Help to identify Hawker Tomtit colour scheme from B&W photo

[David Ovenden]

I have a B&W photo of a Haeker Tomtit which was supplied to the RCAF in Canada. Can anyone help with identifying the main colour of the plane. It doesn't look to be silver. Could it be yellow? Or green? It's not the same as the fin flashes (red blue or  white).It seems hard to belive it could be silver, especially in view of the big contrast between the fuselage colour and the Ali cowling and fuselage step. Thanks for looking.

[Shaun Walsh]

You could try contacting BAE Systems heritage section, they have the photo on their website and may have a record of the colour scheme. 

https://www.baesystems.com/en/heritage/hawker-tomtit

[David Ovenden]

A couple more photos that don't really help much as the shades look very different. Maybe it changed colour over time?

The last photo also shows these planes had a different U/C with split axles (unlike the UK planes) Maybe so they could fit skis?

Edited November 28, 2022 by David Ovenden

[J D 8]

   Hi David, I think your pic is of a Canadian Tomtit number 140 [they only had two] but the colour is odd and the roundel looks French ish  Think the pic below is of the same aircraft in what appears to be standard yellow/silver for RCAF service.  Getting some shelter from a Lysander wing. 

[Guest]

Can't help with original colour scheme but this is what it looks like in yellow

 

[Jon H]

The fuselage colour looks similar in shade to this one which was apparently in the hawker royal blue colour 

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.baesystems.com%2Fen%2Fheritage%2Fhawker-tomtit&psig=AOvVaw1-SNb6ZVkESyTzV6hc41nb&ust=1669715200559000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CA8QjRxqFwoTCMjZ4vzL0PsCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAJ

[J D 8]

      I am wondering if it could have been used for some film work in later life.?

[David Ovenden]

JD8 Yes, that's the sa,e plane but with a different colour fuselage. Could well be yellow. Look how much clearer the 140 marking is on the rear fuselage.

[Don Fry]

Second one looks orange. See shade differences between red areas on roundels, and red areas of tail stripes and tailplane. Are literature that the Canadians did orange as a training colour

[J D 8]

           The Split UC was a Canadian mod as you say likely for ski use.  In the snowy in service pic [tied down to old wheels because ground frozen too hard for stakes I recon] the blind flying practice hood is in place.

[Jon H]

I put each image into one of those online ai driven things that adds colour to black and while photos. Clearly its great at grass, but not so hot with aircraft!

 

Still, i think there is a fair chance the darker one was blue and the lighter one yellow/orange. 

 

 

[J D 8]

   The Canadian service yellow did border on the orange, different from that seen on British aircraft.

[Eric Robson]

Wartime photos  often showed up as the yellow appeared very dark with a black appearance. The one you have shown David is probably yellow as it has roundels on, the Hawker racing blue aircraft did not have roundels. Also the roundels pre war were a lighter shade of blue giving that French look.

[David Ovenden]

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. Jon, I've never tried one of those B&W to colour converters. Nice bit of tech (for grass). 

Just got to work out a way to make the oleos attach to the wing in a way that's strong enough to stand up to everyday use!

Think I'll "conclude" it was silver and yellow!

[Jon H]

I think the ai learns from known examples and then recognises whatever it knows in future images. So grass, faces, sky etc are easy to reproduce as it knows them well but the aircraft itself is new so it has a bit of a meltdown. 

 

Still, i do think it shows that there was a change in paint job from a dark colour to a lighter colour. As you say the stencil detail is much clearer on one than the other as well as comparisons with the known red/blue on the fin flash and roundel. 

[J D 8]

                  Other noticeable differences, Different wheels, early looking Palmer cord tires on ww1 style wheels and no exhaust collector ring and the missing blind flying hood suggest your pic is from early service. Cheers, John.

[kc]

Old black and white photos were often taken using orthochromatic film not the more modern panchromatic film.  ( panchromatic only became standard after the 1950's )   Certain colours rendered differently on ortho film compared to panchromatic.  Therefore you cannot easily judge the colours from monochrome photos without knowing whether ortho or pan film was used.    One might guess that most pre WW2 photos would likely be on orthochromatic film with the unusual ( to us ) rendering of blue and red.   Blue comes out lighter and red darker with ortho film.

 

(colour photography was possible from 1861 but  took about 100 years to become common!)

Edited November 28, 2022 by kc

[kc]

Taking the facts about ortho film into account I would say it was taken on ortho ( blue roundel bit is light and red is dark ) and one should judge it from that aspect.   Maybe fuselage is green or brown - perhaps the usual drab colour for WW1 planes.

[David Ovenden]

KC, thanks for additional info. 

The plane certainly was modified during its lifetime (as JD8 rightly points out) and may well have been repainted too. The picture of 140 in the snow with DH style wheels and no fin flashes evidences this. It also looks a much lighter shade that might suggest an all over yellow or silver scheme. I think I will go with yellow as many RCAF aircraft of that era (Tiger Moth, Siskin etc) were painted yellow. So, it will at least be in keeping with contemporary biplanes of the time.  And I already have an all-silver one!

Edited November 28, 2022 by David Ovenden

[Denis Watkins]

You probably saw this in BAE Systems, pre 2 delivered to Canada

But in very small print

Royal Blue with Gold trim

Edited November 28, 2022 by Denis Watkins

[J D 8]

 G-AFTA was the last Tomtit built, restored in 1949 by Hawkers and then flown by Neville Duke [note head fairing he had fitted] before being presented to the Shuttleworth trust and returned to pre war RAF colours. Still resides at Old Warden today.  Had a good look at it some years ago. One of those aircraft that just looked right and was right from the start. 

 

Correction the Head fairing and Spitfire windscreen were fitted for Alex Henshaw when the Tomtit was used as a company hack during the war along with two others that did not survive being wreaked in accidents.

Edited November 28, 2022 by J D 8
correction

[David Pentland 1]

I’ve long wanted to do a Tomtit. Being Canadian I’d do the Canadian one. Looking at other period photographs of R.C.A.F. Aircraft the overall colour comes out very dark. These training aircraft were always painted yellow with a black cowling. I’ve long believed the Tomtit were silver when they arrived from England but at some point were repainted RCAF yellow. What I am less sure about from David’s photos is the colour of the cowl.

[David Ovenden]

Yes, it's interesting that in every photo I can find of the Canadian Tomtits the cowling seem to be silver or (more likely) unpainted aluminium finish. Certainly not black. I think I'll model 140 as per this photo with the DH style wheels in yellow and with no fin flash.

It will be a change from my other all silver Tomtit.

 

[Don Fry]

David, you are on the right side of the puddle. 
We know what RAF training yellow looks like. Someone has suggested that you had a training  yellow, a more orange shade. Any knowledge.

[RottenRow]

In David’s second post (near the start of this thread), with the two photos, I would suggest that both of these photos were taken at the same time and of the same aircraft. The shadows and positions of the prop and control surfaces are identical in both.

The differences in grey tones between the two photos are caused by different exposure settings, and as KC described above, the use of ortho film would account for the colours of the insignia looking wrong.

Brian.