John Stainforth Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Dave, Glow fuel is not a fossil fuel - it's comprised of methanol and nitromethane and some oil (which could be non-fossil). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Posted by Jon Laughton on 31/01/2018 18:18:51: Hey Hoppy! Long time no see....and you know you really want that two stroke model! Hey Jon I might well be tempted but SWHMBO is most definitely not a fan and I know what battles are just not worth fighting!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brokenenglish Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Posted by Jon Laughton on 31/01/2018 18:11:42: Good commentary John - I agree completely! So do I. With all due respect, this is a pointless discussion. If anything "dies" it can only be because insufficient people are interested, so there's no problem. I prefer IC, but I also fly electric because sometimes it's more convenient. I think the OP is being blinded by the "trade" element. The problem for the trade is that anyone who has a broad selection of lastest generation glow engines may never need to buy another engine for the rest of his life(!), which is probably my case. Obviously, the trade can't live with that (literally!), so we're being nudged (brainwashed) into thinking that all smallish planes must be electric and all larger planes should be petrol engine powered, for peanuts in fuel economy... Personally, I think we should all adopt the attitude that the trade should supply what we need. We should not be totally changing our modelling just to enable the trade to sell something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Posted by John Stainforth on 31/01/2018 18:38:02: Dave, Glow fuel is not a fossil fuel - it's comprised of methanol and nitromethane and some oil (which could be non-fossil). Nitromethane is produced by a chemical reaction using propane and nitric acid - propane is a natural gas, ergo a fossil fuel Edited By Dave Hopkin on 31/01/2018 18:46:02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Notman Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Hi All I returned to the hobby and really only knew glow/diesel engines. I was a bit lost with the electric choices. I decided on petrol four stroke to kich me off. I have a Saito 14c and really like it. I am know waiting on the arrival of a 30b. As a kid I loved the small engines even after a few mishaps which almost removed a finger or two. My choice is based on this which really could be seen as heart before mind. I remember dreaming of owning a four stroke but could never afford them at the time can't really afford them now! lol For me there is nothing better than the shiny well made engine although I am no expert with the tuning I do enjoy the learning curve. I feel whatever works for you is right. Cheers Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 For my 2P worth, I am basically a `petrol head`. No, not necessarily petrol motors because they are generally noisy, and I have a few, but there will never be anything electric which will replace the sound of a four stroke, and yes, I have tried a sound system in a small Hurricane. It can only be heard on start up. I have an electric Lancaster, Mosquito and a Hawk, plus many others such as autogyros, electric gliders, quads etc, all of which would either have been impossible previously or not really sensible to fly on i/c power, but I rarely go to the field without an i/c model as well. The trade seems to push electrics because there are so many extras they can sell you to actually fly one. These can add up to quite a bit if you are starting with nothing. With glow you only really need your starter box for most models. Almost every free plan in the Mag. is now for electric, but I see so many queries on this site as to what motor? what ESC? what does `C` rating mean? whereas if it was i/c it would simply be for X size motor. The buy it and fly it brigade usually start with electric but soon get bored after taking up club instructor`s time and expecting someone else to repair the damage because they have no modelling skills. If they had started with i/c then I think that they would have taken a much greater interest. Many in my club have started with electric then realised that they can get far more from the hobby by going down the i/c route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Z Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 My two penny worth, IC is straight forward and easy, electric less so. Arguments about how safe Lipo’s are and tales of puffed packs (and bonfires) still leave me wondering. Yes, I have two electrics, but don’t like the silence and prefer the sound of IC. And I still don’t have a clear understanding of how to be safe charging batteries. My opinion - I’ll stick with IC for my main aircraft and have 12 or so Engines to choose from. All great fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Posted by MattyB on 31/01/2018 16:02:39: I do think 2S glow will die out in the next 10-15 years due to noise, a lack of takeup amongst newcomers and those passionate about it slowly exiting the hobby. Everything else though - electric, 4 stroke glow and petrol - I would suggest has a decent future though, and I can see benefits for all in different types of models. Vive la difference! Why, I bought an ASP 52 in the Black Friday idiocies. To replace a 20 year old Irvine 46, that internally disintegrated. 52 Euro delivered. An hour into running in, its developed, does vertical, thrash it to death, but does not give in, a litre of fuel for a day, if you really try. I am not passionate about two strokes, but they are a bit of sorted technology. It might do 20 years, or not. But why do I not detect death. I'm thinking of doing a 10 lb aerobatic hack. And a 25 cc petrol moter will do it. But I note on E Bay, there is an unrun 120 2 stroke fo 90 quid, no silencer. And Just engines do a powerpipe for 65 quid. Now, 90 quid is a bit dear. But nothing else, for that money will shoot that poor airframe towards the moon faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan M Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Posted by Martin McIntosh on 31/01/2018 21:05:50: Many in my club have started with electric then realised that they can get far more from the hobby by going down the i/c route. That describes me. Electric is superficially easier, especially when pre-packed in a foam trainer, but the interest quickly palls - at least it did in my case. My frustration with light wing loadings, first with a 2200mAh trainer and then a 3,300mAh foam warbird (the latter's 'fakeness' of both appearance and flight was particularly unsatisfying), led to a determination to try IC. A 5lb acro with a 70FS is a completely different flying experience, and has actually given me the opportunity to learn to fly properly. Also the tank is large enough for a safe 12-14 mins, and as it takes me about half that time to get into my stride, if exactly the same acro was electric-powered, that's when I'd have to be thinking about coming in! That's not to say there isn't a place for electric; viz my recent interest in building a smaller hand-launched electric acro for casual or holiday flying off patch. But, as you point out, the industry big boys (the Electricians) know how to seduce people, and the mags need to play along with that to a degree. It would however be a treat to at least sometimes get a free plan and article for IC in the traditional middle range of .30 to .60 or the four-stoke equivalent. Edited By Jonathan M on 31/01/2018 21:56:23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i12fly Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Nitromethane is produced by a chemical reaction using propane and nitric acid - propane is a natural gas, ergo a fossil fuel Actually Bio propane is available -it is manufactured in the Netherlands and a few other places in the world. However only small quantities are imported into UK and these are reserved for commercial use -mainly transport -fork trucks on large sites I believe. Propane is generally manufactured from oil in UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 RIP I.C again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin McIntosh Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I have a few models which have been converted to electric from i/c. In every case they felt strange to fly, not lacking in power but they just did not seem to track through the sky in the same way at all and had a mind of their own. I can only think that this is due to gyroscopic effects since they seemed reluctant to change direction. All of them are now back to i/c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_H Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I went electric originally with my larger models because of the cost and availability of glow fuel, but have returned to IC in the form of petrol 4 strokes (gassers). My biggest consumables cost is a good quality oil (I use Deluxe Power Model 2T-S, mainly because my Saito's are an expensive outlay), I get my fuel fresh from my local service station and if I don't fly for a while I can use any unmixed excess in my car or lawn mower. Instead of a bulky starter battery or 6S flight packs I just need to carry enough 2S packs for the receiver and ignition for the days aviating. Many large glow motors can be converted to petrol (even the smaller 4 strokes such as the OS 26 or the recently released Saito FA30, though these need some basic engineering skill and workshop facilities) and complete conversion kits are readily available online for the larger motors (check out Morris' Mini Motors https://www.morrisminimotors.com/). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnP25 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I read the magazine test reports of the posh electric models where flight times of 4 minutes are made before landing with +20% battery remaining. 4 minutes I ask myself. I enjoy my 12 minutes to timer and know I still have two circuits to land. I also have the expensive puffed packs proving I haven't got my electric power right yet. I feel it is cheaper installing a bigger fuel tank than buying bigger batteries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ Alexander Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Whatever gets people into the hobby... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Smitheman Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 RIP IC. Just send me your engines then.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Crook Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I agree that i.c. power will be around for as long as there is a demand. Many modellers find operating a model engine an essential additional dimension to the hobby. I do think some generalisations have been aired above however. Electric models are not necessarily light and floaty. Half of my all electric fleet are models designed for i.c. power (Ballerina, Sig Cub, Flair SE5 to name a few). Electric power does not necessarily need more support equipment than i.c. It just requires a different set of stuff. Battery maintenance can be a bit time consuming, but the rest of the power train is virtually fit and forget, once a suitable combination is chosen. There is plenty of information now on how to do this. Finally, having operated i.c. engines for 30-odd years before gradually migrating to totally electric, I don't agree that the former are simpler to use. Familiarity may make it seem that way, but if it were true surely Brian Winch would have trouble filling several magazine articles each month. That brings me back to my opening comment. I read and enjoy all of Brian's articles, and although I choose not to indulge in it myself, it is a window to that "extra dimension" to the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Personally i like electric. I gives me ample opportunity to mock one of my club mates as he struggles to haul a hundred weight of leisure batteries down the long path to our field. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 My view is that most of you are looking at this the wrong way basing it purely on the here and now. Dave Hopkin has got it exactly right. For the future you have to consider where the investment is going. The 2 greatest examples are mobile phones and cars. How much of their R&D budgets are being spent on developing combustion engines of one sort or another. Now wonder how much is being spent on electric motors and storage equipment. The reason we are able to buy electric drones and planes now is because of the growth of the phone industry investing in development. And now car manufacturers are following suit. The former due to demand, the latter due to environmental and legal reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Laughton Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 No Andy I am absolutely not looking at this the wrong way - I strongly want and prefer to fly ic rather than electric irrespective of technological developments that I am quite happy to take advantage of in my smart phone etc although I dislike electric cars also! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 My point is not about what we want, its about what will happen. The original thread was questioning the death of IC with many arguments about technology and comparisons. But they were based on the whole upon the here and now. I personally love a 4 stroke, but going forward whether we like it or not, simple economics and environment pressures will take over and electrics will be cheaper, easier, even more available, and safer. What we should be doing is embracing these advances in technology to help grow the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Any of you future gazers care to tell me who's going to win the FACup, Grand National, so I can win a few bob. You pay for the bet, bet, I take the winnings. PS, has anyone actuality done an environmental impact assessment for I/C and electric. Flat ascertions are acceptable in politics, but we are better than that here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Does anyone have the reverse experience with flight times on their electrics, to wit flying for longer using volts and amps? "has anyone actuality done an environmental impact assessment for I/C and electric. " Plenty have, if it is cars we are talking about. IIRC electric comes out about neck and neck with existing petrol. The picture changes, unsurprisingly, a lot if you are allowed to assume the car is charged from "green" power stations supplied by the magic electricity fairy. It'll be this second picture you are sold with the visions of silent tree hugging automotive nirvana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan M Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Posted by Trevor Crook on 01/02/2018 08:34:51: I do think some generalisations have been aired above however. Electric models are not necessarily light and floaty. Half of my all electric fleet are models designed for i.c. power (Ballerina, Sig Cub, Flair SE5 to name a few). Guilty M'lud! But I was referring to beginners to RC being directed to lightweight electric, which is perhaps a different discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wright Stuff Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 There is no way we can reach a consensus unless we first define what we mean by 'death'. Do we mean continued development and new products? Do we mean the ability to continue to buy existing products? Do we mean the point where it becomes a minority interest? Do we mean the point when it's for retro or nostalgic flights only? Or the last drop of methanol consumed by the last stroke of the last IC engine on earth? Until we are all talking about the same thing, we will all continue to re-post the same arguments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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