Petrol laser

[Rich Griff]

Hi Jon,

 

May I ask please, do you do a petrol powered laser engine, with spark ignition or glow.

 

If so what fuel would you recommend please, supermarket stuff, and what lubricant etc....

 

 

 

Thanks

[Chris Walby]

Why not post the question in "Laser Engines - Technical questions"?

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

You are asking for trouble in more ways than one,,,

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, Rich Griff said:

Hi Jon,

 

May I ask please, do you do a petrol powered laser engine, with spark ignition or glow.

 

If so what fuel would you recommend please, supermarket stuff, and what lubricant etc....

 

 

 

Thanks

 

we did/kinda do. It was CDI, pumped etc and runs very nicely. However, its very costly and complicated to make so we arent sure the value is there for the customer if sold at the price it would need to be. As a result its sort of in a holding pattern while we decide what to do. 

 

if you already have one of our engines do not attempt to convert it to petrol. It wont work and you are likely to break something. 

[Ron Gray]

I can vouch for the GA30, it is a rather nice engine!

[Eric Robson]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

we did/kinda do. It was CDI, pumped etc and runs very nicely. However, its very costly and complicated to make so we arent sure the value is there for the customer if sold at the price it would need to be. As a result its sort of in a holding pattern while we decide what to do. 

 

if you already have one of our engines do not attempt to convert it to petrol. It wont work and you are likely to break something. 

I take it you do not approve of Morris Mini Motors Laser conversion kits Jon.

[Ron Gray]

TBH the conversions that I've seen running (in the air) are not that impressive in terms of performance.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I have the CH ignition system on a Saito 150, it's very poor in performance, 

Petrol 16 x 8, 7.400rpm now 8.200 with a bigger $15 carb, I love fiddling with engines.

Methanol one same prop 8.900 rpm,,,

[Jon H]

3 hours ago, Eric Robson said:

I take it you do not approve of Morris Mini Motors Laser conversion kits Jon.

 

no they really dont work. If converting the engines was as simple as those kits make it look i would have been done in 15 minutes and not still be tinkering 8 years later! 

 

 

[MattyB]

6 hours ago, Rich Griff said:

Hi Jon,

 

May I ask please, do you do a petrol powered laser engine, with spark ignition or glow.

 

If so what fuel would you recommend please, supermarket stuff, and what lubricant etc....

 

Thanks

 

 

Pretty much the whole tale is in that thread; it's a shame but it seems Laser are highly unlikely to ever bring this to production (I'm not quite sure why, as it seemed considerably better than the Saito petrols at that size). 

[Eric Robson]

Hi Paul,  I converted an Os 70fs to petrol it was way down on Rpm but it swung a bigger prop I put it in an Acrowot and it flew very fast but quietly. If it had been a 120 I would have been tempted to put it in the Spitfire 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

They are down in power but over here the methanol is now at 43€ for 5 litres and an exorbitant amount to deliver it as it's an explosive against less as 98° petrol and 3% 'expensive' oil comes out at less than 10€ the same 5 litres, my Saito FA-120 will empty my 2l fuel reserve in my field box in an afternoon, against a 20cc will take a couple of weeks flying, not forgetting that over here some of us fly 3/4 times a week,

[Eric Robson]

2 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

They are down in power but over here the methanol is now at 43€ for 5 litres and an exorbitant amount to deliver it as it's an explosive against less as 98° petrol and 3% 'expensive' oil comes out at less than 10€ the same 5 litres, my Saito FA-120 will empty my 2l fuel reserve in my field box in an afternoon, against a 20cc will take a couple of weeks flying, not forgetting that over here some of us fly 3/4 times a week,

It's the same in England petrol about quarter of the price and more economical, but we can get free delivery next day buying 4, 5litre containers from some suppliers.

[Jon H]

2 hours ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Saito FA-120 will empty my 2l fuel reserve in my field box in an afternoon

 

Good lord. I would expect a days flying on my Sea Fury with that much fuel and its got a 360 in it! Something must be wrong. 

 

9 hours ago, MattyB said:

 it's a shame but it seems Laser are highly unlikely to ever bring this to production (I'm not quite sure why, as it seemed considerably better than the Saito petrols at that size). 

 

There are 2 sides to this issue. First, they are more difficult to make. More parts, more time consuming to assemble etc and a CDI setup which is just an off the shelf cost added to the deal. As an example of their complexity, i can probably finish 5 180 glow engines in the time it would take me to finish 2 (at most) 180 petrol's. The upshot is they will be more expensive, like twice the price expensive, and i simply dont see that being good value for the customer irrespective of how good the product is. This is especially true considering the new low oil fuel reduces consumption, mess, cost, and the whole thing is very simple vs the petrol. The complexity of the install of the petrol, its added weight and reduced reliability (more things to go wrong, its inherently less reliable from a statistical point of view) and its lower tolerance for modeller abuse means it is a hard sell in my view. I wouldnt buy one at the price it would have to be. its not worth it to me as it would take me 10 years to see a cost advantage due to the lower cost of petrol. Although, i use Aspen in mine so i dont think a petrol engine will ever be the cheaper option no matter how long i ran it. 

 

Now, the 2nd part. Not all customers care about value and some want a petrol engine. This could be for a legitimate reason like fuel availability/cost, or it could be due to a fantasy then have in their head about glow being messy and expensive. In either case, from a business point of view i should be able to offer them a product and take their money. With that in mind i have been trying to push the project forward. 5 engines are 99% finished and have been for over 2 years. I am waiting on the final part so i can finish them. After 2 years of asking every day for the part to be finished, i am no closer to them being done. 

 

This brings us to the root of the issue. The boss isnt interested in them. Keeping him enthused is extremely difficult and his interest in the petrol, the inlines and even the new FT310 has waned. The FT200 has his interest piqued, but mostly because it has been so popular. Funny thing is, its been available where as none of the other engines have. Now i cant say its popularity and availability are linked, but you know...they might be. 

 

Oh another issue is our website is awful, and folk are so used to us having no stock they dont bother looking any more. Currently i have all singles and a smattering of twins in stock but sales are dead and have been all year. I suspect a variety of reasons for this, but much of it is our own doing. 

[Eric Robson]

Jon,I know you don't like the carb mounted like other 4 stroke engines, but I know quite a few people who won't buy a Laser because of that. I think you would sell more if they were more user friendly. If it means a slight drop in performance I think many would accept that.

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

There are 2 sides to this issue. First, they are more difficult to make. More parts, more time consuming to assemble etc and a CDI setup which is just an off the shelf cost added to the deal. As an example of their complexity, i can probably finish 5 180 glow engines in the time it would take me to finish 2 (at most) 180 petrol's. The upshot is they will be more expensive, like twice the price expensive, and i simply dont see that being good value for the customer irrespective of how good the product is.

 

...Now, the 2nd part. Not all customers care about value and some want a petrol engine. This could be for a legitimate reason like fuel availability/cost, or it could be due to a fantasy then have in their head about glow being messy and expensive. In either case, from a business point of view i should be able to offer them a product and take their money.

 

Agreed. So, let me check...

• Laser 180 glow - £450
• Laser 180 petrol (projected) - £850-900
• OS GF30 - £675 RRP, ~£610 street
• Saito FG-30B - £740 RRP, ~£630 street

I can sort of see why this makes the boss think there won't be any interest, but I am confident if you could get the engine to £800-850ish, there would definitely be a market for those who would just prefer a Laser (especially as we know the Saito petrols have had their issues), even if a percentage of them only want to collect one. Why is that so bad anyway? People can spend their money on what they want, if someone wants a NIB 180 to put on a shelf that is their prerogative, and if it helps Laser survive long term all the better for it.

 

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Now, the 2nd part. Not all customers care about value and some want a petrol engine. This could be for a legitimate reason like fuel availability/cost, or it could be due to a fantasy then have in their head about glow being messy and expensive. In either case, from a business point of view i should be able to offer them a product and take their money. With that in mind i have been trying to push the project forward. 5 engines are 99% finished and have been for over 2 years. I am waiting on the final part so i can finish them. After 2 years of asking every day for the part to be finished, i am no closer to them being done. 

 

This brings us to the root of the issue. The boss isnt interested in them. Keeping him enthused is extremely difficult and his interest in the petrol, the inlines and even the new FT310 has waned. The FT200 has his interest piqued, but mostly because it has been so popular. Funny thing is, its been available where as none of the other engines have. Now i cant say its popularity and availability are linked, but you know...they might be. 

 

That is baffling - unless something is available, how can demand ever truly be quantified? Maybe time for a scratch poll on here asking how much people would be prepared to pay for this engine (both as a pre-prod deposit and total cost)?

 

Sorry if the following offends anyone(!), but if I were your bosss I would be worried about the "greying" of the traditional Laser glow buyer - it seems unlikely those buyers can be easily replaced as they become less economically active/exit the hobby. To do that you are likely to need new and innovative products to entice a new sort of buyer. I may be way off beam though, I have no ideas what your sales are like today compared to say 10 years ago, though the below statement does not paint a rosy picture....

 

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Oh another issue is our website is awful, and folk are so used to us having no stock they dont bother looking any more. Currently i have all singles and a smattering of twins in stock but sales are dead and have been all year. I suspect a variety of reasons for this, but much of it is our own doing. 

 

Yes, completely agree - your website is just not where it needs to be for a business in 2023, and you have next to no "official" social media presence to keep Laser front and centre in a buyers mind. These are pretty simple and cheap things to fix too, though you do need someone with the right skills and sufficient time to spend on it. Maybe a minimum wage summer job for a media studies student to get the refresh kicked off?

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by MattyB

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Do we have pictures of a GA 30 for various angles ?

 

[Jon H]

13 minutes ago, Eric Robson said:

Jon,I know you don't like the carb mounted like other 4 stroke engines, but I know quite a few people who won't buy a Laser because of that. I think you would sell more if they were more user friendly. If it means a slight drop in performance I think many would accept that.

 

I have considered it. The problem is it would make the engines run worse, and why would i want to deliberately make the product worse? It just makes no sense to do that. It would also introduce all of the problems connected with that sort of design and, in fact, would make tank placement even more critical as any tank than was too high would drip, fill in intake, and then cause a hydraulic lock which may damage the engine. 

 

Maybe ill test one, see how it works out as its been 30 years since it was last tested and i was still at school at the time. 

 

54 minutes ago, MattyB said:

That is baffling - unless something is available, how can demand ever truly be quantified?

 

This is a point i make on an almost daily basis. The reason there is no radial or, until recently, flat twins was because we didnt know the demand/market and it was too risky to invest time and money into new projects. It was only my efforts with a hacksaw knocking up a flat prototype and proving the concept that got the thing moving. Still, the enthusiasm hasnt lasted long. The 360 size is nowhere to be seen as, im told, its production will depend on how well the 310 sells. This makes no sense as someone wanting a 360 will not buy a 310, so basing the production of the 360 on the sales of 310 makes no sense at all...especially when then 310 is out of stock anyway. i want to knock the 360 on the head and go bigger as it would fit the range better, but there is no enthusiasm for that apparently. 

 

I could be here all day writing about how i think we do almost everything wrong, but i have been doing that for over a decade and kinda just dont care any more. My views count for naught so there is little point trying to make a difference. 

 

1 hour ago, MattyB said:

Maybe a minimum wage summer job for a media studies student to get it kicked off?

 

Can i get a raise first? its been 12 years. 

[Eric Robson]

36 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

 

 

Can i get a raise first? its been 12 years. 

The penalty of being happy with your job. 

[Jon H]

4 minutes ago, Eric Robson said:

The penalty of being happy with your job. 

 

Im not though, i hate it. 

[MattyB]

1 minute ago, Eric Robson said:

The penalty of being happy with your job. 

 

Rather a flippant comment - based on the BoE inflation calculator that is a ~29% pay cut in real terms over 12 years. Would you be happy to take that?

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Had a fair few well paid jobs in my time, last bit of my employment history was working for a housing company doing landscaping, not much above minimum wage but regular rises and I was happy there. A good worker with a good history will always find work. Lifes too short to be dreading Monday mornings.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Mattyb how  on earth do you go from £450 to £850+ for a rexel £45 ignition system saito £20 plug and a £20 zama carburettor( Retail prices ) and a couple of bits of aluminium ?.

[Rich Griff]

Its so so sad to here your employment is not a joy.

 

I mean that in the sender of a deaf boss.

 

Your are a well skilled employee and should be appreciated more and highly valued.

 

Keep plugging away Jon, highly character building.

 

I am saving hard for a Lazer, to be used rather than "a possession" but I can see the attaching. To most I think it is a functioning bit of art.

 

Sincerely yours...

Edited July 12, 2023 by Rich Griff

[MattyB]

4 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Mattyb how  on earth do you go from £450 to £850+ for a rexel £45 ignition system saito £20 plug and a £20 zama carburettor( Retail prices ) and a couple of bits of aluminium ?.

 

Don;t shoot the messenger! I just used the information Jon stated in his own post, took the value of the glow from the website and scaled it accordingly...

 

3 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

There are 2 sides to this issue. First, they are more difficult to make. More parts, more time consuming to assemble etc and a CDI setup which is just an off the shelf cost added to the deal. As an example of their complexity, i can probably finish 5 180 glow engines in the time it would take me to finish 2 (at most) 180 petrol's. The upshot is they will be more expensive, like twice the price expensive, and i simply dont see that being good value for the customer irrespective of how good the product is.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by MattyB