Chinese vs. The Rest

[Mitchell Howard]

I'm a 30-something newcomer to the hobby, having done a lot of 2 channel car racing as a teenager. When I was doing that, there was no 'Chinese tat' in the market - you generally bought a cheap Futaba to get going, then bought a KR Propo or more expensive Futaba when you got a bit more serious.

I'm now perplexed by the >2 channel radio manufacturers in the world of aircraft. Not how it works technically, that's fairly logical - I'm reading, sometimes the same threads again and again, and watching YT vid after vid, trying to figure out why Western (& Japanese) manufacturers are allowing themselves to become uncompetitive and simply stopping trading like JR. It doesn't take much time to find people suggesting brands like Multiplex-Hitec, Futaba, Spektrum etc have a limited shelf life. It's not difficult to see why - long release cycles, high pricing without justification, poorer as-standard feature sets, poor web presence via thinning user base and single protocol restrictions.

That business, especially quadcopter users, has gone to the Chinese - users rave about the capabilities of OpenTX on brands like Jumper, FRSky and Radiomaster. They're younger manufacturers and it looks like there's some infighting and personnel jumping between brands, but I don't really see anything that suggests it's a really daft idea to buy their kit. The current favourite seems to be the Radiomaster TX16S. They've even developed a reputation for listening to customer feedback and implementing it. I've not spent any prolonged time at a flying field so I'm not sure what the locals are using yet, but I'm intrigued. I don't like the idea that the Chinese tend to copy others and each other. Seems like the basis for the products is Western and they've reverse engineered protocols and shoved them all in one box. What's the next party trick when nobody's left to copy from?

I want to buy Western. I want to support a local hobby shop. I want to read a thorough manual that's not been written in Chinglish. I want to know that quality backup from suppliers is there. I want to know that new compatible OEM kit will be made for the next 5-10years..... but why should I saddle myself with the restrictions? Why should I pay the high prices? I don't see enough problems with the OpenTX units to make me worry about models dropping from the sky.

Perhaps there's an opening in the market for a West-based OpenTX radio manufacturer!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Welcome Mitchell,

The problem is one of cost but there is a high quality EU designed and manufactured system available - Jeti.

The operating system is extremely flexible and fairly easy to learn once you get away from the Futaba style menu systems that many of us have grown up with.

The Chinese have brought down the cost of model flying significantly over the last couple of decades but there are signs that this "bonanza" is coming to an end with far eastern workers demanding higher standards of living and ever rising transport costs - perhaps time for enterprising manufacturers in the West to start planning?

[ken anderson.]

hello and welcome from me Mitchell...……….if it wasn't for the 'Chinese tat' as you call it i'm afraid our hobby wouldn't exist to an extent as it does now...

ken anderson...ne..1 thank goodness for the Chinese input into our hobby dept.

[leccyflyer]

What Ken said ^^^^^^

Welcome to the hobby Mitchell.

You'll probably find that most club fields are dominated by Futaba and Spektrum transmitters, with rather fewer Hitec, Multiplex, Jeti and increasing numbers of Frsky and other Open source Txes. They all seem to work well enough and should still be around for a while yet.

[Dai Fledermaus]

If you feel that strongly about it Mitchell, why not go around you house and get rid of all the 'Chinese Tat' you find. Include all the products containing 'Chinese Tat' and don't forget to include the device you used to make your post.

Edited By Dai Fledermaus on 18/12/2020 18:50:53

[Cuban8]

Mitchell was talking about the tat that did come out of China several decades ago and to be fair, Japan produced its fair share of junk until they got their act together. Nobody saw how China would reinvent itself forty years ago, and within the last few hours they've had a highly successful lunar sample return mission completed. India is the one to watch now and may well come to be a serious rival to China in the coming years. I notice that more and more clothing and footware comes from the subcontinent these days, so they've made a start.

Edited By Cuban8 on 18/12/2020 19:13:11

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Large populations (Worlds over populated cry the West).

Make us cheap stuff cry the masses. Merry Xmas all.

[Matt Carlton]

When the economics of design, production, distribution and sales become as cheap and efficient in the 'west' as they are in China, you'll be able to buy western made 'tat' for a similarly low sum.

However, you might have a hard job trying to convince factory workers, suppliers, distributors, fuel providers and the whole supply chain to dramatically drop their quality of life expectations in order to do so.

The Chinese have brought cheap mass production and efficient distribution into the market and without it, there are simply not enough customers willing to pay more to keep the market moving. Remember that for a lot of people now, that 'cheap tat' represents an easier way into the hobby than most of us had, and even if only 10% of those new entrants stick with it, that's a decent number.

Without it, however enthusiastic we are, there needs to be a substantial market volume for it to be worth companies and investors putting money into. Volume drives efficiency and that drives profit. The Chinese can do volume like nobody else at the moment because of low costs.

Look ahead 10 years and we'll be saying the same thing about African nations, where China us investing billions in order to get a foothold in the next big source of cheap labour and production.

Of course a lot of products are reverse engineered. That's how the world turns. You think that VW, Tesla, BMW, GM, Toyota etc are not frantically tearing apart each others products and employing clever lawyers to avoid copyright and patent laws?

As for your question regarding who will be left to copy from? Well that rather assumes that the Chinese are incapable of invention doesn't it? Rather a dangerous assumption I would suggest. Chinese companies are more than capable of their own r&d and if all the western companies did go bust, all the designers and so on would simply be employed by those Chinese companies on short term product specific R&D contracts. It's such a small world now that R&D can happen anywhere, as long as the main manual/production work can be kept in a cheap and very lightly regulated country.

Edited By Matt Carlton on 18/12/2020 20:14:08

Edited By Matt Carlton on 18/12/2020 20:14:41

[alex nicol]

Oh how things change, when I was a kid (mid late 60's) a fairly common phrase used to run something down was 'that's a real cheapo effort it's made from plastic'............. Don't think it'd stand up to day

[Eric Robson]

Taking of cheap chat and things should be made in this country. the youth of today have no experience of the chat that was produced in this country after the war and through the 60's and 70's . A motorcycle industry that thought no body would buy Japanese and carried on producing the same old thing year after year till it was too late to change. The cars that rotted away after a couple of years and had no end of problems, Where are the British car makers now. ? even R.R. and Bentley are German owned. The British attempts to make radio gear Waltron, Swan, Skyleader. etc. all fell by the wayside . People look at these things with nostalgia but in truth they were not very good . The British were good on ideas and innovations that lead the world but were let down by inefficient working practices and high labour costs.

Prepared for the flack of being unpatriotic.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Martin Harris on 18/12/2020 18:04:45:

Welcome Mitchell,

The problem is one of cost but there is a high quality EU designed and manufactured system available - Jeti.

The operating system is extremely flexible and fairly easy to learn once you get away from the Futaba style menu systems that many of us have grown up with.

The Chinese have brought down the cost of model flying significantly over the last couple of decades but there are signs that this "bonanza" is coming to an end with far eastern workers demanding higher standards of living and ever rising transport costs - perhaps time for enterprising manufacturers in the West to start planning?

Hi Martin. I agree with you on it coming to an end - recently looking at some Banggood items I found they were price comparable with EU/UK stock. Either they're not exporting enough or they've lost business to Western manufacturing sites, presumably through poor quality goods or service. They're the only things that put me off Chinese stuff really.

Now you mention Jeti, I understand they're also quite young - I also understand they occupy a pricepoint that excludes other manufacturers from competing. You might spend £2k on a Jeti radio, but those same features from a Chinese manufacturer requires a much lower pricepoint to get people to buy-in and mitigate against risk, like the Radiomaster.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by ken anderson. on 18/12/2020 18:10:19:

hello and welcome from me Mitchell...……….if it wasn't for the 'Chinese tat' as you call it i'm afraid our hobby wouldn't exist to an extent as it does now...

ken anderson...ne..1 thank goodness for the Chinese input into our hobby dept.

Let's not get too hung up on my use of the word tat. Everything is built to a specific standard. In an economy that isn't used to building high quality, the majority of manufacturers are learning. This is borne out with radios like the Jumper having problems with hardwired ribbon cables coming loose, and the consequent copy by Radiomaster having connectors between PCBs.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Dai Fledermaus on 18/12/2020 18:47:31:

If you feel that strongly about it Mitchell, why not go around you house and get rid of all the 'Chinese Tat' you find. Include all the products containing 'Chinese Tat' and don't forget to include the device you used to make your post.

Edited By Dai Fledermaus on 18/12/2020 18:50:53

You've inferred I've written my OP as a sleight on Chinese manufacturers. I thought my post was balanced and posed plenty of questions. I don't need to go around the house, ta. Of course there's Chinese stuff in the house. Horses for courses though - nobody's car is made in China - Christ, even VW and Merc couldn't get the required quality standards from even Romanian factories initially. I read that theft was a massive problem.

We all put multi-kilo models in the sky - it's a reasonable question to ask - is it safe and reliable? Is it OK to accept that the software is put together not by a commercial concern, but by Open Source hobbyist devs? It's not as open as we might think either, FRSky and Jumper have both tried to prevent other manufacturers using OpenTX.

'Tat' doesn't imply it's about to fall apart - it means it's generally inferior in most departments, with the upside being low cost. That's a reasonable term to use.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Cuban8 on 18/12/2020 19:06:28:

Mitchell was talking about the tat that did come out of China several decades ago and to be fair, Japan produced its fair share of junk until they got their act together. Nobody saw how China would reinvent itself forty years ago, and within the last few hours they've had a highly successful lunar sample return mission completed. India is the one to watch now and may well come to be a serious rival to China in the coming years. I notice that more and more clothing and footware comes from the subcontinent these days, so they've made a start.

Edited By Cuban8 on 18/12/2020 19:13:11

Whilst I appreciate the agreement, I am suggesting that the Chinese stuff is still inferior, if more capable by virtue of software alone.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by john stones 1 on 18/12/2020 19:27:59:

Large populations (Worlds over populated cry the West).

Make us cheap stuff cry the masses. Merry Xmas all.

Cheap is a financial education away for most people - if I buy a more expensive Toyota instead of a cheaper Vauxhall, I might feel like I've saved some money. Lifetime cost of ownership and residual value is a different story, plus the intangibles like stress. Good example is electric cars - the higher upfront cost with lower running cost is supposedly now at parity with ICE vehicles.

Maybe there's something to be said for longer product lifecycles from Western manufacturers. Less chance of obsolescence. I did see on this forum that Futaba have been messing around with protocols and I understand the new FASST radios aren't able to be sold in the UK?

[Geoff S]

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:10:12:

You've inferred I've written my OP as a sleight on Chinese manufacturers. I thought my post was balanced and posed plenty of questions. I don't need to go around the house, ta. Of course there's Chinese stuff in the house. Horses for courses though - nobody's car is made in China - Christ, even VW and Merc couldn't get the required quality standards from even Romanian factories initially. I read that theft was a massive problem.

Well, a sadly late but very good friend of mine was largely responsible for setting up a facility in Xian, China to manufacture components for RR aero engine. He had great respect for their technical abilites and there was a heartfelt message from his former Chinese colleagues at his funeral. So I wouldn't be surprised if other well-known manufacturers have done the same.

Just as Japanese products were once considered inferior copies, they surely aren't now and the same is becoming the case with Chinese technology. As a very keen motorcyclist in the 50s, 60s and 70s I well remember the shock of the first Honda lightweight motor bikes to arrive en masse on the UK market. They were so far ahead of the established makes they were out of sight. And look at the state of UK motorcycles now compared to their heyday.

You can certainly (and with some justification) criticise the Chinese government's record on human rights and other political 'oddities' but I think criticism of their innovative and engineering talents is misplaced.

Geoff

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 18/12/2020 20:11:31:

When the economics of design, production, distribution and sales become as cheap and efficient in the 'west' as they are in China, you'll be able to buy western made 'tat' for a similarly low sum.

However, you might have a hard job trying to convince factory workers, suppliers, distributors, fuel providers and the whole supply chain to dramatically drop their quality of life expectations in order to do so.

The Chinese have brought cheap mass production and efficient distribution into the market and without it, there are simply not enough customers willing to pay more to keep the market moving. Remember that for a lot of people now, that 'cheap tat' represents an easier way into the hobby than most of us had, and even if only 10% of those new entrants stick with it, that's a decent number.

Without it, however enthusiastic we are, there needs to be a substantial market volume for it to be worth companies and investors putting money into. Volume drives efficiency and that drives profit. The Chinese can do volume like nobody else at the moment because of low costs.

Look ahead 10 years and we'll be saying the same thing about African nations, where China us investing billions in order to get a foothold in the next big source of cheap labour and production.

Of course a lot of products are reverse engineered. That's how the world turns. You think that VW, Tesla, BMW, GM, Toyota etc are not frantically tearing apart each others products and employing clever lawyers to avoid copyright and patent laws?

As for your question regarding who will be left to copy from? Well that rather assumes that the Chinese are incapable of invention doesn't it? Rather a dangerous assumption I would suggest. Chinese companies are more than capable of their own r&d and if all the western companies did go bust, all the designers and so on would simply be employed by those Chinese companies on short term product specific R&D contracts. It's such a small world now that R&D can happen anywhere, as long as the main manual/production work can be kept in a cheap and very lightly regulated country.

Edited By Matt Carlton on 18/12/2020 20:14:08

Edited By Matt Carlton on 18/12/2020 20:14:41

I think we've side-stepped the discussion I was looking to have - I understand why China is cheap and I'm sure you understand the drawbacks to buying Chinese - anything, not just RC gear. The issue isn't whether to buy cheap Chinese or expensive Western - that's a property of the choice, but it's not the issue. The issue is whether the functionality offered in the Chinese package outweighs the supposed benefits of buying Western. I can buy cheap or expensive, it really doesn't matter to me - it could be that long term I'm better with multiprotocol, or that the signal quality is actually not a real problem. Then, the expensive western kit doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I can get on board with the idea they're able to do their own R&D. I've seen it happen, but it doesn't read well to know that FRSky started out horribly unsuccessfully until the copied directly a JR radio.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:24:52:

Posted by john stones 1 on 18/12/2020 19:27:59:

Large populations (Worlds over populated cry the West).

Make us cheap stuff cry the masses. Merry Xmas all.

Cheap is a financial education away for most people - if I buy a more expensive Toyota instead of a cheaper Vauxhall, I might feel like I've saved some money. Lifetime cost of ownership and residual value is a different story, plus the intangibles like stress. Good example is electric cars - the higher upfront cost with lower running cost is supposedly now at parity with ICE vehicles.

Maybe there's something to be said for longer product lifecycles from Western manufacturers. Less chance of obsolescence. I did see on this forum that Futaba have been messing around with protocols and I understand the new FASST radios aren't able to be sold in the UK?

I have no stress I bought Honda, was told "ooh parts are dear" ooh rarely needs parts.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Geoff S on 18/12/2020 23:29:08:

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:10:12:

 

You've inferred I've written my OP as a sleight on Chinese manufacturers. I thought my post was balanced and posed plenty of questions. I don't need to go around the house, ta. Of course there's Chinese stuff in the house. Horses for courses though - nobody's car is made in China - Christ, even VW and Merc couldn't get the required quality standards from even Romanian factories initially. I read that theft was a massive problem.

Well, a sadly late but very good friend of mine was largely responsible for setting up a facility in Xian, China to manufacture components for RR aero engine. He had great respect for their technical abilites and there was a heartfelt message from his former Chinese colleagues at his funeral. So I wouldn't be surprised if other well-known manufacturers have done the same.

Just as Japanese products were once considered inferior copies, they surely aren't now and the same is becoming the case with Chinese technology. As a very keen motorcyclist in the 50s, 60s and 70s I well remember the shock of the first Honda lightweight motor bikes to arrive en masse on the UK market. They were so far ahead of the established makes they were out of sight. And look at the state of UK motorcycles now compared to their heyday.

You can certainly (and with some justification) criticise the Chinese government's record on human rights and other political 'oddities' but I think criticism of their innovative and engineering talents is misplaced.

Geoff

Can I assume then Geoff you'd have no issue flying your models with say, a Jumper radio? I understand they're banned at some flying sites. Serious question, I honestly don't know which way is the right way.

Edited By Mitchell Howard on 18/12/2020 23:42:42

[SIMON CRAGG]

After a l-o--n-g time in this wonderful hobby, my advice would be:

1. Go and find your local club.

2. Establish what make of gear the majority of members use. (Useful if you need help).

3. Read up on all the latest safety info available (Both at the club and the BMFA website).

4. Purchase the relevant gear.

5. Join the club, forget about the Chineese................and have FUN!.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by Eric Robson on 18/12/2020 22:30:30:

Taking of cheap chat and things should be made in this country. the youth of today have no experience of the chat that was produced in this country after the war and through the 60's and 70's . A motorcycle industry that thought no body would buy Japanese and carried on producing the same old thing year after year till it was too late to change. The cars that rotted away after a couple of years and had no end of problems, Where are the British car makers now. ? even R.R. and Bentley are German owned. The British attempts to make radio gear Waltron, Swan, Skyleader. etc. all fell by the wayside . People look at these things with nostalgia but in truth they were not very good . The British were good on ideas and innovations that lead the world but were let down by inefficient working practices and high labour costs.

Prepared for the flack of being unpatriotic.

I won't give you grief, but I've worked in high value manufacturing all my working life and it irritates me no-end when the media associate our manufacturing prowess with the ability to make cars. Before I move on, let's dwell on the success of the Nissan Qashqai - British-Japanese engineering, French engine and British assembly. We make far more complex and valuable products that other nations can't produce. We dominate motorsport. We dominate medical research. Every small business I've worked at has generally been at the forefront of their field.

Whilst I wasn't around to experience the 60s and 70s, I've no doubt that we stopped doing plenty of other things well at the same time. Small scale electronics manufacture must be fairly dead in Europe. However, I'm aware of a company called Hellerman Tyton in the NW who can make cable ties pay their way in the UK, and local to me, a nut and bolt manufacturer who've been there for 20years.

It's not that we're bad at it, just the big companies were so immobile and entrenched in their ways that new methods weren't pursued.

[Mitchell Howard]

Posted by SIMON CRAGG on 18/12/2020 23:50:18:

After a l-o--n-g time in this wonderful hobby, my advice would be:

1. Go and find your local club.

2. Establish what make of gear the majority of members use. (Useful if you need help).

3. Read up on all the latest safety info available (Both at the club and the BMFA website).

4. Purchase the relevant gear.

5. Join the club, forget about the Chineese................and have FUN!.

I've done 1, 3, 4 and 5. When everything starts to become practical again I'll get onto 2.

I appreciate threads like this can look like an obsession. Despite the number of replies, nobody's yet been able to say whether the Chinese stuff is anything more than a toy.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

None of our gear is of military spec. although some are less built down to a price than others. Let's just say that the popular brands perform adequately and our community will quickly alert us to any common failings. Far more models come to grief due to simple pilot error, poor installation practice or battery problems than can be attributed to any radio link or build quality problems.

As I've never seen a Jumper radio or immediately recall mention of them I can't comment on their suitability.

Edited By Martin Harris on 19/12/2020 00:16:52

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Mitchell Howard on 19/12/2020 00:04:25:

Posted by SIMON CRAGG on 18/12/2020 23:50:18:

After a l-o--n-g time in this wonderful hobby, my advice would be:

1. Go and find your local club.

2. Establish what make of gear the majority of members use. (Useful if you need help).

3. Read up on all the latest safety info available (Both at the club and the BMFA website).

4. Purchase the relevant gear.

5. Join the club, forget about the Chineese................and have FUN!.

I've done 1, 3, 4 and 5. When everything starts to become practical again I'll get onto 2.

I appreciate threads like this can look like an obsession. Despite the number of replies, nobody's yet been able to say whether the Chinese stuff is anything more than a toy.

The Chinese stuff is as much a toy as much of the other stuff. The Frsky gear is decent quality, widely used and works. There are lots of posters in this forum who successfully use Frsky gear. There is even a poll somewhere.

[GrumpyGnome]

Jumper radios are banned at some flying sites? If there was a widespread issue, I would have hoped for some sort of communication from, say, the BMFA....

Possibly just a few over-zealous committees who feel the need to exercise their 'power' based on rumours?

I don't see t'internet (including YouTube) showing lots of issues tbh - certainly no more than for most other brands; excluding Jeti and Core - but not sure this is more down to user base than absolute reliability and quality.

I own an FrSky X9D. Hugely powerful OpenTX allows far more than I will ever need, and the cost means if it becomes obsolete, I won't cry as the initial investment was relatively low. As for reliability, I have had approaching 1,000 flights on it with zero, yes zero, issues.

At my club, the most common kit seems to be Spektrum, followed by FrSky, then Futaba, then a handful of others (FlySky, Radiomaster, Jumper, Jeti). One newcomer's rationale for FlySky was that he could get 2 complete sets (Tx and Rx) for around £100 so if he needed buddying, he could supply master and slave, so there was no need to go with popular choice. Help and support in doing anything is limited because of the software but he has no need to do anything fancy so that's not a big issue. What is amusing are the WotsApp chats about setting up Spektrum medium/high end stuff..... seems VERY complicated

GG

P.S. all the stuff re telemetry, s-port, sbus etc. for FrSky passes me by too at the moment!

Edited By GrumpyGnome on 19/12/2020 05:55:09