New Laser engines. What do you want?

[stu knowles]

My main motivator to change over to petrol motors is the get rid of the oil all over the airframe and the damage it causes to the paint.

If might consider staying with glow if you produce an engine which runs on low oil content fuel and doesn't blow so much out of the exhaust.

So for me, clean exhaust and a moderate noise signature would be the areas to target

[cymaz]

I know just engines do a lot with mufflers/ exhausts. It would really interest me if someone came up with a decent, well designed muffler. One or two cannister options that bolted onto specific engine exhaust flange fittings....if you get my meaning .

I know Bisson do lots of exhausts. I have one on my Evo20cc, I still had to put extra tubing on it to pass our 84db limit. With more sites become noise sensitive this could be a goer as Laser engines have always been nicely quiet. Probably on part to the engine design, but still, the muffler helps a great deal.

Edited By cymaz on 20/11/2015 06:28:58

[Jon H]

there are a few things that can be done to reduce the amount of oil from a glow engine.

Firstly, choose a fuel with less oil. Many fuels still have 20% oil which is extremely high. 15% is a better bet and for Lasers 10% is just fine. For those worried about warranty I run all of my engines, including an old OS 15fp plain bearing two stroke on the 5% nitro 15% oil laser fuel and have no issues with it even though it was recommended for 20% castor.

Use a fuel with less nitro. If you use 5% nitro not 10 your fuel consumption will reduce and so will the amount of oil. It is also much cheaper to buy and you will use less of it so economy improves a lot. There is no need for anything more than 5% nitro in any aircraft engine with the exception of YS.

Make sure your engine tuning is right. Peak the engine for max RPM and leave it there. Do not richen it back up buy 1/4 or half a turn as there is simply no need. Also make sure your slow run needle is set correctly as a rich bottom end causes higher fuel consumption below 1/2 throttle and most of this fuel is not burnt so just flows out of the exhaust as a trail of white smoke. Also, unless you plan to do some prop hanging do not do the 'nose up test' as it is absolutely pointless and will only lead to an excessively rich mixture.

one last thing about tuning is that an overheating engine is often mistaken for an engine that is too lean. This is not always the case and usually the problem comes from inadequate cooling. The classic example is an engine that was fine on takeoff and slowly lost power over a 5 minute flight. Either the cooling is poor, or the engine has been run at high power for too long. Most air cooled engines (in the world that is) cannot maintain full power indefinitely as they have insufficient surface area to keep cool. Better cooling baffles and more use of throttle can help cool the engine and use less fuel all at once.

These issues are even greater on a petrol engine as they often run hotter than glow

[Bob Cotsford]

The boxer twin - I'm afraid that you are right Jon, at a similar cost to the V twins I would be very tempted in view of the reduced cylinder height compared to a single, and the easier tank location compared to a V. Add on another couple of hundred and it moves the price beyond what I'd be prepared to pay for an everday working engine.

When it comes to comparisons with the cheap Chinese petrol motors, people tend to forget that a decent silencer system will add £100-200 to the purchase price, hence the importance of getting any included exhaust right so aftermarket units aren't needed.

Small petrols - it would be nice not to have to fuel proof, but judging by my 10cc Evolution the only thing it's got going for it is the novelty factor. A 46-55 size glow motor is lighter, cheaper, quieter and easily as powerful. Or better yet, use a 60 or 70 four stroke.

[ken anderson.]

this thread reminds me of 'brain storming sessions' at work when people were asked to comment on things...and the replies however they came were discussed and taken on board/actioned....obviously the cheap common sense/safe to implement one's were adopted straight away.As regards laser engines...i think a lot of people's wish list's will never appear..purely based on the fact of the cost to develop(which the company will be hard pushed to recover from sales)..i think...(i maybe wrong) that people are moving away from ic to electric,and the only people staying with ic are the 'older' flyers and the scale comp lad's...although i think electric c/w sound systems is starting to take over also.So from jon's point where does he and his firm go with the engine's? ....impossible to say...... i dont think you can churn out the same forever and a day...i may be wrong..but?

 

please accept this as my opinoin of the matter and dont take it the wrong way..

 

ken anderson...ne...1...... looking in from outside dept.

Edited By ken anderson. on 20/11/2015 10:25:29

[Andy Meade]

Well. I'm looking for something big, petrol, 4 stroke for my fifth scale Wilga, that will also be towing gliders.

Multi cylinder? Yes please! A triple rotary up to 150 / 160cc would be ideal.

[Tomtom39]

Hello Ken,

A personal observation to your post re the comment that "people are moving away from IC to Electric" (and this is based on my experience at the three clubs I belong to) .I'd very much like to add my two pence worth here. As a rule I categories members into two groups Modelers and model flyers. Modelers appear to be made up experienced (old!!) who predominately build and fly IC with some smattering of electric usually for smaller models up to 4 s (the odd 6s creeps in here and there) and then the new members (new to three years in the club) with their electric powered ARTF's. Some of these models spanning several meters and up to 12S (ie electric equiv of 30-50cc IC).

Being a returnee after a long break in modeling I've graduated along with many of the "newer" members either back to flying both or fully to IC . You may ask why. In my case I've got fed up of spending a fortune on batteries to end up binning them after two or three years (or in some instances recently within a few months !). I understand I now fall under the category of S.N.O.G (sad old new git!).

Re the sound system . I have the Bendini one with twin speakers great for ground and possibly on a pass when I have reduced the RPM on the elec motor. (I have reverted to fitting a Laser V )

The above by the way is for fixed wing only as in the main the Rotary boys (and girl) have gone electric . I'm pretty much the only one breaking the trend here as I prefer scale (and retro) helis.

[Jon H]

Hi Ken

Your comments are received as intended so no worried there. And you are right, time moves on, the hobby moves on and we need to be producing the engines that people actually want.

I am still not convinced by the sound system thing with electric flight. I have not yet heard one that comes close to providing enough sound to be audible at the far ends of a circuit like an engine would. Not to mention the interesting concept of noise testing sound systems.

The sheer weight of speakers amps and batteries cant be good either.

Tomtom, at my club we have guys who are all one or all the other, and a few who do both. I have two electric helis and the problems I have with the batteries is enough to make me never want an electric plane about a 3s 3200.

A few chaps, and new members especially have gone from electric to IC but of those all have gone 4 stroke only.

The debate of electric vs ic will go on forever, but for me I will never go electric for the simple reason that I get nothing back from the model when I fly it. Sure it looks nice and has plenty of power, but I just get no buzz from it. When my La7 is on the downline of a huge loop with the engine back at idle, swooshing air through the prop and staccato pops and crackles from the exhausts as the engine backfires on the over run it just makes me smile, and everyone who has ever seen that model fly comments on 'the sound'. Electric cant do that.

Anyway, I digress...

Andy, duly noted. Would a 120cc long stroke V twin cut the mustard?

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

For sure the hobby is changing.....my own club seems to be split into small electrics & big (50cc plus) petrol powered models (indeed we have just had the strip lengthened to make landing these big models a bit easier). We do have a few "large" electric models too but the typical 60-90 powered club models that I fly are becoming a rarity....often I'm the only one there flying a "traditional" model.

Much larger models are tending to predominate these days. With ARTFs anyone can buy a huge model that would take a much greater commitment in time & space if the flyer were to build it himself. Inevitably a larger model needs a larger engine & this is the way engines seem to be going. Smaller petrol engines such as the Evolution & OS 10 & 15cc engines seem to me to be just curios, of interest to the dedicated IC man but not a really practical power plant. My own Evo 10 has the weight of a 15cc engine (if you include the CDI & battery) & the power of a 0.46 glow engine & whilst it chucks out less oil than a glow motor the specks of oil don't half take some shifting (thinners needed!!!) Given that I could buy three 0.46 glow engines for the cost of one Evo 10 you have to wonder what the point of this engine is?

Electric flight make a lot of sense from the mess/noise/ease/convenience point of view but like Jon I get a buzz from running the engine.....every time I fire up a model engine I'm back to being a 11 YO running my DC Wasp for the first time. Plus as Jon observes there is great satisfaction in exercising the skill to tune & handle an IC engine.

[perttime]

Something that sounds like a 3 cylinder Kolm but isn't quite that big and expensive...

Doesn't matter what configuration it is, as long as it fits in a Spitfire nose, and similar.

[Jon H]

Steve, you have pretty much covered my view of the whole situation there. I cant really argue with any of that apart from the comments from the guys here looking at slightly smaller engines than I expected from the 'model' you mention there.

perttime, again duly noted. I would love inlines but for balance it has to be 2 or 4 cylinders. I hope that is ok?

[perttime]

To me, the sound I hear from Kolm engines is THE THING. I have no clue what technically does it. Perhaps it is the size or rpm range - or the exhaust???

[Jon H]

its a large displacement engine running on open headers, that is about it.

But, our V twins can put on a good show too! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utpG_1Vf3TQ

Edited By Jon Harper on 21/11/2015 09:43:28

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[perttime]

Perhaps bigger simply is better for sound. 360v:

 

Edited By perttime on 21/11/2015 11:24:00

[kevin b]

Very nice and I like it, but still sounds like the Isle of Man TT used to.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Silver Wolf]

I would want a petrol suitable for Mick Reeves 1/3 scale pup/camel and his 1.45 Hurricane.

Regards

SW

[Piers Bowlan]

Jon, you said in your post on page one that;- 'the new petrol glow plugs are interesting but as we don't make them it would be hard to sell an engine for them.' Presumably you don't make glow plugs for any of your engines, so what is the difference, or is that a silly question? If they could work in a four stroke and there is not a significant down side to their use then they could potentially save the weight of the ignition system/batteries, not to mention cost?

[Jon H]

Percy, our 155 really puts the power question to bed. I mean its only 200 rpm shy of a 180 (tested against 2 other brands of engine too) when using the same 18x8 prop and same fuel. Our 80 is also within only 100 or 200 rpm of an OS 91 surpass on the same fuel.

I think part of the perception of our power output is because we have never said what the output is.

As for an 80/100 on petrol. As I have already said don't hang your hat on it because I don't think it can happen. And also would you pay £350 for an 80? I doubt it, even for a Laser.

I don't know about you guys, but I have never seen a saito petrol engine in operation at my club, or any of the others I have visited in the past 3 years. I did see an FG21 being fiddled with at one club but it never flew as they couldn't get it to run properly.

I am not trying to be awkward, but the small petrol engines you guys have asked for already exist, so what has put you off them? If it is just the reports of issues with them, or if its a brand preference then fine, but if the issue is price then I doubt I will be able to do anything for a price that is significantly cheaper, especially on the smaller engines.

I know I am playing devils advocate here, but from our perspective why should we invest in producing a product to match something a competitor is selling, when that competitors product itself is not being sold/used?

Anyway, I will stop giving you all a hard time now, but I would honestly be fascinated to know how many of the small saitos are in operation and any reasons why people have not bought them but would buy one of mine. If I can get the small engines to work, and am satisfied that there is a market for them then I will push in that direction, so any info you guys can give me would be helpful.

Silver wolf, Our 360v should do the job if it were petrol (or glow even! ). In fact there is a customer of ours with a 360v in Micks big hurricane. I don't know if he has flown it yet, I think the butterflies have been getting the best of him for about a year! But, no rush I suppose. It all depends how heavy the models end up.

Piers, this is a valid point but glow plugs are available from so many different places that it is not quite the same thing. Many glow plug manufacturers also don't make engines. OS have made themselves this plug for their own stuff so its not quite the same thing, and also I have no idea if it will work with a Laser!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Bucksboy]

I've got the Saito FG 21, it runs very well and is no noisier than the glow version. It's still a bit messy as all Saitos are. It sips fuel which is good but I bought it for its reliability rather than fuel cost.

[Jon H]

Ok so an 80 size petrol for £350 or less... If the opportunity presents itself I will see what I can do

Bucksboy, it is interesting that you mention reliability. Glow engines are considered less reliable than petrol when in fact the reverse is true. A petrol has far more things that need to be right before it will work. The reason most glow engines stop is because they are set up incorrectly. I have not had a glow engine failure in flight for over 4 years unless something specific was wrong (throttle servo came loose, some debris got in a needle etc etc) and even then I think there have only been about 3 instances.

[Artto Ilmanen]

Thank you Jon for a great thread!

Here are my thoughts (not in order of importance, though..)

1. Pump arrangement: either integrated or not. As said before, helps with the ARTF world and a pumped engine is one of the reasons people go for DLE 35 / DLE 55 etc.

2. Low oil engines. Major reason why our fellow modellers in the USA are switching from glow to petrol. (My experiments with 10% Aerosave oil / 5% nitro have been very good on 240V and 300V)

3. To reach economies of scale I think a 360 boxer for the 50/60cc aerobatic / warbird class and a 240 or 300 boxer for the 30/35cc aerobatic / warbird class. Also, a 3 cylinder petrol at 450 / 465 size could be a killer if you could keep it near the weight of the Saito FG60 (or a tad more but not quite as much as the FG84 weighs) Try to keep the benchmark price nearish the Saito FG60 for similar size engine.

4. Make the boxers 240 to 360 available as petrol versions, too, as you already have done most of the testing on mechanical parts. Once you sort out the carb issue on the 180 single petrol you are on half way to a finished product.

5. Make the CDI available as an option for glow engines that share the same or similar mechanical parts as their petrol counterparts for an extra cost. While the CDI is not needed some folks just like to have it. Also, for those folks that have it difficult to buy glow fuel most of them can buy oil and methanol and mix their own fuel. It's the nitro that is the most evil thing here: you need a license to buy it. Achieving good reliable carb setting(s) when running on straigh glow fuel can be tricky for some folks. The CDI helps here a lot.

6. Consider needle bearings on connecting rod: a truly low oil (2 %) engine on both glow and petrol fuel could be achieved. I don't know how hard this is to achieve, though..)

7. forget about the too agressive a pricing. We want good, solid products that we are proud of! Let's don't compare a Mercedes or Rolls-Royce to Toyota. Masses who do not care of a quality will by the low cost chinese engine in anyways!

-Artto

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited By Artto Ilmanen on 22/11/2015 01:56:34

Edited By Artto Ilmanen on 22/11/2015 02:00:48

[cymaz]

Well done Jon on asking for us to do the market research. We are the buyers after all. Jon obviously cares about his product and wants it to succeed.

What he decides, I'm sure it will be the right one