BMFA National Flying Centre

[Dickw]

Posted by Erfolg on 14/05/2015 13:56:16:

......... BEB has pointed out that the BMFA is a company, where it appears that whoever are the shareholders are, are not apparently us, the members. ...............

Anyway Saturday is almost here, and no doubt we will eventually come to learn something.

I don't believe ther are any "shareholders". The front page of the "Articles of Association" state:-

"Private company limited by guarantee and not having a share capital"

If there is no share capital why would you (how can you) have share holders?

Dick

[John F]

Posted by Erfolg on 14/05/2015 13:56:16:

Colin

Right from the beginning a major issue for me has been a lack of clarity and any consultation with the broad membership. . . .

How could there possibly be a lack of consultation with the broad membership when every member was told about this?

This has been ongoing for almost exactly a year.

I am sorry but the repetitive issue of not being informed, or consulted, is completely untrue.

Club Bulletins had news of the NFC and if your club did not know about it then maybe your club needs a rattle to keep itself up to date with what is going on. That is the role of the club; to inform members, and if the club is unable to do so then maybe it is time for a new set of personalities to keep the club going.

Sounds harsh, and I apologise if it does read as such, but the excuse of not being kept up to date is simply not acceptable when so much is available to everyone.

This is the first moment the idea was given birth: **LINK**

Then they actually, specifically, asked for thoughts and comments : **LINK**

There is even a forum style discussion with actual real members of the council who are involved in the NFC who welcome any question. The bonus is that you get answers from the folk who know, which quells the guestimations: **LINK**

If that is not enough you even get a recent update from the BMFA : **LINK**

I am sure that they are fully aware of the regulation regarding spacings at air shows!

The only elephant in the room is the fact that some people do not bother to acquaint themselves with these full, frank and completely open sources of information which answers many of the wee gripes that are currently floating around here.

The clarity is all there, for everyone to see, as is the consultation from members that they have repeatedly asked for. 

Edited By John F on 14/05/2015 16:04:32

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Not at all - many of us have searched for any detailed information repeatedly and found nothing but vague ideas. Yes, we should all know about the proposal - and the feasibility study - but the objection is that the project is being driven far beyond this scope, with very specious reasoning to justify crashing ahead with land purchase - and if you believe that it is coincidental then I'd be very surprised...

Edited By Martin Harris on 14/05/2015 16:12:47

[Erfolg]

John not wishing to sound harsh, most of my club members were unaware of the issues, but then again some seem to be trying to pass the book, with respect to the role of the BMFA in informing their members with respect to the intentions. As at club level I have not been party to documents or actions.

I do not recognise the picture you are presenting. In some cses it is almost as if members need to be telepathic, knowing that there is something that they need to search for.

[Colin Leighfield]

I'm always reluctant to criticise because I have seen so many times before in different situations that most people understandably carry on blissfully enjoying what they do, and why shouldn't they, completely oblivious to work going on behind the scenes or even being aware of the channels open to them to remain informed on issues that might affect them.

When something appears out of the blue that causes them to sit up and take notice, there is frequently indignation at not having been kept informed and then the criticisms start. It's understandable and it's human. As I said before, I don't want to get involved in going back over old ground, I just want to see a competent and professional proposal that has the potential to take BMFA forward to the benefit of all of us and future enthusiasts, of whom I hope there will be many more. Clearly it needs to be something new because it looks as if we ourselves sometimes might not be the most exciting of role models, well certainly not me anyway! Fresh thinking and getting outside the box are needed here, I think.

it's just my opinion, that is all. I've seen good people doing their very best elsewhere and give up because situations like this have developed and I don't want that to happen. However, I'm sure that all of us don't wish it either.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I think you missed a link out John F

John

[John F]

Posted by Martin Harris on 14/05/2015 16:10:28:

Not at all - many of us have searched for any detailed information repeatedly and found nothing but vague ideas. Yes, we should all know about the proposal - and the feasibility study - but the objection is that the project is being driven far beyond this scope, with very specious reasoning to justify crashing ahead with land purchase - and if you believe that it is coincidental then I'd be very surprised...

Edited By Martin Harris on 14/05/2015 16:12:47

That's the point Martin. This is still very much a consultation period and the specific reasons for the purchase of the land has been extensively explained on the discussion page I linked to. It is all there.

Just because we didn't have a microphone stuck in our faces asking whether the land purchase, among other issues brought up here, is a good idea does not mean that it was not carefully considered. Don't forget thought, they don't have to ask us either!

Don't forget too that these are professional people who have gone about this in a proper, professional manner, will full reasoning behind the decisions so far taken. The info is there and folk on the forum link provide exhaustive reasoning if you read what has, so far, been discussed.

Sorry Erfolg but this "I wasn't asked / told" is a red herring. The BMFA do tell the members of what goes on, despite you claiming that they do not - they publish the documentation for club seniors to read and brief the club members but all of this info is also freely available on their website irrespective of whether you are a member or not for your own perusal.

Saying you were not told is another way of saying "They did not send me anything in the post" which is not what it is about; the freely available documents online is where the info is.

Clubs are expected to keep up to date and tell club members - that is the whole point of the club and should also be mentioned in your club constitution. If they do not then, I believe, that is not the fault of the BMFA.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

That's that sorted then not looking forward to our club meeting Monday now though, membership of the bmfa is in our constitution but some puddings left out it's our whole reason for existing.

John

[Steve T]

TWS, I was not implying that I would need to visit to benefit from the NFC, what I meant was if I will find it difficult to support by attending, then the same applies for many others. I have no financial constraints, sorry but that is the case, but we are not a hobby with a huge following. Attendance will eventually be the only source of income. It needs to attract through the gate and hands into pockets and wallets. What with? A souvenir copy of a vintage model? I know that sounds childish but give me an alternative that will bring people in. Cafe, everywhere has one, souvenir shop, forget it, flying time? Not really practical insurance wise for general public who have never tried before. Before anyone else thinks I am being negative, I have already offered my voluntary help as a Chartered Engineer but also as a member of I.O.S.H. (HSE) so my support could be there, if Manny asks, he has already accepted for later. It needs more than just model planes, doesn't it?

[Steve T]

If this could attract the youth away from on-line computer gaming and into the air I would be 'over the moon' as they say. Our hobby and interest is turning into an oldies pastime, myself included. That would be such an achievement for the NFC and worth all these pages on the posting that keep repeating the same for and not quite sure.

[Erfolg]

Not wishing to cause any one any offence, yet no amount of bluster can disguise that there is a communication problem. Self congratulation is no recommendation for a job well done.

[Chris Berry]

I've not read all the posts, so apologies if this has already been covered.

The site is currently a farm, an agricultural holding. Is there a guarantee (as much as there can be) that the site will be granted planning permission for the change of use to a model flying site with all the appropriate hours of use etc that we would want?

Surely it would be better to ensure that PP is sorted before committing to a site which may not get PP? As with all planning applications anyone can apply for PP on anyone's land and all the applicant has to do is inform the current owner that permission has been applied for, so that is less of an issue to overcome.

[iqon]

the answer to that and many more questions is confidential...

[Paul Marsh]

I hope they can make a national flying site from this. To hammer the point home, clubs are losing their sites around the country - such as the case of RR Hucknall club. (see thread)

By having a land which belongs to a national body, that land's use as model flying activities is more secure than trusting that you will be still flying at your rented field next week.

[cymaz]

Posted by Paul Marsh on 14/05/2015 19:04:48:

I hope they can make a national flying site from this. To hammer the point home, clubs are losing their sites around the country - such as the case of RR Hucknall club. (see thread)

By having a land which belongs to a national body, that land's use as model flying activities is more secure than trusting that you will be still flying at your rented field next week.

That's the rub. You buy a farm on the hope you can get change of use permission. Neighbours can still complain to the council who could shut it down

That can happen to any club, for sure.

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Paul Marsh on 14/05/2015 19:04:48:

I hope they can make a national flying site from this. To hammer the point home, clubs are losing their sites around the country - such as the case of RR Hucknall club. (see thread)

By having a land which belongs to a national body, that land's use as model flying activities is more secure than trusting that you will be still flying at your rented field next week.

Not really. The security of any model flyer that they will still be flying at their existing rented field next week is actually infinitely more likely than the security of an as yet untested flying site, irrespective of who owns that site.

[Chris Berry]

The issue with planning permission is that whilst planning permission may be granted with no issues, environmental health regulations mean that an activity acting lawfully under planning regulations can be in breach of EH regs and the activity can be stopped by EH even if EH comment on the planning application and find it fully or moderately acceptable subject to conditions.

I would be very concerned if the site was purchased without these issues having been ironed out, or at least serious considered prior to land purchase.

I would obtain PP then operate the site on a lease hold basis for, say, 5 years with a penalty clause before purchase requiring the land owner to pay £x if the lease is terminated. That way any neighbour complaints can be ironed out before committing.

In fairness, I've not been involved in the process and don't know any facts so can't criticise too heavily. I am surprised the site is L shaped, a large square would perhaps have been better but I suppose it depends on the land for sale, no doubt time will tell.

[David Elam]

Do you really think that they will not have considered this and made sure that planning won't be an issue.

I suspect I'm one of very few BMFA members who have dealt with the BMFA on a very serious matter and throughout that long period I had nothing but the utmost respect and trust in the decisions and advice they gave. Ultimately this issue is about trust and as far as I'm concerned I'm happy to place mine in their hands as I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they're doing.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The sooner Saturdays been and gone the better

John

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Steve T on 14/05/2015 17:37:09:

we are not a hobby with a huge following. Attendance will eventually be the only source of income. It needs to attract through the gate and hands into pockets and wallets. What with?

Agreed, but I think it ought to be possible.

Again, apologies if this is straying away from the main topic of BMFA communication. Still thinking along the lines of income, could the best opportunity for making money from the general public simply be model flying?

I think of it this way. If I wake up one morning with a sudden and unexpected urge to go skiing, and have never done it before, then I can ring up a UK ski centre (e.g. Sheffield, Milton Keynes), book a session with an instructor, hire all the kit I need, turn up, have a go, and leave at the end of the day having made no commitments, invested no money in equipment or membership, and not had to do any preparation, research or practice beforehand. Maybe I'll have enjoyed it so much that I subsequently take it up later as a hobby.

Similarly if I want to have a go at paintball, golf, quad-biking, Go Ape, shooting, and half a dozen other outdoor activities that I can think of.

But what if I want to try model flying in the same casual manner? I'm not talking modelling, Suppose I have no interest in building or understanding ESCs or servos, I just want to fly. Where do I go?

Not quite so easy is it?

[iqon]

You can have a go at most clubs , and its free......

[Dave Hopkin]

I really don't think that the number of people waking up with an urge to fly an RC plane will provide enough income to sustain the NFC - besides that it would mean you have to have people and models on hand waiting for them to turn up - that would probably mean employing someone to sit and wait for them to turn up - plus its almost impossible to predict how many would go for it so building a business model incorporating that would be pure guesswork

I am guessing that we would be looking at a pretty hefty sum to maintain the buildings, staff, airfield - plus if there is to be public access to things like a museum and cafe/refreshments there would need to be permanent staff to cover Elf n Safety plus serving them etc. How much revenue can you realistically expect to generate from that?

I fully support a NFC but am deeply concerned about its sustainability and remain pretty well convinced that the NFC needs to be combined with some other preexisting complimentary attraction that already generates a reasonable public footfall to be viable in the long term

[Colin Leighfield]

If it's run simply as a model aircraft facility, it is going to struggle. The key is to produce an attractive venue which which can generate income by offering conference facilities and business meeting facilities, exactly how the Motorcycle Museum has done so successfully. With the museum providing a historical background, a bit of imagination could create wider interest. Perhaps it would be possible to have one or two full-size planes on display? It would certainly be a good place to host educational visits organised with the schools.

We are part of a wider aviation interest, certainly for me model planes are simply part of my life-long interest in aviation, I don't see it as being something entirely separate. This is the reason why I look forward to seeing the business plan. I think this is about raising the profile of our hobby in a constructive way, strengthening our image as a credible and organised sporting activity and generating income to further our wider interests.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Steve T on 14/05/2015 13:09:15:

I now have a figure I needed, along with a few others. 33,000 - 35,000 modellers/pilots ! I am on the east coast, no motorway to the midlands or anywhere else, 2-1/2 hours if lucky. This will never be a place I will visit. Sorry but it is as simple as that. I know you can't please everyone but it has to be something very special to commit time and money to travel so far and to what is considerably smaller than Barkston. Oh dear!

The annual Nats pilgrimage is a good two hour drive with the caravan for us from Colchester, and the Modelair days at OW are also around an hour and a half (can't make it this weekend though). If the National Centre is able to emulate in its own way, these two sites, then I'm happy to make the effort and travel for a weekend away at a fly-in.Having compared the Lawns farm site area to two club flying sites that I use (23 acres and 63 acres, both roughly square in plan) I'd say forget any chance of running the Nats there as it stand now............it's just not going to fit!

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Maybe the days of the Nats as we've known it are numbered and it'll have to evolve to survive. Might be that you don't need an area the size of Barkston anymore in the BMFA's thinking. The where it is already exists, some travel a long way to Barkston and for some like myself it's a 90 mile round trip. I have travelled thousands of miles fishing, Airshows, modelling events, football, there is no perfect for all venue, but if it's worth going you do. Like others i'm looking forward to what the study says.

John