Spektrum/JR user warning

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

59 minutes ago, GrumpyGnome said:

I'm not checking my retracts on the taxiway 😀

I have "twice", I did get some funny looks when my Wren powered Rafale hit the deck ( robart air up spring down) that's what happens when you don't do a proper check, and you think that that was the brake switch,,,🙃

[Futura57]

21 hours ago, Allan Bennett said:

I'm not a Spektrum user, but I did read elsewhere that settings could be altered if one switched off the power before the trannie had completed its boot-up.

If true this is scary and why I'm having a hard time with some of the humour in this tread. It's serious stuff.

[Peter Christy]

Hm! This sounds sort of familiar, but not quite!

 

I have a UMX Pitts Special - always had a soft spot for Pitts' since I had a Cox .020 c/l one as a kid! I fly it using a JR DSX-9 Tx - my only dedicated DSM-2 transmitter.

 

The first one flew beautifully for nearly a year. Then it suddenly started looping on take-off! A quick check revealed that not only had the elevator reversed itself, but so had the built in gyro stabiliser!

 

I could reverse the elevator, but not the stabiliser, which led me to conclude it was either the servo or the stabiliser at fault. I returned it to Horizon, who didn't even acknowledge receipt of it for months, and were totally uncommunicative, until a brand new one suddenly turned up at my front door! The new one performed flawlessly, but I haven't flown it in a while!

 

Must be very careful with the pre-flight checks next time I take it out....!

 

--

Pete

 

[GrumpyGnome]

52 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

I have "twice", I did get some funny looks when my Wren powered Rafale hit the deck ( robart air up spring down) that's what happens when you don't do a proper check, and you think that that was the brake switch,,,🙃

 

I shouldn't laugh. 

 

I check everything once I have assembled the plane, then everything in the pits before entering the taxiway/runway area...... then check the main controls again before take off.

 

All my planes have the same switch layout to help avoid 'gotchas' too.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Just now, GrumpyGnome said:

 

I shouldn't laugh. 

 

I check everything once I have assembled the plane, then everything in the pits before entering the taxiway/runway area...... then check the main controls again before take off.

 

All my planes have the same switch layout to help avoid 'gotchas' too.

I do have 40 + planes all the same layout, with 3 exceptions, the retracts on my Rafale and the retracts on my Bell 222 and Idle up 3 ( 3d flying ) on my helicopter, all three on the switch at the end of the right stick,

[Peter Jenkins]

On 09/10/2023 at 17:07, Martin McIntosh said:

Yesterday I went to the field with my 1:5 Chipmunk which has only had four flights over two years ago. The YS fired up and ran fine but the flaps and ailerons were all over the place; in fact the ailerons were reversed so no flying. This is the third time that this has happened with those brands but the first two models were not so lucky. I googled it and it turns out that it is not uncommon. One cure was to transfer the model to a spare memory then back to the original. This worked but don`t ask me how.

Just like to make the point Martin that the JR to which you referred will be the DSX9 and DSX12 versions that utilised the Spektrum radio system - DSM2.  I had a DSX9 and it was fine except for 2 occasions when the Spektrum Rx equipped aircraft suffered some sort of radio failure and I lost the aircraft.  The second loss was my 10 flight old Sebart Wind S 110. 

 

At that point I changed to the full JR system, that is the XG range of Txs, an XG11 to be precise, and have used this since 2011.  The radio link, JRs DMSS, has never given any concern during the 12 years that I have used it except for one occasion when during my pre-flight check the elevator stick spring retainer broke!  Thankfully, as I say, it was during the pre-flight check.  Apart from that, it's been exemplary.

 

So, when you see JR in this context it is the old JR with Spektrum radio in it not the proper JR DMSS radio designed by JR.  Sadly, JR went bust due to some illegal financial jiggery pokery.  I bought up some second hand XG11 Txs as a hedge against any Tx failure and picked up some Rxs to keep for new aircraft and spares.  Thankfully, the JR product, or at least some of it, been resurrected by Dee Force Aviation under the banner of JR/DFA and they have launched a new Tx although it now is over £2,000 in the UK so competes with the top line Futaba, Jeti and Powerbox ranges.

 

For those of us who had and still have the JR DMSS radios, I suspect that we will keep faith with JR but we are a pretty small group compared with the glory days of JR in the 35 Mhz era.  As far as I'm concerned, the ease of programming a JR Tx compared with Futaba was what sold me on the brand and led me to move from Futaba when they delayed launching their 2.4 offerings and the JR/Spektrum DSM2 DSX9 introduced me to JR's Tx.  When JR launched its own 2.4 offering, the JR DMSS system, I took that route and have never been short changed for performance or capability.  Just a great pity that they had a crook working in the old JR!

[jrman]

JR still produce TX's for less than £2,000 but the UK supplier doesn't seem to hold much of a stock, if any!  I've been using JR since before it was available in the UK (bought my first set in Singapore) and have had excellent service except for one instance using a JR DSM2  DSX9 Tx which although made by JR used a Spektrum manufactured RF board where the problem lay. I also then continued with the "real" JR  DMSS originally with an XG11 and later with a 28X.

Keep the faith Peter.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Lifelong (almost),trouble free JR user.

[Peter Jenkins]

1 hour ago, jrman said:

JR still produce TX's for less than £2,000 but the UK supplier doesn't seem to hold much of a stock, if any!  I've been using JR since before it was available in the UK (bought my first set in Singapore) and have had excellent service except for one instance using a JR DSM2  DSX9 Tx which although made by JR used a Spektrum manufactured RF board where the problem lay. I also then continued with the "real" JR  DMSS originally with an XG11 and later with a 28X.

Keep the faith Peter.

Yes, I'm well aware that the XG11 is still available as the T44 at under £1k but does not offer anything better than my current XG11.  As I said, for my purposes, F3A aerobatics, the XG11 has been able to meet every demand I have made of it.  

I currently own 2 x XG11 Txs and will shortly acquire a 3rd so I should be fine for the next 10 years.  OTOH I might be tempted by the new Elite Tx if I feel the need for extra functionality since I could continue using my existing JR DMSS Rxs.

[Futura57]

I must concur that as a 35Mhz JR user of 25 years (switched from Futaba) I have had faultless service. Only when I used a Spektrum DSM2 module I began to have issues. That's why I switched to Assan 2.4Ghz module. This also served me well with the Assan rxs. Now I'm down the road to a complete Spektrum migration I'm beginning to regret it.

[gangster]

On 10/10/2023 at 09:15, Cuban8 said:

Perhaps the tone of my comments did suggest that the problems some people have encountered with their gear never happened - that was not my intention.  However, posts seeming to  casually trash the reputation of a major manufacturer with millons of £s in sales and in one of the most litigious markets, i.e the US, where any sniff of an intrinsic issue with any manufacturers' gear would have the lawyers on the warpath, seems odd to me.

Rumour and folklore have been part of R/C equipment stories for decades..............from sunspots to high tension power lines, bluetooth signals from nearby houses, microwave towers and mobile phones, reports of widespread lockouts on the old 35 meg PCM gear (mainly Futaba BTW and as an ex-PCM Futaba flyer there was usually no supporting evidence of an equipment problem per se)......'haunted' parts of airspace at flying sites that attract models to their doom in some weird Bermuda Triangle style - happened  at my two clubs and there's not a shred of evidence to suggest any truth in it - oddly I haven't heard of any airborne 'possessions' for quite a few years.

The trouble is that genuine issues can be lost in the noise and smokescreen of guesswork and speculation.

Totally agree with all of that but the bit about the litigious manufacturers really got me thinking   This is not a cozy group of modellers sitting round the table in a pub. This is the World Wide Web, anybody can read it. Now Horizon or whoever owns them are unlikely to come after you and me but where do the publishers sit. We are making all these allegations, often uninformed and unjustified under the umbrella of the magazines publishers. 

[Martin McIntosh]

I fully appreciate the need to check controls on the runway but sometimes things can slip through when least expected, especially with a well flown and tested model. I have been flying r/c for some 63(!) years and rarely get any trouble, especially with the advent of glitch free 2.4.

When I said that I may not have power cycled the LD it could have been after I transferred the model to another TX.

Amongst others which I no longer have a need for I have two DSX9 Txs and a modular PCM9Xii in which I can use a FrSky module. I have a very large number of JR 921 Rxs plus some Spektrum 7 and 9 ch ones, so a long time ago the cost had built up to a point where I would need to remortgage to change systems.

The forum I got the memory change trick from invariably referred to Spektrum DX6 and DX9 sets. I believe that at least the DX9 uses a different protocol so I cannot blame DSM2. On the subject of DSM2, it certainly does not like the Tx to be too close to the model when powering up or binding. A delay can be expected while the Tx grabs and hogs two frequencies from the band.

[leccyflyer]

6 minutes ago, gangster said:

Totally agree with all of that but the bit about the litigious manufacturers really got me thinking   This is not a cozy group of modellers sitting round the table in a pub. This is the World Wide Web, anybody can read it. Now Horizon or whoever owns them are unlikely to come after you and me but where do the publishers sit. We are making all these allegations, often uninformed and unjustified under the umbrella of the magazines publishers. 

I believe you misread the intent of Cuban8's post - he was postularing on the lack of cases against the manufacturers being evidence of there not being a problem with the radio systems, not of the manufacturers seeking to sue individuals or publishers for comments made about their systems.

[leccyflyer]

3 minutes ago, Martin McIntosh said:

I fully appreciate the need to check controls on the runway but sometimes things can slip through when least expected, especially with a well flown and tested model. I have been flying r/c for some 63(!) years and rarely get any trouble, especially with the advent of glitch free 2.4.

When I said that I may not have power cycled the LD it could have been after I transferred the model to another TX.

Amongst others which I no longer have a need for I have two DSX9 Txs and a modular PCM9Xii in which I can use a FrSky module. I have a very large number of JR 921 Rxs plus some Spektrum 7 and 9 ch ones, so a long time ago the cost had built up to a point where I would need to remortgage to change systems.

The forum I got the memory change trick from invariably referred to Spektrum DX6 and DX9 sets. I believe that at least the DX9 uses a different protocol so I cannot blame DSM2. On the subject of DSM2, it certainly does not like the Tx to be too close to the model when powering up or binding. A delay can be expected while the Tx grabs and hogs two frequencies from the band.

Fair point - whilst we all strive for perfection in pre-flight checks a moment's inattentiveness can come up to bite you. The most common that I have seen, as described earlier, is where the preflight involves a wuick waggle of the sticks before take off, but without spending the 2-3 seconds to methodically work each control and observe exactly what is occurring.

 

However, when push comes to shove we are all human and mistakes can happen - I rolled my Magnatilla into a ball last year on the second flight of the day because I had unknowingly disconnected the ailerons whilst swapping out the flight pack. I thought that I'd done my preflights for the second flight, but clearly I hadn't and having nursed the poorly responding model round a circuit to come back and land, I got the landing wrong, ran out of control authority to lift the wing and had a very heavy arrival. I was quite cross when I discovered the non-functioning ailerons, due to the disconnected extension lead.

[gangster]

4 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

I believe you misread the intent of Cuban8's post - he was postularing on the lack of cases against the manufacturers being evidence of there not being a problem with the radio systems, not of the manufacturers seeking to sue individuals or publishers for comments made about their systems.

Er no.. it was not a case of misunderstanding Cuban 8s post, with which I agree with every word.I was adding my own thoughts, inspired by his comments. This led me to concerns about publicly criticising a multi million dollar American company

[leccyflyer]

I think Horizon Hobby have had to develop quite a thick skin, given the very widespread criticism of their radio systems and their wider hobby products. They have also had no small number of issues where they have clearly had problems with the radio systems in the past and the number of folks who have received the "no faults found, equipment replaced for customer's peace of mind" is probably fairly large. In order for an individual or corporation to be considered liable they would have to be able to demonstrate that the opinion expressed was untrue in terms of being factually incorrect and that they have suffered a consequent loss. That's not too easy in this game, where opinions are widely expressed and not always that well founded.

[Cuban8]

1 hour ago, gangster said:

Er no.. it was not a case of misunderstanding Cuban 8s post, with which I agree with every word.I was adding my own thoughts, inspired by his comments. This led me to concerns about publicly criticising a multi million dollar American company

I was thinking about flyers bringing a legal claim against a manufacturer for the loss of a model , allegedly because of a manufacturing fault or bug in the product- AFAIA this has never happened. Would any action of this type ever be successful, unless it could be proven that the manufacturer knowingly realeased a faulty and potentially dangerous product onto consumers? A complex area of law, I suspect.

Equally, the opposite action where there is a concerted  'hate campaign' against a manufacturer that could be considered detrimental to their business......this has happened in some industries, but as far as I know, manufacturers of RC gear have always ignored the jibes.

As a motorcyclist of many years, bikers can be just as paranoid.............brand X oil causes all manner of problems........brand Y tyres are deadly...........brand Z's gearboxes fail after 5000 miles........all can be found on biker forums and without any fact checking.

 

Just an afterthought, but I wonder if retailers get worried over any of this? After all, it's the retailer (in the UK certanly) that a buyer has his contract with.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Cuban8

[Futura57]

A fair few years ago I bought a new-fangled Pure DAB clock radio for the bedroom. It cost over £100. It was great (at first). At first power up it spoke to me while it scanned the airwaves and registered the dozens of radio stations, DAB and non-DAB . A few were beginning to transmit DAB at the time as I recall. It would talk to me as I navigated the menu system. Very useful when you are dozing and fumbling around in the morning. It had a good bass sound. All was good in our household. After owning said clock radio for around 18 months (now outside guarantee/warranty) it sometimes would not 'go off' at the programmed time in the morning, or it would snooze indefinitely, resulting in over-sleeps. I did a factory reset and set everything up gain and all was well for a while. Next to glitch was the display brightness, which kept dropping to its lowest setting. This made it awkward to navigate the menu system, but I was saved by its helpful speaking trick. After getting fed up with this I did another factory reset and all was well again for a few weeks. The display fault recurred several times over the coming weeks. The final straw came when changing radio stations one day it segued into its initial power-up sequence, scanning the airwaves again, registering the stations and wiping my station pre-sets, wake-up times, etc. After consulting my Google friend I discovered many other people were experiencing similar problems with the same model. Not surprisingly, 'download and install the latest firmware' was the mantra from the disgruntled customers, because the manufacturer is as helpful as the proverbial chocolate teapot. This solved the problem for some but not for others, including yours truly. My final solution - chuck it in the rubbish bin!

 

The point of my ramble is that manufacturers of devices with embedded software have conditioned us over the years to 'install the latest software/firmware' as the first step in trying to diagnosing a problem. Though, to be fair, this probably comes second after 'try turning it off then back on again'. We've all heard of built-in-obsolescence, and many of us have probably experienced it. Why do you think manufacturers provide a means to update the embedded software? To get the latest features of course - NO to fix defects. They push products out of the door early in a bid to beat their rivals and get market share. It's not always tested properly so they let us paying customers be their testers. I've worked in the software industry, I know this happens all the time. Management want the product out the door, but the developers know it isn't ready. No problem, we can push out bug fixes through software updates. This practise has become normalised.

 

A couple of months back the automated Windows 10 update on my home PC stopped the Windows menu button and icon bar from appearing. Mr Google suggested I restore to my previous OS build (save point) and wait for ANOTHER update to fix the problem. This I duly did for my sanity. I waited a week or so.

 

In the last couple of weeks my Google home setup has decided to start randomly turning off lights a millisecond after I command it to turn them on. I despair, I really do. I must now waste more of my precious hobby time phaffing about with smart device setups to find out what is going on. And yes, Mr Google knows all about this fault.

 

So I'm not Spektrum bashing when I say my model settings were not saved. They were not saved. It's the world we live in now. But I will never ever buy a smart washing machine, cooker or other such kitchen appliance. And don't get me started on smart dumb TVs.

 

End of rant. That feels better.

 

 

 

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

There’s a world of difference between reporting the circumstances of an event - particularly where there is a demonstrable sequence of events that can replicate it - and making unsubstantiated claims such as “Hokey-Cokey 2000 radios are rubbish”.

 

I’ve had a quick flick through the thread and I don’t think any comments are of the latter type but if anyone sees something of concern here or in any thread, please raise a report to the moderators (click on the … symbol at the top of the offending post).

[Cuban8]

I guess the big difference is in safety critical areas where a bug could result in injury or worse. Missing an alarm or having the lights run amok is annoying but not usually the end of the world.

I used to work back in the 80s in the newly rebuilt London Docklands as an engineer for a telecoms company...............I took a ride one lunchtime on the very new and futuristic driverless DLR...............the train began negotiating an incline and halfway up began to slow down to a halt...............an alarm sounded and the train proceeded to run away back down the slope!  Luckily, they used Train Captains (guards) at that time and the guy ran from one end of the twin carriage train to the other to unlock a console and apply the brakes. A bit of extra work and testing of their sytem was clearly needed.

[Nigel R]

29 minutes ago, Cuban8 said:

I guess the big difference is in safety critical areas where a bug could result in injury or worse.

 

Which is precisely why you can actually buy a tx with all the features it has, for the price you can - nobody in this hobby would ever buy a tx with software built to safety crit standards, it would make a 2 grand Jeti look like a complete bargain.

 

[Zflyer]

Recognisable and repeatable fault which resulted in 3rd party damage I think would certainly give companies cause for concern as legal remedies I'm sure would be pursued.

I am not aware of any manufacturer being subjected to such, unless of course someone knows different.

I am not a fan of 'smart everything connected to everything' . Its to easy for these things to be manipulated.

As regards software, when memory was cheap software had to be compact and precise, certainly it wasn't always error free, now with memory being cheap and pretty much unlimited, in my view, software seems more error prone. That quite naturally being human error which in a lot of cases results in 'dented' models. I have certainly been a victim of my own dumb thumbs.

[Futura57]

54 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

 

Which is precisely why you can actually buy a tx with all the features it has, for the price you can - nobody in this hobby would ever buy a tx with software built to safety crit standards, it would make a 2 grand Jeti look like a complete bargain.

 

So we have to accept a certain level of built-in defects? And what if I use a smart switch to turn a heater or kettle on and off, or some other non-trivial device. Or for that matter turning on a washing  machine in the basement in the early hours. Safety critical? If my accounting software goes AWOL and I post my accounts wrong/late, will the tax man be lenient? It's all matter of perspective.

 

Anyway, I'm guessing my earlier posts have been reported and I am sailing close to the wind. I will bid you adieu.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

11 minutes ago, Futura57 said:

So we have to accept a certain level of built-in defects? And what if I use a smart switch to turn a heater or kettle on and off, or some other non-trivial device. Or for that matter turning on a washing  machine in the basement in the early hours. Safety critical? If my accounting software goes AWOL and I post my accounts wrong/late, will the tax man be lenient? It's all matter of perspective.

 

Anyway, I'm guessing my earlier posts have been reported and I am sailing close to the wind. I will bid you adieu.

 

No, no reports in, just an run of the mill Specky thread.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

55 minutes ago, Futura57 said:

Anyway, I'm guessing my earlier posts have been reported and I am sailing close to the wind. I will bid you adieu.

I have no claim to legal expertise but I don’t see anything wrong in your posts. You’ve told us what happened and discussed software controlled equipment in general.  These software bugs often take real world users to find an unusual combination of circumstances that extensive testing has failed to find.