Flair Legionaire

[Engine Doctor]

I had one years ago with an Enya 61 FS fitted. Ground looping was a nightmare ! I never did sort it and sold it on . Once in the air it was great looking model I remember that one of our club members at the time had similar issues with his . He cured it or made it manageable by locking the wheels to the axle so both wheels turned together the UC had bushes fitted allowing the axle to turn.

Might be worth a go and not too difficult.

My other criticism of the model was the lower wing or sesquiplane was very flimsy so had a friend make some foam veneer replacements 

[Jon H]

One thing that comes to my mind is that in some respects we are criticizing a scale model for behaving in a scale way. The originals were little beasts to fly and when the se5a came along it was much easier due to its overall design. The full size nieuport also had issues with the lower wing being too weak so its hardly a surprise that we encounter the same issues.

My model requires firm handling and takes few prisoners but I would never fit a gyro as for me this slight difficulty is part of its appeal. If it was easy all the time why bother? It would so boring if all models flew perfectly and exactly the same as eachother. the satisfaction I get from mastering the beast far outweighs the odd wayward takeoff or wingtip assisted landing.

With this in mind, is it not the model that is wrong but only our expectations? And by fitting the bandage of a gyro are we not missing an opportunity to learn something new and improve our flying overall? I'm not criticizing those who have fitted a gyro, I am just curious about the rationale for doing so as my model is not unmanageable without it even if I am caught out on occasion.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 30/09/2017 11:32:22:

One thing that comes to my mind is that in some respects we are criticizing a scale model for behaving in a scale way. The originals were little beasts to fly and when the se5a came along it was much easier due to its overall design. The full size nieuport also had issues with the lower wing being too weak so its hardly a surprise that we encounter the same issues.

My model requires firm handling and takes few prisoners but I would never fit a gyro as for me this slight difficulty is part of its appeal. If it was easy all the time why bother? It would so boring if all models flew perfectly and exactly the same as eachother. the satisfaction I get from mastering the beast far outweighs the odd wayward takeoff or wingtip assisted landing.

With this in mind, is it not the model that is wrong but only our expectations? And by fitting the bandage of a gyro are we not missing an opportunity to learn something new and improve our flying overall? I'm not criticizing those who have fitted a gyro, I am just curious about the rationale for doing so as my model is not unmanageable without it even if I am caught out on occasion.

Well there we agree it's part of it's nature learn to deal with it, smallish Decathlon i had did the same thing, why deprive your club mates of a chuckle when you get it wrong.

[Bob Cotsford]

I fitted a gyro to mine as I wanted a model that looked the part in the air and was relaxing to fly, I have plenty of challenges elsewhere without looking for ways to make flying harder too.

I also have an old Veron Sopwith Strutter, that too likes the odd ground loop but nowhere near as much as the Baronette. If I want to amuse the other club members (more than my flying usually does) I take the Strutter out. Or the vintage Eros - that's another one that likes a tour of the field before taking off.

edit: the Baronette is easy to fly, but benefits from a bit of concentration to make it really look the part, the best of both worlds?  With the gyro it's easier to get it in the air, then it can either be flown scale or thrown around for a bit of fun.

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 30/09/2017 12:10:35

[Jon H]

That's fair Bob

I always look for ways I can improve my flying. I work on the basis that the better I fly the less likely I am to break something in the long term. I don't like to rely on equipment to look after me but I can see the 'I just want to fly the flippin thing' side of the argument.

John, I am beside myself with shock

[edgar]

I'm building one of these at the moment (one and a half wings finished so far) so this is of great interest. I can understand the point made by Jon but after careful consideration I think I'm in agreement with Bob and I am going to fit some kind of stabilisation on rudder, but I need some help please?

After reviewing various threads I can see that the Orange RX3x has been used successfully, but I can also see that these units can be difficult to set up. Denis suggests a three wire head lock gyro, I have no experience of helicopters or gyros and I can see like everything else in life, prices range from inexpensive to expensive.

Can anyone suggest a good (and inexpensive) one of these? are there any tips for successful use in fixed wing? can they be used with standard servos or do I need digitals? can they be used with ic or will the vibration interfere with their operation?

Thanks

[Trevor Crook]

The Orange RX3S shouldn't be too hard to set up. Just put it in line between the rudder output on the Rx and the servo, and tweak the pot for desired sensitivity. Best to start with minimal stabilisation. Oh, and of course be careful to ensure it works in the right direction!

[Jon H]

Edgar I would give it a go as standard before going too far down the stabiliser route. The model is hardly uncontrollable and in around 300 flights only 3 have left mine upside down, with 2 of those needing an inspection and no significant damage caused on any of the incidents.

If you make a sprung u/c, don't even dream of trying to takoff/land in any sort of cross wind, and are careful on takeoffs its not that bad.

Edited By Jon Harper - Laser Engines on 30/09/2017 18:05:45

[Cuban8]

Years ago a friend bought a Legionaire as an 'auction special' and found it impossible to fly. He kindly loaned me the model to try and sort it and I have to say that on inspection, it was the worst model in terms of how it had been constructed that I'd ever seen. From a distance, it looked OK though.

From memory, a three quarter inch banana bend in the fuselage, warps in both wings and the fin with a bootfull of rudder built-in. We did get it to fly (not very well, it's true) after much hacking around and messing about, but what's odd is that its ground handling even with the all the building faults was not too bad.

The model was eventually sold on for an extra few quid at auction and did reappear from time to time, to be sold to another unsuspecting punter.

[Don Fry]

I have the D VII. Take off is OK, crosswind or not, an early preventative feed of rudder is good. And get the tail up. Once it starts to swing you are too late especially if you did not get the tail up. Failure will result in the thing falling over.

Landing crosswind is an art. You have to get the wheels on the ground, while they are tracking staight ahead. Otherwise you are waggling the aileron and rudder sticks to keep the wheels tracking, and the wings level, while the aileron authority decays. Best land into wind.

[Bob Cotsford]

I used a cheap and cheerful gyro from Giant Cod (remember them?). It uses a second channel to switch it on and off by varying the gyro 'rate'. eg iirc -100% gives max stability, zero gives off and + 100% gives heading hold - you do not want this last option!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I maidened a Durafly Me163 for a clubmate and found it nicely mannered and a good performer. When HK had another sale, I bought one at a decent price (not as decent as my friend got his at - £29.99 would you believe!!!) and found it equally rewarding. After a few weeks of regular use I didn't fly it for a while and when a decent day came along, popped it in the car for an outing.

Once in position, I opened the throttle and all hell broke loose...my left thumb working like crazy with the model squirreling along the runway like Tufty with St. Vitus' Dance on mind altering drugs..."what's wrong with me today?"

Eventually after a couple more attempts and some minor wingtip repairs, I got it airborne and off it sailed, powering skywards as usual, handling like a pussycat and looking as smooth and impressive as usual. Putting the experience behind me and the model in the car, I thought all was well with the world and retired to the pub for our regular Thursday meal.

Next time out, I placed the model on the ground with only slight concerns from the memories of the previous occasion and committed thumb to throttle. Instant mayhem. More UHU POR. And repeat. Again, once finally in the air order was restored and the model returned home for tidying up.

And next time, repeat.

And repeat - until finally, I happened to be chatting to the owner of the £29.99 example as he put his battery in his model. "That's a lot further forward than I have mine", I observed - and one or two distant memory cells finally sparked into life...was that around where I'd been putting mine before the break and had I remembered it incorrectly?

So I put my battery in a similar position - placed the model on the runway, opened the throttle with due care and some trepidation, slight swing corrected by rudder, no dramatic oversteer, lift off, drop wheels, climb away...bingo!

Next flight - repeat of same so I invested in a pair of new wings as the old ones were battered remnants of the originals after numerous cartwheels and we've lived happily ever after through numerous outings (well, trying not to tempt fate, at least until the next time I fly her).

The moral of the story? Maybe there's a C of G sweet spot for the Legionnaire which tames the ground behaviour in a similar way, while a more rearward one which is still well within stability limits in the air makes any swing on the ground significantly more divergent? Perhaps Jon, you could measure your C of G position next time it's assembled? I have to say that my Legionnaire was horrible to deal with on the ground before fitting the gyro and it's not an area I normally have any difficulty with even on models with a reputation for being somewhat of a handful.

Edited By Martin Harris on 30/09/2017 20:54:59

[edgar]

Thanks for all your advice. I think what I plan to do now, when I eventually finish it (I'm a slow builder) is to try it as standard, then try some stabilisation if/when its unmanagable. Given the speed of my building I have several months in which to decide.

The other challenge will be to make sure I'm at the field on the two days a year we have without cross winds!

Yes I remember Giant Cod cod, I have one of their outrunners doing sterling service in my tiger moth.

[Jon H]

My model spends its entire time assembled as it fits in the car whole. I balanced it as per the instructions but will double check it tomorrow

[edgar]

I've been thinking about Martin's cg suggestion and realised that the cg on this model must be relatively high in the airframe, it has a main wing a couple of inches above the fuselage and only a puny little wing at the bottom. I think that this is unlike the SE5A or Puppeteer which have lower wings of comparable size to the upper, so i would expect the cg to be a little lower down for these two. A high cg is never good for the handling of a car or bike, so I expect this situation will have a similar effect to the ground handling of an aircraft, and might explain why the ground handling of this model seems to be so much worse than biplane with similar undercarriage arrangements.

[trebor]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, a bit of "tow in" on the wheels might help. Setting up motorcycle sidecars was an eye opener get it wrong and it's tank slapping time

[Don Fry]

And another point is, I find Flair aircraft have forward, safe, centres of gravity, balanced as plan. They fly much better, and handle better on the ground when it is adjusted. Not sure toe in is an option, they are built with a slid straight through axle. A live axle might help.

But I will say again, get the tail up on the take off run. The high nose up attitude produces a strong gyroscopic processional turn to the right, and trying to balance it with the rudder is always uncertain. K

[Don Fry]

I must read posts before I put them online. Re the above the processional turn is to the left with a anti-clockwise turning prop. And for slid read solid. Sorry.

[Derek Stevenson]

Well after all I've read about the Flair Legionnaire's problems especially on take off, I took it for it's maiden today. As I had no gyro and the wheels running free both ends of axel, I was feeling quite nervous. I opened up the 52 four stroke, it move off slowly tracked dead into wind lifted her tail and up she went! No fuss, no ground looping, no problem, just climbed away sweetly. I did need to add a bit of down to stop her climbing. Then came the landing, sweetly back onto the tarmac to the cheers of the watching crowd! I wondered if I should put it back into the car and write this report just in case it was a fluke.

No went again, take off 2 and 3 were exactly the same got a dead stick on final flight and landed on the grass about 6ft short of the tarmac. A lovely day and all that worrying wasn't needed. I would love to say I'm just a brilliant flier but the lads at the club would never agree to that!!! Happy days have come again.

[edgar]

Well that's good to hear and very encouraging for me. Did you add any down or right thrust?

[Derek Stevenson]

Engine set at zero

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Test flew a 3 channel Popsie today, had a castoring t/wheel as well, first attempt at taking of was fun. 2nd attempt was much better when i remembered to steer with aileron thumb. much bigger one than in the pic.

[PatMc]

For good ground steering it's best to mix the redundant rudder stick 50% with the active "aileron" stick when flying REM.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by PatMc on 06/10/2017 20:22:20:

For good ground steering it's best to mix the redundant rudder stick 50% with the active "aileron" stick when flying REM.

Not on a Futaba Challenger box it ain't, not seen one of those in a long time.

[Jon H]

I wouldn't recommend mixing rudder at all. normally my ailerons and rudder are in opposite directions so it would not e very helpful at all!