.5p/kWh for export, so the 0.5p/kWh difference is insignificant.  From Oct 29th my Go cheap rate goes to 7.5p/kWh, so it will be worth doing.  GivEnergy, who supplied my battery and inverter, are introducing their own smart charger, priced at £499.  I'm in two minds at the moment whether to go for it.

[Gary Manuel]

1 hour ago, Tim Kearsley said:

What charger are you going for Gary?  Is it one of the "smart" chargers that will divert power to the car when there's excess solar?  I bought a 7kW Pod Point charger back in 2018, before smart chargers were really well known.  I wish now of course that I had something like the Zappi charger.  Up to now, I've not bothered trying to trickle charge the car from solar, as I am paying 5p/kWh to charge and getting 4.5p/kWh for export, so the 0.5p/kWh difference is insignificant.  From Oct 29th my Go cheap rate goes to 7.5p/kWh, so it will be worth doing.  GivEnergy, who supplied my battery and inverter, are introducing their own smart charger, priced at £499.  I'm in two minds at the moment whether to go for it.

Charger will be an Ohme Home Pro 2. Not yet fully solar integrated (they are apparently still working on this feature) but shouldn't be an issue as I think I will be able to charge the car from batteries / inverter and all excess solar used to recharge the batteries. My electricity usage is actually significantly higher than the solar panels will deliver, so I am thinking that I will just end up charging the car from the grid at the 7.5 /kWh rate at the same time that I am topping up the batteries. 

 

GivEnergy charger sounds like a bargain (once it is available).

Edited September 27, 2022 by Gary Manuel

[Tim Kearsley]

19 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Sorry Tim, wrong attitude.

 

Don, my attitude isn't "wrong" just because I take a different viewpoint to you.  I was trying to put a bit of balance into the discussion.  Of course drivers need to be careful when manoeuvring - most are.  My point is that, equally, pedestrians need to be careful - most are.  For every bit of anecdotal evidence you quote of careless driving I can quote you an example of people on foot who do daft things - come out from behind a parked car without looking is a common one.  The trouble with modern society is that no-one wants to accept responsibility - it's always someone else's fault.  Adding false noise to a car seems another example of the nanny state trying to avoid every possible risk, however slight.  How would you like it if your neighbour reversed into his drive at midnight and woke you up with a totally superfluous beeping? 

[Gary Manuel]

I can't fault Nissan Customer Services:

 

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Dear Mr Manuel,

Thank you for your response.

We are sorry for the inconvenience that this may have caused.

I would like to inform you that it may not possible to retrospectively fit a switch as these kinds of changes are supposed to be done at the point of manufacturing According to our information our previous answer is correct concerning the regulation of the vehicle .

However, for more  information I am going to escalate this question to our experts. I will get back to you once I heard back from them.

Thank you for patience.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us using the details below.
 

Kind regards
 

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and my reply to fill the hole I found in the UK legislation:

 

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Thank you for escalating my concerns to your experts.

 

Could you please ensure that they are aware of the source of UK legislation which applies specifically to the reversing sounder at night rather than the more general use of the "Acoustic Vehicle Alerting System" (AVAS), which I have no problem with. It is this UK legislation which I believe is making the reversing of my Nissan Leaf in a built-up area illegal between the hours of 23:30 and 07:00.

 

The UK legislation is to be found in the UK government Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/99/made

The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 - Legislation.gov.uk Legislation is available in different versions: Latest Available (revised):The latest available updated version of the legislation incorporating changes made by subsequent legislation and applied by our editorial team.Changes we have not yet applied to the text, can be found in the ‘Changes to Legislation’ area. www.legislation.gov.uk

The specific wording reads:

 

use of audible warning instruments

 

99.—(1) Subject to the following paragraphs, no person shall sound, or cause or permit to be sounded, any horn, gong, bell or siren fitted to or carried on a vehicle which is—

 

(a)stationary on a road, at any time, other than at times of danger due to another moving vehicle on or near the road; or

 

(b)in motion on a restricted road, between 23.30 hours and 07.00 hours in the following morning.

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[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Playing devil’s advocate, I’m sure your car is capable of exceeding most, if not all speed limits but the maker isn’t responsible (yet!) for limiting its speed.  Similarly, you aren’t compelled to reverse so they might argue that, in the same way that you should leave home in sufficient time to get to your destination without speeding, you could plan your manoeuvres to avoid reversing in a restricted road or place.

 

Hardly practical I know - and unattractive to potential buyers but possibly enough for them to avoid any liability to modify your existing vehicle. 

[Gary Manuel]

10 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Playing devil’s advocate, I’m sure your car is capable of exceeding most, if not all speed limits but the maker isn’t responsible (yet!) for limiting its speed.  Similarly, you aren’t compelled to reverse so they might argue that, in the same way that you should leave home in sufficient time to get to your destination without speeding, you could plan your manoeuvres to avoid reversing in a restricted road or place.

 

Hardly practical I know - and unattractive to potential buyers but possibly enough for them to avoid any liability to modify your existing vehicle. 

It's a Nissan Leaf, not a Nissan Cinderella. It doesn't need to be home before the clock strikes twelve.

 

My car is capable of exceeding the speed limit, but it is my choice whether I do this or not. Similarly it is my choice whether I drive the car after midnight. The car has lights fitted, presumably to allow me to drive at night. Problem is that I can't legally reverse it off the drive to do so.

[Shaun Walsh]

15 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Playing devil’s advocate, I’m sure your car is capable of exceeding most, if not all speed limits but the maker isn’t responsible (yet!) for limiting its speed.  Similarly, you aren’t compelled to reverse so they might argue that, in the same way that you should leave home in sufficient time to get to your destination without speeding, you could plan your manoeuvres to avoid reversing in a restricted road or place.

 

Hardly practical I know - and unattractive to potential buyers but possibly enough for them to avoid any liability to modify your existing vehicle. 

It may be capable of exceeding the speed limit but it doesn't do it by itself without the option for the driver to disable it!

[Gary Manuel]

PS it does have an option to set a speed limit.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I wasn’t advocating it as any sort of recommendation for operating the car but pointing out that there may not be any legal obligation for the maker to offer an option to disable or modify the beeper. 

[Gary Manuel]

As I see it, the UK legislation on using a buzzer / beeper at night in a built up area is clear. If Nissan have a get-out-of-jail-free-card to play, it won't be that the user doesn't really need to drive the car at night if he plans his life properly (and doesn't work night shifts). It might be that they argue that the sounder is not a horn, bell, gong or siren. It might be that they argue that it is a safety feature which is there to warn pedestrians day or night. It might just be that the product is type approved to EU legislation and that's that.

 

The bottom line is that they have messed up, combining the reversing sounder and the AVAS into one module. The EU legislation has forced them (and other manufacturers when they catch up) to provide a safety audible tone which cannot be switched off. This is supported by UK legislation. Unfortunately, the non-mandatory reversing sound which needs to be disabled at night within the UK cannot be switched off / reduced in volume on the Nissan as it is part of the mandatory system. 

 

I doubt very much whether I'll get anywhere but I think it's a cause worth fighting. If it makes them consider it for future models then it will have been worth it.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Can you not just shove it onto your drive ?

[Gary Manuel]

Nah, I'll just drive it. I don't like my neighbours anyway 😉