Stephen Belshaw Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 I'm living in Hungary and buy my modelling supplies from a mix of HK, EU suppliers such as Lindinger and some UK dealers. The same applies to other stuff that I buy online. Post Brexit UK goods shipped to the EU should be VAT free, the buyer paying local VAT and duty on receipt of the goods. I have found this usually works one of two ways, either the goods are shipped free of UK VAT or I have to go back to the supplier after the event and claim a refund. I have just been notified by Hungarian customs that I have a package of modelling stuff on it's way and what it will cost me in tax, duty and admin fees. I went back to the UK supplier enclosing the documentation to request a refund of the UK VAT. His reply was that "our accounts are not set up to do this". I would have thought a simple process to refund the money, (or better still not charge it at source on exports) as they are a VAT registered business there will be provision in the VAT returns paperwork to accommodate this scenario so I'm struggling to see what their difficulty is. I'm not even sure if this practice is legal? As it stands I've paid double VAT and will not use this supplier again , EU suppliers seem to manage the paperwork with no problems accommodating the different VAT rates in member countries. Have any other overseas forumites encountered this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Colman Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) Hi Stephen, I live in Spain and I've not had this particular VAT problem as I don't buy products from the UK anymore. However, my Mother likes to send me a few goodies from the UK now and then, often including the RCME mag and some Bassetts Jelly Babies (which my Spanish girlfriend loves) and are non existent over here. This has become financially unviable because my mother now has to pay extra postal charges to send the item and I now have to pay the post office here in Spain to receive the item. For example, I now have to pay a minimum of 5.50 euros for the aforementioned RCME mag and Jelly Babies on top of the item price and postage cost from the UK; the total for the RCME mag was around 15.00 euros which is stupid money. I've also read of stories of peoples sending gifts in both directions and having to pay quite significant sums of money at the destination country in order to receive their gift. Edited January 7, 2022 by Steve Colman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis Watkins Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 The supplier in the UK needs to Zero Rate the transaction before collecting the payment. From HMRC Below VAT on exports VAT is a tax on goods used in the UK and you do not charge VAT if goods are exported from: Great Britain to a destination outside the UK Northern Ireland to a destination outside the UK and EU . You can zero rate the sale, as long as you get and keep evidence of the export, and comply with all other conditions. You must also make sure the goods are exported, and you must get the evidence within 3 months from the time of sale. This can be longer for goods that need processing before export and for thoroughbred racehorses. The time of sale is the earlier of the day you: send the goods to your customer get full payment for them You must not zero rate sales if your customer asks you to deliver them to a UK address. If the customer arranges to collect them from you (an indirect export), you may be able to zero rate the sale as long as you meet certain zero rating conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EarlyBird Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 28 minutes ago, Denis Watkins said: The supplier in the UK needs to Zero Rate the transaction before collecting the payment. Yes this is the way it has always been for exports abroad, which now includes the EU. It looks like the supplier is not set up for exporting goods and zero rating VAT in their accounts system. It would be helpful if you gave the suppliers name so that others don't make the same mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 The VAT thing came as quite a shock to Laser and it was only because i noticed something i wanted to buy from Germany had dropped in price by the VAT amount that we knew anything about it. Consulting the various govt pages and our accounting people left us with 5 different answers on what we were supposed to do, all of which were contradictory. We do drop the VAT on exports but as i have mentioned before Laser have had to pull out of the European market (which accounted for 30-40% of our sales) almost completely as its simply not viable. Half of the packages either go missing completely or are returned for 'incorrect paperwork'. This latter point is rather sore as nobody seems to know which paperwork is actually correct as every variety we use gets rejected at some point. The half that do get through sit around for 10-12 weeks and then the customer pays around 60% the value of the item in fees and taxes, they then take another 2-3 weeks to decide to post it on to the customer where it becomes apparent it is damaged as they took it all out of the box and didnt repack it correctly. That or the allen keys fall out and they dont bother to put them back in. Add to this the added time wasted to fill out the paperwork, constant emails with the customer chasing their engine, chasing up tracking details etc means its simply not worth selling the engine. its just a nightmare and its only going to get worse now the 'soft' customs rules of last year have lapsed into the full fat rules going forward. While i cant say what the situation is at the company you used, i can say is that from my own experience dealing with it the whole thing is a complete shambles and i think we are going to have to set up an eu distributor as sending individual packages to individual people is simply not an option any more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Z Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) I am in the EU (NL), and I buy regularly from China exporters like Aliexpress and Banggood. They are paying the VAT that is due in NL and charging it with my purchase, and the goods are getting through without having to go through customs (up to a value), and the Postal Service does not charge handling costs. It does mean that prices have gone up, particularly for small items ( < 20 euros) that usually came through without customs/postal fees anyway. I believe they are able to do this as they have joined the OSS (or IOSS?) EU organisation, not sure how that works. Ali and BGG have appropriate notices on their websites. Max. Edited January 7, 2022 by Max Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Cardin Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 My current experience is the same that of Steve! I also live in Spain and this December is the first time in 45 years ordering plans from UK that I had to pay fees for receiving them. Even publisher noted a lower price than real on the "Green Card" sheet, I have been charged 5.50€ for customs clearance and then 2.00€ more for delivering the shipping to my home, all by Spanish Postal Service. I think it will become unavoidable here, so the solution is to make large orders so that the extra 7.50€ charge may be better assumed. Other point is the seller didn´t detract the UK VAT from the order, so I will ask about it on future orders..... Finally, my experience with shipping reliability does not match that of Jon from Laser: During the 45 years I have been ordering from overseas (UK, USA, Gernamy, Belgium, Australia,....) I never had any problem correctly receiving my goods but just for one purchase on Ebay from UK of a Gordon Whitehead book on Scale Models 3 or 4 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said: i think we are going to have to set up an eu distributor as sending individual packages to individual people is simply not an option any more. "warehouse" in N.I. ?? They're both in and out of the EU at the same time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Z Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Max Z said: I believe they are able to do this as they have joined the OSS (or IOSS?) EU organisation It's IOSS, read this: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/ioss_en Edited January 7, 2022 by Max Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Belshaw Posted January 7, 2022 Author Share Posted January 7, 2022 Thanks for the replies, it's certainly a minefield for suppliers and customers. The HMG excerpt that Denis posted makes it clear that suppliers should not be applying VAT on exports but either the seller isn't aware or doesn't care, I'm happy to pay the duty and admin fees for items that I can't source elsewhere, and buy knowing this, but not double VAT! The supplier in question is 4-Max, the website states that they ship overseas (excepting batteries) and has an online calculator for shipping costs (which are reasonable), it would be helpful if they also explained their VAT charging policy too. Steve Colman, I subscribe to the RCM&E print and digital edition - £72 a year delivered to Hungary, which I consider great value for money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Quite at random, I've just taken a look at a few of the UK web suppliers that I regularly use, and I have to say that their explanation of the VAT situation to overseas customers seems equally vague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) So could this be an option for you Jon, to pack the engines in boxes and come across on a boat and post them in France ,. Edited January 7, 2022 by Paul De Tourtoulon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 7 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said: So could this be an option for you Jon, to pack the engines in boxes and come across on a boat and post them in France ,. Ugh. it would be like being in the 18th century. Anyone from Cornwall got a boat? Or perhaps a drone in these modern times ? I suspect we would end up in chains though. Smuggling is not viewed too favourably these days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Stainforth Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 6 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said: The VAT thing came as quite a shock to Laser and it was only because i noticed something i wanted to buy from Germany had dropped in price by the VAT amount that we knew anything about it. Consulting the various govt pages and our accounting people left us with 5 different answers on what we were supposed to do, all of which were contradictory. We do drop the VAT on exports but as i have mentioned before Laser have had to pull out of the European market (which accounted for 30-40% of our sales) almost completely as its simply not viable. Half of the packages either go missing completely or are returned for 'incorrect paperwork'. This latter point is rather sore as nobody seems to know which paperwork is actually correct as every variety we use gets rejected at some point. The half that do get through sit around for 10-12 weeks and then the customer pays around 60% the value of the item in fees and taxes, they then take another 2-3 weeks to decide to post it on to the customer where it becomes apparent it is damaged as they took it all out of the box and didnt repack it correctly. That or the allen keys fall out and they dont bother to put them back in. Add to this the added time wasted to fill out the paperwork, constant emails with the customer chasing their engine, chasing up tracking details etc means its simply not worth selling the engine. its just a nightmare and its only going to get worse now the 'soft' customs rules of last year have lapsed into the full fat rules going forward. While i cant say what the situation is at the company you used, i can say is that from my own experience dealing with it the whole thing is a complete shambles and i think we are going to have to set up an eu distributor as sending individual packages to individual people is simply not an option any more. What a sad situation! But I remain hopeful that the current madness will eventually be reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) Smuggling, I forgot you are no longer in Europe, and the French are gunning for you,, My wife's stuff from England goes via Italy and my retracts also went via Italy, no taxes there,,, Opps I can't modify my post coming across the Channel, in no way would I ever think of breaking the law,,,,? Edited January 7, 2022 by Paul De Tourtoulon last post,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 I was thinking that, adrift in La manche, fishermen throwing cod, weighed down with Lasers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 21 minutes ago, Don Fry said: I was thinking that, adrift in La manche, fishermen throwing cod, weighed down with Lasers. Salt water might not do the bearings any good ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul De Tourtoulon Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 I can give you an address for Stainless steel bearings, can you throw in a bag of chips and a pennyworth of crackling please ,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 Post removed, the threads fine as is, and of use relating buying/selling experiences, so it will stay open. Posts drifting into politics will be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 (edited) Jon, have Laser looked at using an online marketplace, e.g. Amazon, Ebay etc for export sales to the EU, i believe the new regs makes them responsible for collecting destination VAT on sales, might be an alternative to setting up a distributor. Some Ebay info here https://sellercentre.ebay.co.uk/news/brexit Edited January 8, 2022 by Frank Skilbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.