toto Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 Alrighty ...... back in the shed ... checked the tail plane as epoxied in last night and all is well. Solid. Next .... a wee easy starter for 10 .............. fitting the clevis's and their tube holders in place .... and here .... and a quick sneek peek at the motor and ESC which has arrived for this assembley ..... and .... and there will be zero soldering connectors in this case ...... there .... an appropriate adaptor to take the sting out of changing connectors over. I will be going on to fitting the control horns for the Rudder and Elevator control surfaces next but I need to go and do a check on the Bowers Flybaby which arrived yesterday .... I did not have the chance to give it a proper going over to check for any potential issues. Leave it too late and any come back ....... is gone. I'll be back toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 28, 2023 Author Share Posted July 28, 2023 OK .... disappointment written all over this post .......😄 No more progress for tonight ..... need to wait until tomorrow night. It could be tomorrow during the day but if that is the case ...... its at the expense of getting some stick time in due to weather .... so if there is a rather deafly absence in the afternoon ..... you can take it ..... I'm working on my wings . either way, I will be continuing on installing the rudder and elevator control horns etc and probably their respective servo's. I will be torn between moving on to the motor mount or starting on the wings. I'd love to leave the wings until the last possible moment to try and avoid and damage with then sitting around in the shed. We'll see. cheers for now. toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 29, 2023 Author Share Posted July 29, 2023 (edited) Well after another non event of a day at the flying field I'm home and back in the shed. As mentioned above .... it was time to make a start on the rudder and elevator control horns, rods and servos. This was not without its trials either. As you can see, the elevator horns had to be fitted at an angle in order to be placed on the elevator section otherwise there was insufficient bearing to take the horn. To be fair the destructions actually show this a bit in one image ..... and then contradict it in another. My preference would have been to have fitted them as per previous builds with the series of pushrod holes being in line with the break in the elevator and main section join ( the hinge line ) its the same with the control horn for the rudder ....... the rudder horn had to be pushed slightly further back on the rudder surface than I would have wanted in order to avoid a potential clash when operating the elevator surface .... not the easiest thing to appreciate from the photo's I have provided. I'll maybe put up more later. and again ...... I get the feeling that I will be revisiting this before long ..... anyway ..... onto the servo's ..... and there are the victims ..... These had been bought for another model but I have just used them on this for now. all the technical bumf ..... an array of different control horns etc as usual ..... and fitted for now ..... Note the use of Z bends ..... 😄 my new favourite .... I will be temporarily installing a receiver and battery etc to play around with the settings and testing the throws at some point soon before going on much further. I'm not over confident with these horns and the way they are fitted. cheers for now toto Edited July 29, 2023 by toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Toto - your elevator control geometry looks off - you shouldn't need that bend in the pushrods and the elevator horns look to be positioned too far back. Ideally the holes in the horns should line up with the hinge line. Do the instructions tell you to introduce that additional bend in the pushrod? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 (edited) Just one or two comments. !: It's better to solder new connectors than use adapters. Just decide on a standard (I've use 4mm bullets in the past but moved to XT60s). 2. It's a good idea to put 2mm lock nuts next to the push rod clevises to keep them tight. 3. Angled horns should be avoided because you need slop in the clevis for them to work. You've already bent the pushrods - if you bent them differently you could have the horns at right angles to the hinge line. 4. If you shorten the rudder horn it'll clear the elevator. The extra movement can be compensated for by using a closer hole at the servo (and/or adjust on the transmitter throw). Personally, like lots of rudder. It's better to have the pushrod attachment over the hinge line to get equal throws Edited July 29, 2023 by Geoff S 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Not directed at yourself Toto, but why when there's a gap at the rear end did they not join the elevators, seems too obivious a route not to have gone, there's also a lot of pushrod sticking out, they should have exited further back. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Toto The bend in the elevator pushrod introduces some flexibility in the pushrod run. This leads to the the potential of flutter affecting the elevators. Flutter is aerodynamic term that relates to the interaction of aerodynamic forces and the flexibility of either the wing/tailplane/fin or the control surface. Flutter is very destructive when it occurs. You should rethink the geometry for the pushrods and the elevator horns so that there is no need for a bend in the pushrod. If there is insufficient strength in the elevator at the point you need to position the control horn, just place a piece of plywoood on the other side and use a nut and bolt to hold the elevator horn in place. As stated above, not having the holes in the elevator horn positioned over the elevator/tail plane hinge line when the elevator is in the neutral position will cause unequal elevator movement. These are not minor issues and you should aim to fix them before flying the aircraft. Best regards Peter 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 29, 2023 Author Share Posted July 29, 2023 OK ..... I was pretty sure I had messed up here ..... looks like I was right. The rudder ...... The above shows ( but not to well unless you can see the horn positioning in the flesh ) that the horn is absolutely mounted on the rudder at an angle. I order to keep the clevis at 90 degrees like they have required, a bend in the pushrod must be introduced. The other issue with the pushrod is that the horn must be mounted slightly further back or it can foul the elevator surface as it deflects. The elevator again the horns must go at an angle and as above with the rudder, in maintaining the 90 degree angle between the clevis and the horn .... the pushrod needs to be bent due to the angle at which it exits the fuselage. They show the horn fixings horns in line with the hinge line ...... i'd love to do that but can't seem to getb that to work at all. I've done two builds where it was a piece of toffee but this is giving me issues. I am finishing in the shed for tonight and going back indoors as my head is bursting....😄 ..... I've done all the shed time I can do for tonight. What I will do ..... albeit tomorrow after my field visit .... is post up some close up pictures of how things are fixed / situated in context with each other .... that may help better to show what I am not explaining very well at the moment. Meanwhile ..... I'll leave you all with another question of two ..... mounting the motor. one motor .... Fitted the back cross plate .... do these screws get Nylock ????? this collett has two grub screws ....... in the absence of any clue in the given instructions that came with the motor ..... I'm assuming it goes into this very convenient place here.. the collett is " stepped " and fits in very snuggly .... again, do the grub screws get the Nylock treatment ??? We move on to the front of the motor ...... and its a belter ..... do these four black machined screws holding the prop support to the can get Nylock ???? and last but not least ..... I've saved the best until last of course ..... The holes in the motor fixing plate do not come anywhere near matching the holes in the firewall that came with the kit. I am assuming I just need to centre this and mark out new fixing holes ? Thanks for all the above comments ..... I am listening and trying to get my head around this. As I said above it will be tomorrow before I can answer any queries relating to the above it they require photo's as I am going indoors after this post. I will endeavour to answer further as your questions are raised as I will be back on as soon as I get the shed locked up. Apologies if I am making this harder than it needs to be ....... a couple of models down ..... and still learning. again, many thanks for all your assistance .... it is appreciated. toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learner Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 One other question for Totos helpers as I am unsure myself. The servos are high voltage and the bec is rated as 5v is this ok or will he have to run a seperate receiver pack 6v minimum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 29, 2023 Author Share Posted July 29, 2023 I think I'll switch off for tonight Toto 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Have a word with John Smith. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 4 minutes ago, toto said: I think I'll switch off for tonight Toto Yes - set it aside until after you've got some flying in - everything's fixable and it'll be there when you get back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 Just drill holes in the right place for the motor mount. Remove the mount from the motor and use it as a template. Also make sure the collet doesn't touch the mount and rub. If necessary, drill the centre hole out more. The collet is there to stop the outer part of the motor which turns and holds the magnets from pulling forward. There's probably no need for thread lock on any of the screws but, if you do, make sure it's not the permanent type or you won't be able to remove them easily if you need to for maintenance. I've never used any thread lock in similar jobs and never had a problem provided the screws were properly tightened, but it's not a bad idea to use some if you choose. Learner: The servos will work perfectly OK on the 5v BEC. It's just that they'll cope with a higher voltage if necessary. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Bradly Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 You dont need the collet. Put it in your spare parts box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 @toto think all your queries are answered..... ideally: Control horns at 90 degrees to the hinge line Control rods at 90 degrees to the hinge line The holes in the control horn should be over the hinge line That collet at the back of the motor is not needed Drill new holes for the motor mount Yes, the four screws bolt the prop driver to the front of the motor (Personally, I put blue threadlock on pretty much everything that's metal to metal) Don't forget to disconnect the control surfaces from the servos before setting up... Hope you enjoyed the John Smiths, and get some flying time today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 30, 2023 Author Share Posted July 30, 2023 Hi Grumpy, I'll revisit this element based on the above. Just to clarify in my head, the disconnection of the control surfaces from the servos would he to allow the servos to " centralise " themselves when initially under control when connected through the TX and RX for the first time. Once the initial " fire up " has been done, re-centre the servo horns to suit ..... at 90 degree's to the servo. .... then re-attach the control surfaces suitably and trim out any final discrepancies in alignment. Does that make sense ? Many thanks Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 30, 2023 Author Share Posted July 30, 2023 Dale The collett's is coming off ..... It will have it's own dedicated space in the spares box. Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 30, 2023 Author Share Posted July 30, 2023 Alright ..... flying is off for today so i will have a session on this. I thought I would delay the progression of the rudder and elevator installation until I have had a good look at it and fully understand the best way forward. As I mentioned above, I will post up some photo's as I look to resolve the issues. I will also follow all the advice on the installation of the motor. The assembly of the motor itself is now fully understood and I'll re-visit it with Nylock and look to centralise " new " motor mount fixing holes in the firewall. I will post up my progress prior to permanently doing anything and give an opportunity for comment. As for today, I thought I would tackle the fixing of the Ailerons and the wing assembly including the servo's. this is a more or less carbon copy of the Arising Star Assembly which I am more than comfortable with now that I have been the the process successfully. I'm off to do my domestics for today which I was hustled into by SWMBO on the demise of any realistic opportunity to make progress on the flying field .... Yes ..... its the dreaded ASDA run. So ..... I'll sign in on my return ...... don't say that you have not had ample warning should you wish to avoid the above ....... 😄 enjoy your day toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 Quick terminology update Toto - you keep referring to Nylock. In my experience Nyloc nuts are specialist nuts fitted with a nylon insert which makes them lock onto the thread and they will not undo on their own. I think you probably mean threadlock - and adhesive product to achieve the same locking of the bolt, or grub screw in the threaded nut or plate. This comes in various formulations fore permanently, semi-permanently or temporarily locking the nut on the thread. Personally I rarely use it, I prefer to just ensure that the bolts are adequately tightened and examine them regularly, but I prefer that they are removable for maintenance. It's less of an issue with an electric model which is subjected to much less vibration, so I can't comment on using threadlock on IC powered models. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 31 minutes ago, leccyflyer said: Quick terminology update Toto - you keep referring to Nylock. In my experience Nyloc nuts are specialist nuts fitted with a nylon insert which makes them lock onto the thread and they will not undo on their own. I think you probably mean threadlock - and adhesive product to achieve the same locking of the bolt, or grub screw in the threaded nut or plate. This comes in various formulations fore permanently, semi-permanently or temporarily locking the nut on the thread. Personally I rarely use it, I prefer to just ensure that the bolts are adequately tightened and examine them regularly, but I prefer that they are removable for maintenance. It's less of an issue with an electric model which is subjected to much less vibration, so I can't comment on using threadlock on IC powered models. Yes, Loctite was very popular with motorcyclists in the 60s and 70s. Motorcycles suffered greatly from vibration despite the road tests which often referred to 'a slight tingling felt through the handlebars'. My brand new 1965 BSA 650 suffered so much vibration it was impossible to read the sign posts on the motorway at 90mph (legal then) because my eyes were vibrating so much 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 30, 2023 Author Share Posted July 30, 2023 Hi lec flyer, Thanks for that. The app.ication to which I refer to in the above is the fixing of the motors " cross mount " to the firewall and in this instance it will be nyloc nuts that I will substitute for the standard items ( that I would have used thread lock on .... I have both ) I feel in this application the nylock nuts will serve better than using theeadlock due to the parts critical nature. I'll make sure that I illustrate this part of the assembly clearly to let you see what I am waffling about. I use threadlock on most of the smaller tasks such as grub screws and where the bolts are screwing into a machined part .... like the prop support ..... which I will also highlight when I come to do it. Sometimes however, I am maybe not too clear with my commentary and can see why I can easily confuse folks. Sometimes .... I am just wrong . I'm happy to have those moments pointed out. See you in the shed. Toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 Ah, okay. I tend to use captive nuts for mounting the radial motor mounts to the firewall, secured with epoxy when they are installed. When fitting to an existing model -as in a conversion from IC to electric- I have a captive nut helper, a length of threaded pushrod with a bend in it, that I can use to locate the captive nuts, then replace that with a bolt and large washer to draw the captive nut into the appropriate size of hole for the nut. The bolt gets a dab in Vaseline to prevent the threads being contaminated with epoxy. Threaded inserts can also be used, but demand a thick firewall and significantly larger hole to be drilled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted July 30, 2023 Share Posted July 30, 2023 3 hours ago, toto said: Hi Grumpy, I'll revisit this element based on the above. Just to clarify in my head, the disconnection of the control surfaces from the servos would he to allow the servos to " centralise " themselves when initially under control when connected through the TX and RX for the first time. Once the initial " fire up " has been done, re-centre the servo horns to suit ..... at 90 degree's to the servo. .... then re-attach the control surfaces suitably and trim out any final discrepancies in alignment. Does that make sense ? Many thanks Toto Yes, that's right - the servos will centre, and you can use one of the 'spare' servo arms pushed onto the servos to check for correct movement. When happy, connect it properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 30, 2023 Author Share Posted July 30, 2023 Hi leccyflyer, I thought I would post this image up to try and help my explanation. When I read your latest thread I realised that my terminology continued to be incorrect The fire wall to the rear is fitted with the captive nuts as supplied with the kit ( as you refer to ). The nyloc nuts that I refer to are fitted where illustrated above. two reasons for this 1. i don't want that element shaking loose under any conditions. the nylocs are more reliable than the thread lock I think. 2. I have no alternative than to subsitute the nuts and bolts that came with the kit as the nuts ...... are the wrong size for the bolts supplied. and yes I have ensured the correct items have been sought out. the black hex nuts are approximately 2.5mm or so ..... however, the nut which has a nylon insert requires a 4mm bolt .... as per the silver version I have added in. No big issue as I have a supply of different size nuts and bolts for when needed. I will progress this element since I have everything to hand and post up as I go. cheers toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 30, 2023 Author Share Posted July 30, 2023 Thanks Grumpy, apologies for always having to second c heck everything but I am still trying to get used to going with my thoughts. Sometimes .... that can prove fatal. 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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