Spektrum GPS modules .... Safe and ASX

[toto]

Can anyone give a bit of a low down on the Spektrum GPS modules used in conjunction with the rest of Spektrums kit ... ESC, receivers and transmitters and so on.

 

I have been purchasing a mix of Spektrum 6 channel receivers recently buying 8 channel receivers trying to build in the potential for the use of their GPS.

 

I am also using the newly released Spektrum Avian motors and their 100 amp ESC's.

 

I am training right now and my instructor would prefer no Safe systems or GPS on my trainers ( an FMS Beaver and a Hobbyzone Carbon Cub ) .... fair enough.

 

However, once I have " made the grade " I am thinking of having these systems on some of my models. I'm thinking GPS fences and the ability to potentially switch on a minimal level of Safe if possible if learning on newer maybe more technically advanced and harder to fly models. 

 

The eight channel receivers gives me a spare channel for the GPS if wanted. 

 

Any comments ... suggestions .... warnings etc would be appreciated.

 

Toto 

[Don Fry]

Toto, stupid idea, 

Having “ made the grade”, you won’t need fences, your eyes and training does. 
If you need Safe, to keep a model in one piece, you will be flying the wrong model.

 

save money, buy stuff when you need it. Consult your instructor, seems a sensible person. 

[toto]

Hmmmmm. I get what you are saying ( I really do ). Even before I asked the question .... not when I got the reply.

 

One of my problems is .... many of the models I'll be flying will be around the sub - 2.0m wingspan size. ( many but maybe not all if things dictate so ). Now .... my instructor says .... 3 mistakes high ( for now anyway ). I find that a strain. I can see the model but depending on the sky / weather, can struggle with orientation etc and appreciating how the model is behaving and the visual feed back that it may be giving. I'll go on the assumption that being a 50 something year old .... that ain't going to improve.

 

Hey .... maybe I shouldn't be flying at all then. I'm thinking I should. Is there anything wrong in keeping the model a bit closer and under confident control. 

 

Another point ( fences ) ..... let's assume that with experience ... and technical competence... that takes a little time, you can correctly set up a model for safe and true flying ...... nothing could go wrong then ..... could it. Well yes, as I am sure we either have experienced or at least heard of ..... the model that rightfully gains its place in the sky after ascent....... and then just keeps going ..... yes .... equipment failure. At least with a GPS signal you have a chance ... albeit by car... to locate it. Probably one ruined model .....but you can rescue the £ 100.00 receiver, the £ 140.00 motor or £ 300.00 ( or more ) engine not to mention the £ 140.00 ECU. .... servos and other ancillary equipment. 

 

With confidence and experience... maybe the Safe systems could definitely go but GPS maybe worth it. 

 

I may not adopt my own suggestion but I'm really just looking at giving myself the best possible chances. Maybe it's just overkill and the money potentially spent on safe, GPS etc would balance off against the potential of replacing a model and it's expensive gubbins. 

 

I'm just throwing the question out there.

 

Toto

Edited May 21, 2023 by toto

[leccyflyer]

The legal requirement for setting of failsafe is aimed at keeping such models as close as possible to the point where loss of control occurred. It's not about saving the model.  Given the superior range of good quality 2.4ghz equipment then, when equipped with SAFE the potential for a longer distance fly-away become greater. If one's model is inherently unstable and has no such aids, if you lose sight of it the chances are that it will soon come to earth, without your input. With SAFE enabled, at three mistakes high, even with failsafe correctly set, the model could easily fly for miles, under no human direct control. The aim of failsafe is not to save the model, it's to prevent long distance flyaways. Initially I thought that SAFE could be a good idea, but I'm increasingly of the opinion that is is actually a bad thing, if it's use allows a model to come to earth a long way from where the pilot is.

[Don Fry]

Toto, back yourself, and the person teaching you. When you get to that stage, you can make your own mind up, but don’t anticipate what you think you might need.
 

You are absolutely right, 3 mistakes high strains the eyes, but you won’t hit the ground. Get a bit better, two mistakes high, you get one chance, and a get wrenching gut wooooooosh as it’s recoverd with a meter or so spare, or not. A bit better, one mistake high, you can see it, but the punishments for mistakes gets more brutal. 
Don’t fly what you can’t walk away from. Simple, cheap, expendable.

[Andy Gates]

Everything Don said.

 

GPS sensors can be useful if the data is logged to view later to check where you have flown (ie into out of bounds areas for instance). GPS sensors can also give speed & height info.

This requires a Tx which can use the data.

GPS sensor will not help much in finding a lost model, eyesight is much better.

 

Not wishing to sound mean here but learn to fly under your instructor before jumping to unnecessary and possibly expensive conclusions.

[toto]

My head hurts ... 

 

So many arguments for every case. Probably none of which can ever be 100% correct for every circumstance .... we forever seek perfection ...... but it's just not there.

 

Toto

[toto]

Missed your post in the crossfire. 

 

I dont consider your post mean at all. I'm maybe just looking for problems that dont exist ..... or at least ..... are ahead of my time. 

 

Toto

[paul devereux]

I have mentioned before that I personally question the wisdom of buying too much stuff right now ( I remember you wanted to buy some spare ESCs etc). Stuff like that naturally accumulate when you crash, and are usually model specific anyway.

As a learner myself, (and I'm in my late 60s) I have wondered about eyesight as well. What I have found is, with practise, you get to learn orientation. What I mean is, you can see the model entering a turn, then at one stage it may be head on to you. From it's silhouette alone it may be hard to know if it is heading towards you or away, but that is only from a still image perspective. In practise, as you know how it has entered the turn, you will know which way it is flying, and this is quickly confirmed when you see more of the plane again. I hope I have explained this clearly, others may contradict me.

Also, my learning plane has no decals under the wings, only on top of them. That helps orientation too.

And I have said before, for me personally, SAFE (with my limited experience) is just confusing. I need to learn what my stick inputs are doing, and I can't judge that if the plane is correcting me. And as for the virtual fence- things have gone very wrong if you are letting a model flyaway while it is under your control.

Edited May 21, 2023 by paul devereux

[Don Fry]

I love you Toto. I too, once, had your enthusiasm.
But just go with the flow. You will get there, a mere stripling. Take tour time, enjoy the journey, there is no warp drive to shorten it. Believe me. 

[toto]

 .... ok .  Until the next stupid question. I did say at the start of my forum journey that there would be many ...... I'm sure that I have not run out of them yet ..... or my quest to rewrite the rule book. 

 

Thanks to all.

 

Toto

[Dale Bradly]

This i completely agree with:

22 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

 

You are absolutely right, 3 mistakes high strains the eyes, but you won’t hit the ground. Get a bit better, two mistakes high, you get one chance, and a get wrenching gut wooooooosh as it’s recoverd with a meter or so spare, or not. A bit better, one mistake high, you can see it, but the punishments for mistakes gets more brutal. 
Don’t fly what you can’t walk away from. Simple, cheap, expendable.

Right now, you are slowly developing a fear of the ground. You're even being taught this "... 3 mistakes high..." and spektrums marketing has told you their electronic products are the answer to this fear.

I recommend once you are competently flying around, get a cheap foamy model, and practice being down low. Work down to 0.5 mistakes high, Do endless circuits, practice aerobatics down low etc. 

this will make you a much better flyer, and remove the fear so you wont need the crutches.

[steve too]

My 2p worth.

 

As @Andy Gatessays, a GPS telemetry sensor can be useful for learning where you are flying. In my experience, most people get the distance wrong one way or the other. Knowing where you usually fly and having the last know location of your model on your transmitter can aid recovery.

 

I see no merit in geofencing for traditional models.

 

I am becoming a bit of a convert to Safe and the like for beginners. There is a guy learning with it at the club were I do most of my flying and it is giving him a lot of stick time and confidence. He was doing some nice circuits today and I expect that he will be in expert mode sometime next month.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

My twopenneth, enjoy what you're doing now and relax, given some stick time your ability and confidence will increase, you'll know yourself if you need gizmos when the time comes, my guess is you won't.

[Andy Gates]

Toto,

 

I love your enthusiasm but please slow down other wise you will burn out and get fed up and frustrated.

 

I keep trying to think of a good comparison to try and use for where you are in this superb hobby / sport.

 

Driving is the best I can come up with.

 

You are at the learning stage and have had a couple of lessons with your instructor with dual controls.

While doing this you have purchased a SUV, a sports car and a campervan.

You are now looking for the lane change system, cruise control and crash avoidance systems and sat nav to compensate for not having your full set of lessons and passing your driving test - all of which you will hardly need once you have passed and got your skills.

 

Listen and spend time with your instructor - it will pay dividends.

Watch the better flyers at your club and see where they position their machines to land and the manner in which they take off and conduct their flights.

 

We had a learner flyer at our site today who has had one session but it was far too rough for him to fly.

If he was to have tried, his previous experience would have been set back.

As his instructor I explained this to him which he understood so he was going to practice a bit more on his simulator to get stick time. I also explained what the next step is going to be  so it gave him something to look forwards to.

[GrumpyGnome]

@totoMy advice would be to stop spending money on stuff you may not need.  Stick with what you have as it's plenty to be taught, go solo, practice, practice, practice........ probably no need to buy anything else for at least 12 months.......

[paul devereux]

1 hour ago, Andy Gates said:

Driving is the best I can come up with.

 

You are at the learning stage and have had a couple of lessons with your instructor with dual controls.

While doing this you have purchased a SUV, a sports car and a campervan.

You are now looking for the lane change system, cruise control and crash avoidance systems and sat nav to compensate for not having your full set of lessons and passing your driving test - all of which you will hardly need once you have passed and got your skills.

 

I think this is so true. Just learning to fly and getting the plane to go where you want it to is exciting enough without complicating things. Though I completely understand your enthusiasm.

[Nigel R]

12 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Don’t fly what you can’t walk away from

 

Bears repeating.

 

And don't buy and fly too much (fast/aero/delicate/bad-handling/complex/expensive, pick any) plane.

 

Flying too much plane makes you scared, scared makes for bad flying, bad flying makes for crashes.

 

Geofencing widgets in the plane, to stop it leaving the postcode? Too much plane.

Gyro to keep it level? Too much plane.

 

Lastly, don't overthink this thing. Learn the basics on a trainer, with your instructor, move up when ready.

[Outrunner]

Toto, as above, fly, fly and fly your trainer until it becomes second nature. When you are not worried about height or orientation and can take off and land in any direction or weather (excluding extremes) and you don't rely on your instructor to help and preferably pass an A test then think about a second model. Forget gadgets and gizmos, just fly and fly. It doesn't matter how long it takes, it's not a race , just fly your trainer.

[paul devereux]

This is an interesting video about ASX. I think it is salutary:

 

[Romeo Whisky]

I echo all that has been said.  With the right trainer model and a patient tutor you'll soon fly better than ASX does!  You'll also feel a great sense of accomplishment which ASX can never bestow on you.

 

We can all lose orientation once in a while, especially when flying silhouettes against a cloudy sky.  The thing to remember is that the model will still be going in the direction you last pointed it in.  You might momentarily skip a heartbeat as a novice and it can be scary, but don't panic.  If the model has been properly trimmed it should keep flying (even hands-off) to give you enough time to recover your sense of orientation. 

 

Of course it's also true that nearly all models revert to kit form eventually as we push the envelope of our flying ability, so if you've got cash burning a hole in your pocket, buy a spare trainer model rather than gadgetry and put the occasional write-off down to experience.

[MattyB]

6 hours ago, paul devereux said:

This is an interesting video about ASX. I think it is salutary:

 

 

Not particularly. All that video shows is the value of triple checking your setup on the ground, and making sure you know exactly which switch does what before you fly a new aircraft. He clearly switched in a mode that almost certainly shouldn't have been present (if you listen he also gets a "head tracking on" audio warning as he flicks it in too, which does not sound right), and that is what caused the loss of the aircraft.

 

PS - Don't conflate AS3X which is just a 3D mode gyro that helps compensate for wind, but does not automated flying for you) and SAFE (whicch has all the features like bank angle limiting, height limits etc).

[leccyflyer]

That guy in the video has got so much going on it's no surprise that he crashed. He was all at sixes and sevens from the minute he picked up his aeroplane to take it to the flight line.

 

I'd love to know how he got the Elevator Mid Rates audio cue though, I've not been able to figure out how to do that - Tosh did say that he had done it on his DX9, but I didn't follow the explanation.

 

Maybe it's an option in the new updated audio files, but I got the impression that it was two audio files playing at the same time.

[leccyflyer]

19 minutes ago, MattyB said:

 

Not particularly. All that video shows is the value of triple checking your setup on the ground, and making sure you know exactly which switch does what before you fly a new aircraft. He clearly switched in a mode that almost certainly shouldn't have been present (if you listen he also gets a "head tracking on" audio warning as he flicks it in too, which does not sound right), and that is what caused the loss of the aircraft.

 

PS - Don't conflate AS3X which is just a 3D mode gyro that helps compensate for wind, but does not automated flying for you) and SAFE (whicch has all the features like bank angle limiting, height limits etc).

Good point, that's been made several times but seems to be getting missed. Nothing wrong with A3X, it helps to smooth out wind and turbulence, but you still have full control of the model. My wee Parkzone UMX Spitfire IX can manage a decent wind speed with the A3X onboard. Very different than SAFE, which frankly is horrible, feels like you have no control over the model and produces a turning circle like the Queen Mary. I switched that off on the second flight with my larger EFlite Spitfire XIV. I can see the point of having the more advanced SAFE on a panic button, to be activated for a second if things go really badly, and have seen some clubmates make very effective use of similar technology to assist in hand launching small models themselves,  but for general flying around I'm not convinced. Just recently I'm thinking that it's not great if it helps models to fly away.

[paul devereux]

IMHO, pilots should learn to fly to Part A proficiency (even if they don't plan to take the test) and become confident, before deciding to use stabilization aids or not. Let's face it, should you been flying the type of plane that requires a gyro if you haven't got the basics? Without pushing the comparison too far, Sully (of Hudson River fame) said something along the lines that modern pilots 'rely on aids and forget basic airmanship'.