Old and Discontinued Lasers. Do not buy

[Jon H]

A bit a plea for everyone to stop buying the old and discontinued Laser engines on ebay or in old models. 

 

These engines are the 45, 50, 61, 62, 75, 90, 120v, 150v and 180v. 

 

They were all discontinued by 1992 and are easily identified by a glowplug facing forward at an angle and screws in the side of the head for attaching carb/exhaust. (see photo below)

 

 

If you see one, or are offered one just walk away. Most are utterly ruined, they cannot be serviced, no parts are available and i cannot help fix them. 

 

The problem is many look good on the surface, but are a mess under the skin. 

 

This has come to my attention again this week with 4 people contacting me regarding these older engines bought on ebay or whatever and they are all very disappointed. Its the same story every time. 

 

The 62 in David Davis's thread is what has finally prompted my posting this as it is a perfect example of the problem. He got the engine looked ok, and it ran ok (once the carb and exhaust were in the right holes) but had a pulled head bolt and cracked prop driver. I offered to fix it as a bit of a weekend job just to help him out as it seemed simple enough. The problem is, the engine is here now and a deeper investigation reveals that 4 of 5 head bolts have been stripped out. 2 have helicoils in them already but are a mess, one seems to have a brass plug squished into it and then a tap run though, and one is the original failure DD reported in his thread. The prop driver is also cracked as we knew, bearings are finished, the conrod is on its last legs, and both cams are badly worn and need to be replaced. The exhaust cam has broken 2 teeth so i am shocked it ran at all. This is not DD's fault, all the damage to the engine is historic and he has just been the victim of someone flogging him a pup, but the end result is the same. An engine believed to be in need of a small repair is now virtually useless. 

 

The total cost were i to service this at Laser? Around £240. A brand new 70 is £220. This is why we dont service these old engines any more. Like old cars, they end up being money pits. 

 

So please stop buying them unless you want to play and fix it yourself making parts on your lathe. Generally though, If you are offered one, walk away. if you inherit one and its not running, dont sell it, just drop kick it into the weeds, throw it in a lake, weigh it in for scrap, whatever. Just get shot of it.  

 

Getting involved with these old and worn out engines just results in throwing good money after bad, and while there are many in good condition out there more than 10 times that number are junk. Dont get involved guys because i cant help you and it makes me feel bad. Often disappointed people are mean to me as well, like its my fault they bought a dog. This is also not very enjoyable. 

 

If ever you are unsure about an engine on ebay just call or email  and check if its worth it. It might save you a great deal of hassle. 

 

I will do what i can to save DD's engine as a favour to him (i did volunteer my services) but i cant do that with all of them. 

[ken anderson.]

ok Jon, message received....but i thought that lasers went on and on and as such they had their followers that would do anything to keep them and the legend status going? Surely they cant all be throw away jobs if the owners are keen to preserve them. I've never owned a one but the dates you mention i know a couple of owners of them who swear(sorry mods) by them...as fuelling up starting and going...without any problems.

 

ken anderson...ne..1..laser dept.

[Don Fry]

Ken, I’ve got a very early 75, short exhaust version. I know it’s history from new, and I bought it for very little from a tinkerer. It has done me a lot of hours, once I removed the timing issues…….

It trundles on.

But it has got to be a biro,  when it breaks, it’s in the bin. It will probably outlast the stress free life of the ancient airframe it trundles about in. I might shove it in the stress free replacement when the oil soaked airframe is condemned or falls apart. Mind I’ve got an 80 which is a direct bolt in replacement.

 

Jon’s point, given the age of these things, would you comment, if a Ford Main Dealer, was a bit reluctant, to do a service on a Mk 1 or 11 Escort. That how old they are.

[Ron Gray]

Interesting post, more so as I am soon to get a 150v! To be fair I am quite prepared for it to be a basket case in which case it will become an ornament but it will be a bonus if it runs (well). 

[David Davis]

I've got one of those Ron!

 

Bought it at the Exeter club's much missed end of season sale decades ago. Paid strong money for it too, £150 as I recall but it had been recently overhauled at the factory and it had a bill to prove it. It used to fly my WOT 4 XL with authority until the airframe went up in smoke in the same LiPo fire which destroyed my Big Guff.

 

One thing's for sure, if it wears out, I'll trade it in against a new one! 

[J D 8]

  Many older engines do go on if given some care and maintenance , things are very similar in the Land Rover world, a vehicle that can last a long time [ mine is thirty and still in good order ] but boy there are some real dogs out there sold for silly money on the reputation of the ones that have been cared for.

[Ron Gray]

1 hour ago, David Davis said:

I've got one of those Ron!

 

Bought it at the Exeter club's much missed end of season sale decades ago. Paid strong money for it too, £150 as I recall but it had been recently overhauled at the factory and it had a bill to prove it. It used to fly my WOT 4 XL with authority until the airframe went up in smoke in the same LiPo fire which destroyed my Big Guff.

 

One thing's for sure, if it wears out, I'll trade it in against a new one! 

Must admit that I haven’t yet thought of an airframe to put it in yet but need to make sure it runs ok first.

[Jon H]

As i mentioned in the OP, there are good ones out there and if you have one, great, carry on. What i am suggesting is you not by the crusty old nail you see on ebay or at a swap meet/bring and buy in the hope that it will be as good as you hope it will be. 

 

Ken's post is interesting as it comes from a different point of view to my own, at least, it does with my work hat on. 

 

WIth my Laser hat on i will say that a laser engine is a mechanical device that will eventually wear out as not even a laser can defeat the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The amount of time it takes for this to happen will vary depending on how it is cared for. The problem is, the engine you buy on ebay or inherit from a passed modeller has likely been left in a shed for donkeys years and is either rusted solid, worn out, gummed with castor, or a mix of all of them. Handing over you hard earned cash for that is not good value as you cannot rebuild it if it needs parts. Say you bought a 62 for 20 quid, total bargain. Ok, so the carb is missing its needle...well those were discontinued in the mid 90's so you need a new carb and thats 50 quid. The exhaust is the old type, quite loud and it could be mangled, missing, or blocked with castor. Thats another 30 quid. So, you are now £100 into it and you dont even know if it will run. This is why i stopped selling carbs and exhausts for them. I was taking money off people and then washing my hands of the whole thing if the engine needed any other work as i have no parts. It didnt seem right. Even if you do the work yourself  and add another 50 quid in parts (bearings and valve springs from me, piston ring from the bloke on ebay) you are paying 150 quid for a 30+year old engine when you could buy a new one for £220. Seems like bad value to me. 

 

But, i can also see the other side where its just fun to fix things. Like my thread on that ruined OS40 i did last year. It was a mess, but it is now a useful engine again. However, i didnt call OS looking for parts as i know there are none, i just made the best of what i had. 

 

If you buy one of these with your eyes open and are prepared to take a punt/fix it up on the myford then fine, have at it. But i suspect most of us just want an engine that works and these old nails arent that.

 

To clarify a few other reasons for this stance to bin the old engines their construction/material selection means they are finished. 

 

Specifically:

 

Valves. These were soft and their heads are eventually eroded to the point they fall off. Valve stems also get peened to death. New ones different design in hardened stainless

Rockers - Aluminium rockers wear out, new ones are a different design in hardened steel. 

Cranks - these were soft and the pins wear. New ones made in tougher material, lightened and hardened. 

Conrods - Big end bushes wear. New ones use different bush material, tighter tolerance and better lubrication but cannot be used with old cranks with soft pins 

Piston rings - Wear out as all rings do or go rusty. All current range engines use different bore sizes so rings are unavailable. 

Liners - Hardened steel liners wear out or more commonly rust out. Once oversize compression is lost and performance poor. Chrome plated liners wear through or more commonly are damaged by rusted rings or debris ingestion. Again, current liners are a different design and different bore size. Spares are not available. 

Carbs and exhausts are no longer available, current items are different design. This was done deliberately to break compatibility as explained before. 

Cylinder heads. Ports in the head wear as the grubscrews securing carb and exhaust were not a great design. They come loose, carbs rattle and egg out the ports. Eventually the seal is lost. These heads are long gone so no spares. 

Cylinder head bolts - Rear head bolts were centre drilled and tapped for the rocker cover screw. If you round it off, loose or break it, enjoy trying to tap an 8ba hole down the middle of a 4ba bolt. 

 

When written out like that it sounds pretty awful, but these are the realities of buying an engine that could be 40 years old. Engines made after 1992 are much better designed, better built and while they might still be in an awful condition, i can at least provide spares and support. 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Jon - Laser Engines

[Nigel R]

agree with all the above

 

if you buy a nail, you have a nail, no amount of polishing will stop it being a nail

 

having bought a few second handers you have to be prepared for it to be a dead loss, or to break it up and sell the workable bits, or, you are a dab hand with a mill and lathe and can whip up a few replacement parts

[Paul james 8]

Agree with everything that Jon has said but I still collect the older engines and have facilities to make replacement parts.   I do this as part of my hobby, not as a business.

 

Please get in touch if you have any older ones that you can't use as I could be interested, if not to rebuild then possibly for spare parts.

[Walts]

A very honest post John, and showing genuine concern for fellow modellers too, at a slight risk of damaging Laser's legacy, well for older models anyway. So one can only commend you for that. These old models still command quite serious money when ever they do come up for sale, so It's good to have a heads up on what to avoid. Finding any Laser for £20 would be a miracle! They all seem to go for £100 upwards, which is a fair chunk of money to end up throwing in the lake! So once again thank you for the valuable insight! 

[Chris Walby]

IMHO, its a strange old world as some time ago someone brought a load of old models and spares for people to select what they wanted. After the dust had settled I had a look through and in a box was a Laser 62 and spare bent crankshaft. Conversed with Jon and the advice was do nothing, if it runs enjoy it if not bin it (give it to the Scouts to pick to bits) cost nothing.

 

More recently some more models turned up, one with a very nice looking OS AX 46 (could be a bag of poo) in among a bunch of other models. I left it a few weeks and suggested to a committee member what I would pay for it as no one else wanted it and he suggested a figure twice what I suggested. I just said I would leave it to someone else. I expect it will go in the bin in the end. As they say "its only worth what someone will pay for it" and Jon is just being very clear about what is supported by Laser engines from a spares perspective.

 

As mentioned in previous posts if its looked after it will last years, if its abused then it won't just it might look shiny on the outside.

 

[kevin b]

Jon.

If people are happy to pay 50% the cost of a new engine for a 30 year+ one (whether it runs or not), then obviously you are not charging enough for them new !

 

?

[Don Fry]

Better question, why is a Laser cheaper than an OS / Saito motor.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Not coming half way round the world from a strong currency with import duties to pay and via distributors and retailers taking a cut?  Being built by an enthusiast from parts CNC machined during downtime on larger commercial orders by the parent company?

[Don Fry]

Martin, half way round the world, in a batch, 2 quid a motor.

Duty, from Japan, ( don’t quote me,)  but I think is duty free. 
And my butcher kills his own, and he charges, no middleman, take it or leave it, and I’m in the queue. Nice meat, and the duck is to die for. No discounts, he takes the middleman’s and retailers cut.

No such thing as down time. Non profitable output works as long as the owner enjoys or values the kudos of the product.

But I have made this point before. Why is a Laser cheaper, and a boot full cheaper. 
I like OS motors, and they fit airframes built for them. And the Laser is a bit more difficult. The world says it’s the engine of choice for bespoke scale builders. 
Tough as old boots. 
Why cheap?

Jon will say, I will not rip people off. And socialist respect at this point. But no one accuses OS of a rip off, and I believe his battles with his boss might be easier with a stronger bottom line.

 

bit missing, it’s Japan’s problem the Yen is strong, not Jon’s. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Don Fry
Bit missing

[Cuban8]

19 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Better question, why is a Laser cheaper than an OS / Saito motor.

No importer's/distributors profit and no margin by a retailer. Obviously, VAT will apply but I'd have thought buying direct from any manufacturer will be much more cost effective and mutually beneficial in not all, but many cases.

My greenhouse and garden shed came direct from the maker and both were considerably cheaper than going through a garden centre or buildings supplier.

OS and Saito must be wondering what the next few years will bring for them, given that the demand for and hence sales of their IC engines has bombed over the last few years. Will they consider the high end market alone to be big enough to bother with?

Will they go extinct like the budget brands? who knows? Maybe Laser will be like the tiny first mamals who capitalised on the demise of the dinosaurs?

[kevin b]

3 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

Maybe Laser will be like the tiny first mamals who capitalised on the demise of the dinosaurs?

Maybe, but the tiny mammals got eaten by the fat cats.

Something we are very familiar with in this country.