Kit builders, what would you like???

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 06/08/2017 15:23:41:

Posted by Geoff Sleath on 06/08/2017 11:35:24:

As for having too many models, I'm not sure there is such a thing

There certainly is a limit to the number of models (or even hoarded kits). It's a simple formula:

N = n+1

Where N= number of models required and n= number of models owned.

Geoff

Nice one Geoff , made me chuckle that .

I hear what you're saying about getting out there chaps and all that stuff , but if i google Ju88 rc , pictures of my 88 and a build thread will appear. Adrian is like a Don Quixote tramping round the shows with it, usually placing second or third in the competitions , with people often asking him where do I get one . However I never get a sniff.

All of my conclusions still come back to the simple fact - not enough people building , Google is the first thing I do when I want something , I dont buy a magazine or go to a show to find something .

All of us are sitting in our own field with a little fence round us . Some people look over but they dont come in .

That is why we all know each other . I dont think the new guys can be youngsters for all of DDs reasons. But they could be some of the middle aged ARTF flyers who are getting fed up with waiting for China to invent their dream plane . There is also the matter of aspiration . You can be the best ARTF flyer in the club but if old "George" turns up with a beautiful scratch built Hawker Fury , you wont be getting much attention and will swiftly be demoted in his presence.

Possibly the only way to tempt those on the fence, over , is to offer build nights during club meetings in the Autumn. Not Warbirds , but relatively simple yet inspiring models of traditional construction .

I was thinking something like the Gee Bee Y sports . Laser cut , it could be made in the village hall on a normal table with no tools and covered in bright solarfilm . The end result is almost ARTF in quality and achievable by anyone so would not be derided by those scornful (or jealous) of anyone breaking out of the mould.

The kit would have to be simple and cheap and I would be prepared to help out here . The lead rep hopefully one of us) in each club leading the charge would subsidised.

I am going to be really honest with you though , If it is just down to me , I will just nip out the back door and do something else , I'm going to do that anyway , I just feel , that for the sake of the building we all love , maybe we should have one parting shot before pulling up the drawbridge .

Richard

Well Richard that would be very sad news to hear if you gave up on this. I know I'm not at present a customer of yours and it doesn't currently help your cause but I certainly planned to have a kit or so at some point.

I'm also aware of the time and effort it takes to do this so I can see why you can get disheartened.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not for me to tell you what kit to do, however i would stump up for an FW190 120 size ish. pay upfront or whatever suits.

[RICHARD WILLS]

If all this comes over as a whinge , then I apologise for conveying the wrong message . Its not really about my company going down the pan, because it isnt . Its being forced to change direction and may well thrive because of it .

The book "who moved my cheese " sums it up nicely . It's recognising when there is no demand and changing tack .

No , the problem is not any of us , it is our fellow modellers , who no longer model , they simply fly .

If the tide could be turned , there would be a point in making kits and the Kits manufacturers would return.

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

I Like the La7 and have a laser 150 for it if it'll go in. (haven't checked yet) but it would be a winter build. And I need to get some money together. expensive time of year for me.

[RICHARD WILLS]

So in a nutshell .

If you give me or Darren some more money for another kit , it wont change anything .

But if you inspire one person to take the step from making ARTFs to making a proper kit ,you potentially double our group very quickly and so on.....

More demand = more kits -= more choices

[Jon H]

Posted by Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters on 06/08/2017 21:56:20:

I Like the La7 and have a laser 150 for it if it'll go in. (haven't checked yet) but it would be a winter build. And I need to get some money together. expensive time of year for me.

I think you would need about 72'' span for the 150. At 62 inch 80 or 90 is likely to be a better size

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

Baby steps Richard. If I bought a kit I would most likely do a build blog on the FB Page. I'm not too precious that I wouldn't build your product on my page, on the grounds that a) it's fun and b) it's a fighter lol.

Also I have a very nice Laser 70 too that I could use for it. That might inspire someof the 250 page members who come from Cornwall to Scotland and some of which are very prolific builders. It suits me just fine to encourage new builders into the fold.

Might even encourage Richard to broaden his advertising horizons. All of my marketing I endeavour to do is free and although the Funfighters dont earn me a living wage I do it for the love of doing it. Each and every time I use the internet to promote my wares I make some sales which not only brings in some funds, it also promotes building.

I find that on Facebook every time I publicly answer a query at least one or two others learn from it. an immediate response is rarely there in terms of sales but it sows a seed and sooner or later that seed germinates.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Paul Johnson 4]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 07/08/2017 00:24:50:

I have not set out and built a model for many years, probably a lifetime for many on this forum.

If I did build one it would be rather rough compared with the fantastic models featured on this forum and the occasional super built models I meet at the club.

Therefore, though I so much admire the builders and the models, I will stick with ARTF rather than risk the ribaled laughter that would greet my humble attempts at a thing of beauty.

Tom

The BF110 on the forums is my second only build. You would be suprised at what you can achieve. If you believe you can't....you won't. Have a little faith and throw caution to the wind.... you know you want to build one...

[RICHARD WILLS]

I think Tom has highlighted another part of the problem .

Twenty or thirty years ago , every one had to make their own trainer , It was expected that the model would be a bit of a pigs ear , so nobody batted an eyelid if it looked like the house that Jack built and was painted with some emulsion left over from the decorating , The club trainers and old hands would make it safe and then off you went, without so much as a tut or snigger from the rest ,

This was an issue in my club , when we did a group build on the club nights. Although it wasnt voiced many were concerned that their final result would be derided by those perfectly finished ARTF flyers.

That is why a village hall build must be solarfilm covered as it instantly assumes the look of on ARF.

The instant retort for any criticism , is a very assertive " At least I bloody built mine " ,

A close friend of mine just built a Magnitilla from just a plan (not even a kit ) it was his second model build and it looks just like he bought it ready made . He was a guy who considered himself "bloody useless with wood"

What these people need is a little face to face support , which we used to get in the old model shops and clubs.

They can all build , they just "think " they cant .

[Bob Morris 2]

I have always wanted to build a Gloster Gladiator, but with the demise of Complete a Pac and doubt over the availability of the Brian Taylor design and wood pack I cannot find a suitable kit.

This would make an excellent winter project especially since my youngest son has demonstrated a healthy interest in balsa bashing.

Bob

[Jon H]

Tom, try not to compare your own skills to those of greater experience as you arent really being fair on yourself. Noone is born knowing how to build the most awesome looking scale model and its all a learning curve and if your artf flying club mates give you stick for a less than perfect finish then a simple 'ok, lets see you do better' is likely to shut them up.

A few years ago my club did another winter build of WWI aircraft and a young lad of 14 with no build experience of any kind (his grandfather built his models before he passed away) wanted to get stuck in. I helped him by framing up one wing to show him the procedure and then he was off on his own. Its a bit rough in some places, and the fuselage is not 100% straight, but it will fly just fine and once in the air nobody will notice.

So dont be afraid, just get stuck in and if you arent sure ask for help.

Bob, count me in. A gladiator would be lovely

[Paul Johnson 4]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 07/08/2017 07:40:40:

What these people need is a little face to face support , which we used to get in the old model shops and clubs.

They can all build , they just "think " they cant .

I was guilty of ARTF until I was looking for a Spitfire of a difference.

It was through Richards encouragement and help I've now got the bug..... we all need to help to give a little 'push'...

[Joakim Karlsson 1]

I second the Glister Gladiator request!
Or J8 as it was called in Sweden.

Around 1200mm would be nice and easy to transport.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQg1adxh-KyA8f_JILaAr1Lb6GbHzKHiNj3c_D_aoPfNW_fPqOo

[Jon H]

1200 is a bit small, i was thinking more of 1500 -1700

[Joakim Karlsson 1]

That would certainly make for a better flying model.
But I live in an apartment and 40-60 sized airplanes is my limit.

[Bob Morris 2]

Hi Joakim,

I understand your need for ease of transport but I would like a Gladiator of roughly the same size as Brian Taylor's at 56" wingspan if my memory is correct, or maybe the CAP was 56". Anything in the 56" to 65" range would also tempt me to invest in my first Laser four stroke. Up till now I have only had OS, ASP and SC engines.

I think that would be a winning combination

Bob

[David Holland 2]

I'd be up for a "glister glodiator" too, or perhaps an Avro 504 (is that a warbirds?) or a Sopwith Pup. 15-1700 would be good. I do fancy a scalish biplane, something quite slow and floaty. Trouble is, I guess, that there are as many choices as there are modellers and unless Richard or any one else can come up with an affordable bespoke kitting option we are going to have to build spitfires (nothing wrong with that) and tiger moths for all eternity. I really do see a trend back to actually building stuff, we are seeing less artf's and more builds at our club and I, personally, have got back into balsa bashing after years of buying ready to go aircraft and have had great pleasure from resurrecting a few old but much loved airframes from my first r/c modelling incarnation. I have converted everything to work of the "lectric light" but that doesn't make me a bad person!! Certainly the quality laser cut kits available now make building a pleasure compared to the dire die-crushed offerings of yore. Not quite sure where this ramble is leading but I think if our stalwart kit producers can hang on a little longer they will see an upturn in sales.

David

[Paul Johnson 4]

I'm beginning to think Jon has a size complex....

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by Tom Sharp 2 on 07/08/2017 00:24:50:

I have not set out and built a model for many years, probably a lifetime for many on this forum.

If I did build one it would be rather rough compared with the fantastic models featured on this forum and the occasional super built models I meet at the club.

Therefore, though I so much admire the builders and the models, I will stick with ARTF rather than risk the ribaled laughter that would greet my humble attempts at a thing of beauty.

Having assembled a few 'scale' ARTFs there are a couple of things to bear in mind.

Most ARTFs that you will see at a club are wildly inaccurate in shape and colour.

Most ARTFs are built to fly and rarely cope with a heavy landing, usually needing a minimum of the U/C mounts gluing back in, often much more. Because they are lightly built from heavily fretted ply they are not easy to repair and if they have printed covering you are pretty much stuffed short of a complete recover.

Once on the strip or in the air whatever your skill level your model will look good and have an authentic outline and colour scheme! What's more, if repairs are needed then you have a much better chance of making it an invisible repair

[Paul Johnson 4]

I do think the point to this pondering is highlighted in looking at the 110 thread, myself, DD and Graham are posting..... 40,000 views and not one mention of.... can I get one?

Even if 5% of those views produced an order would come to 200 orders.

No wonder Richard feels like giving up.

[Jon H]

Posted by Paul Johnson 4 on 07/08/2017 11:03:35:

I'm beginning to think Jon has a size complex....

Go large or go home

Within reason though, 80 inch span is pretty much the limit for club models.

As for the gladiator, if the wings were two piece it wouldnt be too massive. The reason i suggested bigger is small gladiators tend to be like bricks in my experience

[Tony Bennett]

at my club yesterday there were 15 members and only 2 of us had own built models.

so i think the building side of our hobby is dying off gradually.

i do hope not as it will be a loss to the hobby if the kit company's disappear.

Tony B

[lightning 759]

Posted by Paul Johnson 4 on 07/08/2017 15:13:11:

I do think the point to this pondering is highlighted in looking at the 110 thread, myself, DD and Graham are posting..... 40,000 views and not one mention of.... can I get one?

Even if 5% of those views produced an order would come to 200 orders.

No wonder Richard feels like giving up.

personally I would like to purchase most of the kits Richard makes but even one purchase has to be justified as I don't have much hobby money these days

andy

[MattyB]

Posted by RICHARD WILLS on 05/08/2017 22:38:43:

All of your comments are valid chaps . I do not intend to shoot you down . I will also bear in mind that you have not been privvy to the amount of input from both trade and customer I have received over the years . I have also experimented with magazines , both reviews and adverts , (as have my contempories) The fact they no longer exist may tell you how effectiive that was.

The big question is not "how will Warbirds Replicas survive?" That is a side show .

The big question is how will kit builders survive if no new kit builders join the gang? A bit like the Welsh language .

The solution lies in another question : How do we get more people to try building and what is stopping them ?

Richard

I admire the Dunkirk spirit exhibited in this thread, but the your final question is the unsolvable one for me. I simply don't believe there is anything that is both a) stopping people from building and b) within the control of kit manufacturers existing modellers. It's purely about external factors.

Let's start with the youngsters. I'm a Cub Scout leader and have taken models into Cubs for various themed activities in the last 18 months. They were interested, right up until the point they realise assembly is involved; anything that wasn't RTF (and I do mean "take out of the box, charge and fly" RTF, not ARTF) was deemed too hard by the vast majority. The only model that captured their imagination? An FPV quad. They truly loved the experience of the goggles, even though it was a tiny indoor 180mm toy only. Be honest - if you were 8 and growing up today, would you really want to spend months building a stick and tissue fixed wing to fly LOS, or buy an FPV quad for that immersive experience out of the box? QED.

What about those of working age? Well the 20-somethings have plenty better to do than modelling (I know I did!), and are generally in debt from university and saving for houses etc, so hobbies come well down the list. If they are interested it will be RTF devices like the DJI Phantom they go for, not a foam or balsa fixed wing trainer or even a warbird. Those of us from (say) 30-45 are more likely to be cash rich, but with kids and demanding jobs are almost always time poor. Yes I do fly, but it has to be of the "quick fix" variety - no more long days away with a small family around, I need to nip out and be back in an hour or two so I'm not missed. Again, small electric ARTFs or RTF planes or quads (or even simple one or two evening scratchbuilds in depron) are quick and convenient compared to a lengthy balsa project.

45-60 year olds might be the one growth opportunity if you can find a way of puling them in and marketing to them, but it is still going to be tough with so many other pastimes that are quicker and easier to get started in than building from a kit. Interestingly in the clubs I am in the over 60s are some of the most avid consumers of ARTF and PNP models - they have "been there, done that" with building and now want the increased accessibility that comes with modern modelling. Put simply they just want to fly when they want and do other things between times.

So where does this leave us? For me it comes back to why we all built stuff back in the heydays of modelling. Yes building may become enjoyable in the end once you pickup the skills, but for most of us it started as a necessary and frustrating evil needed to participate in the hobby, not a desire in itself. Now it is no longer required huge swathes of modellers have given it up because frankly they'd rather do something else with their time! Building from a kit or plan is undoubtedly more rewarding in the end if you judge it purely as an aeromodelling experience, but the opportunity cost of all that time spent in the workshop is the key; most people will choose a less perfect ARTF model and more time with their families, friends and other pastimes.