Depron Daz Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 There was a recent discussion on a Facebook page about one guys interpretation of what is a "Scratch build". His interpretation was that of designing the plane itself, the drawing of all of the components, and then the building. Anyone building from a plan (and I take that as meaning including a 3 view drawing and the subsequent making of formers and ribs to fit) doesn't constitute a scratch build, according to him, that is. However, I do not agree, so would like to hear what others think. I am building a 1/7th scale Hunter as you may know, from depron. I found some line drawings online, which included fuz formers and wing ribs, and to save money I redrew them and scaled them up to suit. So up to that stage I have NOT designed the plane, but I have drawn it. In all reality all I had to do was draw the plane's outline, and not the fuz formers, as I have actually doubled the amount required and resized them all by 3mm. The ribs are in my opinion slightly wrongly sized and not enough, so I will be making new pairs as I make my way down the wings. There were root ribs and formers missing on the original plan but as it was a small plan, I guess they weren't needed. Therefore, I am having to "scratch build" as I go. I am making everything in matched pairs, and so far everything is spot on. Once the framework is all done, I then have to make the skins to cover it all. Therefore, is this a scratch build? IMO it is. Even just using a shop bought plan and providing your own wood and cutting your own parts is IMO scratch building, but what is the general consensus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 My opinion Daz, if you start with a plan and some materials you're scratch building If you draw a plane up you're designing, then scratch building it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I suppose that it isn't really practical to build all the components for a model from scratch. It is of course possible, but wheels, spinner, horns etc. are just too time consuming, and demand some pretty specialised tools So, for me, a model that is not built from a kit, is scratch built. Whether the builder has designed the airframe, is a bit of a headscratcher, but again, this is too difficult , because I certainly would need to build several prototypes to get things just right. I've got KK Falcon on th building board right now. I downloaded the drawings, Bought about a million sheets of balsa, but all the aforementioned bits and pieces are from the excellent Balsamart ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head, John. The clue is in the wording - what does designing have to do with building? You can scratch build your own design, or that of someone else...you could even get your own design kitted and do a kit build of it! Edited By Martin Harris on 13/04/2016 12:20:45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Foxtrot Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 My definitions for what they are worth: Drawing up and building from your own plan: scratch build. Starting from a plan: plan build. Starting from a kit: kit build Assembling an ARTF: assembly. I am sure there are other shades and that this is subjective, but the words ought to describe what is involved in the process of making a model aeroplane. Edited By Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:35 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Cotsford Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I'm with DF, a scratch build starts with a blank sheet of paper - or is that 'file' 'new' these days? If you are assembling any sort of kit or starting from a plan, then you are not starting from scratch. Simples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Jones Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Well in my early computing days a "Scratch Disc" was an American term for a normally empty disc used for saving temporary data. Another American term I've come across is a "Scratch Pad" as in a blank peice of paper for scratching (scribbling) down an idea. All this implies to me that scratching is starting out with an empty sheet of paper or whatever medium is used. On the other hand we could forget "scratch" and use some other British word that more clearly identifies it's meaning. Edited By Ian Jones on 13/04/2016 12:49:25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Posted by Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:15: My definitions for what they are worth: Drawing up and building from your own plan: scratch build. Starting from a plan: plan build. Starting from a kit: kit build Assembling an ARTF: assembly. I am sure there are other shades and that this is subjective, but the words ought to describe what is involved in the process of making a model aeroplane. Edited By Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:35 In that case there is no such thing as a "scratch built scale model" as the external shape, wing planform and tail surfaces and moment arms were planned by the original designer For me - this "definition" works Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 My own take on this is who designed the structure. If you are building from a model plan with all the internal structure detailed it is a plan build. If you are starting from just an outline view of a full size then it is a scale scratch build. If you are not following any predetermined outline then it is a scratch build. To me it is the end product and how it was achieved that is important, not what it is described as. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Foxtrot Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Posted by Dave Hopkin on 13/04/2016 12:59:09: Posted by Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:15: My definitions for what they are worth: Drawing up and building from your own plan: scratch build. Starting from a plan: plan build. Starting from a kit: kit build Assembling an ARTF: assembly. I am sure there are other shades and that this is subjective, but the words ought to describe what is involved in the process of making a model aeroplane. Edited By Delta Foxtrot on 13/04/2016 12:19:35 In that case there is no such thing as a "scratch built scale model" as the external shape, wing planform and tail surfaces and moment arms were planned by the original designer For me - this "definition" works Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled. I don't agree that my definition precludes scale models at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Jones 2 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 In today's world, defining scratch builder is easy ... Someone who does not open a large colourful box and then assembles the 3 pieces of brightly covered model, adds radio, don't forget the gyro to make flying tolerable, then goes and flys... Any hint of damage due to running off the runway into 2" grass which rips off the under cart.... then throws it away as they don't know or have the time to fix .......and buys another.. Respect to those who buy strip of balsa and cut pieces out !!!!!! As to those who actually design, produce drawings and share with other true modellers, you are an aging breed and long may you inspire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iqon Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Scratch build ?, make it up as you go along...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Fenton Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I am with most, to me a scratch build means you are not following somebody elses plan. Invariably you follow a published 3 view. Building from somebody elses plan is not scratch building in my opinion, and definitely not if you build from a kit. Just my two penneth....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Personally I would say that Scratch Building is building from the raw materials. I would include building from a plan. This mean scourcing thematerial, marking out, cutting out the parts and building the model. |It doesn't make any difference if it is scale nor not. We are talking about the building, not necessarily the designing. Building from a kit of part is kit building obviously. The suggestion that one cannot include scale models because the original shape is already there is absurd. The only thing already done is the external shape, the internal structure is different anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Posted by Peter Miller on 13/04/2016 21:08:13: Personally I would say that Scratch Building is building from the raw materials. I would include building from a plan. This mean scourcing thematerial, marking out, cutting out the parts and building the model. |It doesn't make any difference if it is scale nor not. The suggestion that one cannot include scale models because the original shape is already there is absurd. The only thing already done is the external shape, the internal structure is different anyway. I agree Peter.... my point about scale models was to highlight a flaw in a previous definition which seemed to demand ALL design work had to be original which on a scale only the internals can be original Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Depron Daz Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Some good individual definitions, and its surprising how different some are. It is a subjective matter of course, and my idea of scratch built is this: Regardless of working from "shop" bought plans, or home drawn plans either of a known plane or a home design, or just from 3 views and "ad hoc'ing" the design as you go (pretty much my case with the Hunter) the drawing and cutting out of components from stock material, and the assembly of, to complete a flying model, constitutes a scratch built model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Foxtrot Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I think the flaw was in your interpretation, but no matter. Posted by Dave Hopkin on 13/04/2016 21:16:20: Posted by Peter Miller on 13/04/2016 21:08:13: Personally I would say that Scratch Building is building from the raw materials. I would include building from a plan. This mean scourcing thematerial, marking out, cutting out the parts and building the model. |It doesn't make any difference if it is scale nor not. The suggestion that one cannot include scale models because the original shape is already there is absurd. The only thing already done is the external shape, the internal structure is different anyway. I agree Peter.... my point about scale models was to highlight a flaw in a previous definition which seemed to demand ALL design work had to be original which on a scale only the internals can be original Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Bran Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The term starting from scratch (a line scratched on the ground in sports) seems to have generated all the other "scratch" terms. Starting from scratch was starting from no advantage/nothing, Handicapping might allow others to start ahead of scratch. If you take this to a logical conclusion then to "scratch" build a plane means you should have no advantage, and a plan is an advantage! Me? I'm still trying to work out why if you can dismantle something, you can't mantle it up again.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hopkin Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Posted by Dave Bran on 13/04/2016 21:49:37: Me? I'm still trying to work out why if you can dismantle something, you can't mantle it up again.................. I haven't got that far.... I am still trying to get stuff to fit back in the box they came in...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Todd Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Well for me scratch building has to incorporate some level of design, scratching your head figuring out how to do something sort of sets the mark so design and build is scratch building. Building from a plan takes a percentage of this thought process away and as such is building from a plan using already considered design thoughts. Kit is a kit and artf is an assembly. Just my opinion though, does it really matter as long as you enjoy it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetenor Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 What do you call a guy -or gal - that buys a balsa forest or load of Depron .Draws some shapes on the wood/Depron and cuts out those shapes and assembles them into a flying model .No 3d ,no plans no anything .I think that is true scratch building .I suppose some bright spark will now say " Ah! but he never grew the balsa. In the end result does it really matter ? I mean REALLY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 The semi-authorative definition of the term on Wlikpedia (yes, I know it's hardly the OED) is: Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled. This tends to support the pile of balsa definition, but really, the term means whatever the user intends...at least, until "scratch building" appears in a standard accepted reference such as the OED. Edited By Martin Harris on 14/04/2016 00:39:54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouncebounce crunch Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Well I chose a rib shape from one of Peter plans for a constant chord wing, drew up a wing and fuselage with the dimentions of rib incorpored , softdrink bottle and dolls packaging windows. some timber from an old guitar, some reshaped balsa from another unflyable model. Scratch building or in between? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Posted by Martin Harris on 14/04/2016 00:37:13: The semi-authorative definition of the term on Wlikpedia (yes, I know it's hardly the OED) is: Scratch building is the process of building a scale model "from scratch", i.e. from raw materials, rather than building it from a commercial kit, kitbashing or buying it pre-assembled. This tends to support the pile of balsa definition, but really, the term means whatever the user intends...at least, until "scratch building" appears in a standard accepted reference such as the OED. Edited By Martin Harris on 14/04/2016 00:39:54 Why only a scale model?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Hi Guys, I agree with building from raw materials, but where does that leave us with all the wee bits that are beyond our skills? Wheels, spinners, canopies, etc. Of course, I can make a spinner on a lathe, but !!!!! ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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