WOT4e flying v Junior 60 (with elec conversion)?

[911hillclimber]

Being the very slowest learner in the UK and after 4 years of infrequent flying with an excellent 'buddy' I just might be ready to try a vintage plane over the WOT4 for 2025.

 

The (Flair) Junior 60 is a £20 purchase from a few years ago at Weston Park and is very nice; it has the large rudder and good size elevator and will have ESC as the 3rd channel.

 

The WOT 4e has it all so I'm used to ailerons to change direction etc.

 

I fly mode 1 ( throttle/rudder on left stick, alieron/ elevator on right stick).

 

What will the difference feel like for a barely just solo pilot between the 2 planes?

 

I presume I set my DX6 with rudder/elevator on the right stick, throttle on the left?

 

I came back to this hobby to fly vintage, so keen to get there next year!

Thanks in advance.

Graham.

[kc]

Surely what you describe is Mode 2  (not Mode 1 ) or did you write it incorrectly?

 

Anyway for 3 channel just use rudder where the ailerons would be.  Actually thats the righthand stick in both Mode 1 and 2.   It's the throttle which swops over with elevator in different Modes.

Edited December 8, 2024 by kc

[Zflyer]

Leave the stick commands as the one's you are used too.

[kc]

The difference in planes Wot4e to Junior 60 will be noticeable as a slower response to control.   You may well find the Junior 60 or similar vintage model much easier to fly but less easy to get it to go exactly where you want. 

 

Z flyer's comment should ( in my opinion ) be read as keep to your normal Mode but have the primary steering ( ailerons or rudder ) on the righthand stick as usual.

[David Davis]

911, throttle/rudder on the left stick is Mode 2 not Mode 1.

 

Put the rudder servo on the aileron channel and you'll be alright. Just remember to use your right thumb on take off.

 

I learned to fly on a Flair Junior 60 powered by an Irvine 20. I converted it to electric power later on and on the day that I sold it to my trainee pilot something went wrong and we had no control. Betraying its free flight heritage, it glided magnificently into a wheat field where, despite several searches we we unable to find it. The combine harvester did!  I gave the lad his money back!

 

In my opinion they are excellent models for elderly beginners, as kc says, they will not go exactly where you want them to go but they will give you lots of stress-free time in the air which will build up your self confidence until you are ready to go onto something just a little more demanding. Don't try to fly them in a wind, that's all!

 

I intend to build another Junior 60 over the winter, cover it in doculam and tissue and power it with an OS 15 two-stroke.

 

 

 

 

[911hillclimber]

Thank you all, yes, Mode 2, my mistake. I find this layout good (I'm left handed)

 

The model is in great solid condition, not even sure it was ever flown, but was built as a glow engine I think, no fuel creep in the nose anywhere.

 

Is there any advantage to converting the wing to ailerons using a servo directly to each aileron like the construction of the WOT 4e?

Graham.

[kc]

If the wing is built for 3 function then it will have lots of dihedral which won't work well with ailerons.

But you could have rudder on whichever stick is convenient for you or couple rudder to both sticks in the Tx memory if it suits you better.   Try it with the assistance of your instructor to find what works for you.   Obviously tell your instructor if you change the sticks around or couple anything.

[Geoff S]

If you mix aileron and rudder 100% (if your transmitter allows) then you can use either 'rudder' or 'aileron' to steer. I always do that on the few rudder/elevator model I have because I tend to steer with my left hand on the ground even when its not connected - with that mix, it still works.

[Frank Skilbeck]

7 hours ago, Geoff S said:

If you mix aileron and rudder 100% (if your transmitter allows) then you can use either 'rudder' or 'aileron' to steer. I always do that on the few rudder/elevator model I have because I tend to steer with my left hand on the ground even when its not connected - with that mix, it still works.

Me too, and I find myself moving the rudder stick in the air to help in the turns 🤪

[911hillclimber]

Great advice.

The wing is all covered beautifully so would be a shame to cut-n-shut to build in ailerons.

Thank you all.

Graham.

[Engine Doctor]

Hi 911  just my opinion  but Use J60 as intended ie, rudder elevator. They are nice flying models and ideal for anyone to get stick time who is having trouble advancing their early flying.

If you really wanted to try ailerons on a J60 just make a new wing with flat bottom instead of under cambered ,greatly reduced dihedral and strip ailerons , not inset type ; but yhen you might as well stick with the Wot 4.

Very importantly , Keep your original wing for when you get fed up with all the alterations etc.

[Nigel R]

2 hours ago, Engine Doctor said:

If you really wanted to try ailerons on a J60 just make a new wing with flat bottom instead of under cambered ,greatly reduced dihedral and strip ailerons , not inset type

 

I feel duty bound to mention the Super 60 at this point - effectively a 4 channel Junior with all the necessary mods to suit the change/update.

 

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=552

Edited December 9, 2024 by Nigel R

[gangster]

Well this is all very confusing. So to add my two Penneth 

You will find it a totally different animal to the wot 4. Don’t expect to fly it like you do a wot4.  It’s a vintage model probably designed for free flight As such you don’t fly it as such and just interfere with what it wants to do. Great fun and a very relaxing model to fly,especially on a summers evening.

So what stick does what? Well you are on mode 1 so on your wot 4 you will use the left stick to make it go up and down and your right stick to go left and right. Don’t over power it and keep control movements gentle. Forget aelerons, it’s not that sort of model.  If however you want a great flying 4 function build yourself a 4 function super 60. Lovely smooth model to fly. It will do your confidence no end of good. Enjoy

[kc]

Of course Graham has already said he is on Mode 2.

 

 Flying a rudder /elevator model in Mode2 and keeping the rudder on left stick gives the pilot a chance to have elevator on a different  stick to the 'steering' control ( if he wants )  which may prove easier.   It means one can use both hands and therefore both sides of the brain.   Just as in Mode 1 where the main functions ( steering & elevator ) are separate and little chance of giving an inadvertant  mixed signal.  ( moving the throttle a little has no real effect, whereas moving the elavator accidenlally can be huge )

Graham, I suggest you try rudder on left stick and elevator as normal Mode 2 on right.   You may find it works for you at least on a rudder/elevator/ throttle model.  It may help your flying a lot ( or may not! ) but the relaxed style of flying a vintage model will.

 

( note.  I am not suggesting changing to Mode 1 - that's too big a change for someone already learning on Mode 2  )

[911hillclimber]

Afraid I'm back with 3 questions please:

1

C of G on this model? Where about is it?

If I band the wing to the plane and balance the plane so the CofG is on the wing spar is that about right?

On this plane I have (possibly a Belair kit) this co-insides with the position of the cabin center upright.

 

The plane is very tail heavy despite the weighty motor and the battery (3S) I have installed. I will have to add a lot of nose ballast maybe...

2

The travel of the elevator?

I have a max throw Up of about 10 mm (maybe 10 deg) and a little less Down. The elevator is quite skinny, 35mm x 380 wide.

Is this about right?

3

Back to the set-up of the joy sticks, I have throttle on the left stick and left stick side-to-side does nothing.

The right stick has elevator top to bottom throw, and rudder left/right, obviously no ailerons.

 

Sounds right?

Thanks in advance for the advice,

Graham.

[Phil Green]

My current J60 balances just behind the spar, on the spar will be ok. They all need significant noseweight 😀

My first one had three A123 M1 cells bundled under the bearers.

10 degrees of elevator is very little. I'd suggest 30 degrees  

Your stick configuration is conventional for a mode-2 flyer (like me & Shaun) but you did say you were left handed - are you comfortable with your main controls on the right stick? If so sounds like you're good to go! 🙃

 

Edited January 2 by Phil Green

[payneib]

1 hour ago, 911hillclimber said:

 

If I band the wing to the plane and balance the plane so the CofG is on the wing spar is that about right?

 

 

 

Yeah that's about right. I had to add 125g of weight to the nose to make it happen. 

1 hour ago, 911hillclimber said:

 

2

The travel of the elevator?

I have a max throw Up of about 10 mm (maybe 10 deg) and a little less Down. The elevator is quite skinny, 35mm x 380 wide.

Is this about right?

 

 

Sounds about right. What does the plan say?

 

1 hour ago, 911hillclimber said:

 

3

Back to the set-up of the joy sticks, I have throttle on the left stick and left stick side-to-side does nothing.

The right stick has elevator top to bottom throw, and rudder left/right, obviously no ailerons.

 

 

The only time that might be a problem is once you're used to flying 4ch and using the rudder on the ground, but it works fine. I will eventually get round to putting a mix on the left stick rudder control so it doesn't catch me out, but these things are so slow it's not much to realise what you're doing and correct it. 

[911hillclimber]

Thank you both, good thoughts.

 

I found a Belair plan on google images that shows the CofG about 5mm ahead of the spar so i have some way to go.

 

I think/estimate the additional weight to be about 200+ grm! I can at least get that mass down deep in the engine cavity right at the front.

I'm waiting for my new electric prop to arrive (11 x 7) and will make the prop nut in brass or steel to add weight too.

 

I can fly (just) on 4 channel as a left hander with throttle/rudder on the left and the ele/ailerons on the right stick which i think is Mode 2.

Is there an advantage in mixing the ele/alierons together, or is that asking for trouble?

 

This feel good to me.

I have found through my considerable years I find some things natural as a right hander (playing guitar for example), but write left handed.

 

Had a bit of a battle getting the new motor/ESC/Rx/Tx all to chime in together this morning, but got there in the end.

 

The Junior 60 design is such a good looking classic!

[Don Fry]

I’m mode 2. I’d personally would mix the rudder/aileron. Reason, when you get exited, ie it is not obeying you, you need a turning control on whatever turning stick you slide.

Imagine, you slide the wrong stick to turn, nothing happens, panic. Turn is programmed on both sticks, it turns.

Delightful aircraft. Easy to fly, perhaps. Someone above is flying a Depron airliner indoors, very low, very slow. Good flier. A J60 can do that, a challenge for those who dismiss them. A circuit of the field, at a meter altitude, touch, run on the ground for 10 meters, ease of and repeat (note, calm day) will cause fatigue and brain ache. 

BTW, I think it was originally a rudder only design. The Super 60 was an elevator/rudder job. I also think, back in 1946, the power pack was a lead acid battery. I used to strap a pair of pliers on the CG to weight it in blustery conditions. 

Edited January 2 by Don Fry
Changing idiot text.

[Nigel Grant 1]

I agree with Don that you should mix elevator and aileron functions so that your rudder will work equally off the left rudder stick or the right stick. I regularly fly a 3 channel model on mode 2, as well 4 channel aileron models on the same day. When taxiing/taking off or landing I use the left hand rudder stick and when in the air the right hand stick as if you are guiding it with ailerons. 

This way you are using the controls in the same way whether you fly 3 or 4 channel models.

 

 

[911hillclimber]

Thanks for this; I'll give it a go tomorrow or the weekend along with getting a heap more weights for the nose....

I have the Spektrum DX6 Tx which has a facility I think to mix the surfaces.

I did not know you could assign one surface to both sticks.

 

 

[Phil Green]

5 hours ago, Nigel Grant 1 said:

I agree with Don that you should mix elevator and aileron functions so that your rudder will work equally off the left rudder stick or the right stick.

911, I'm assuming you spotted Nigel's typo.... he meant rudder and aileron sticks.

Myself, I wouldnt bother, though its easy enough to add, its just personal preference.

I wouldnt worry about the cg being +/- 10mm or so, its very forgiving.

 

5 hours ago, Don Fry said:

BTW, I think it was originally a rudder only design. The Super 60 was an elevator/rudder job

 

Sorry no on both counts Don :)

The original 1946 Junior 60 was free-flight, and the original Super 60 rudder-only via a REPtone (a rx and single servo brick), though the 1961 plan shows a rubber-escapement 😉
See page 38:  The Big Four

Edited January 3 by Phil Green

[David Davis 2]

I agree with everything Phil has said.

 

Whether you mix the rudder and aileron control so that the rudder is operated by either the left hand or right hand stick is up to you. If you feel more comfortable with this set up go for it. I learned to fly on a Junior 60 with the rudder on the right stick. I had to adjust my take off techniques for my first four-channel model, a Chris Foss Unowot, but I didn't find the transition difficult. Mind you that was thirty-seven years ago!

 

The Junior 60 is not sensitive to c of g position provided it is somewhere near the main spar. I had to add 1.5 lbs (680 grammes!) of lead underneath the engine on my first Junior 60  to get the cof g right; it was powered by an Irvine 20 two stroke glow. I had inadvertently made the tailplane out of heavy balsa. I made another out of lighter balsa and I was able to remove all of the lead but it still flew well even carrying all of that weight.  

 

[911hillclimber]

All good stuff, keeping it simple is the very best!

 

As to nose weight...

I am amazed how much will be needed to get the CofG under the wing spar, , 16 Oz seems about right, a huge weight but I'm comparing it all with my WOT4e that floats in the air.

 

Not sure where to find such a load of weights other than a pile of the stick-on strips.

I need to get this sorted before anything else.

 

I very much appreciate this advice from you all, thank you.

[Phil Green]

Mine has 9gm servos in the tail, I thought this would be lighter than pushrods, I dunno if it is,

I dont know how much weight I have up front but I'm sure its not as bad as 16oz! 🙂

There has been a lot of J60 CoG discussion. Patmac has his at 40%, 35% is common (90mm from Leading Edge).

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/Junior-60

 

 

Edited January 3 by Phil Green