IC Models-Should we be worried?

[Former Member]

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[Former Member]

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[Kim Taylor]

Posted by Percy Verance on 03/11/2018 23:25:57:

I've tended to notice more youngsters in model car clubs than in model flying clubs. Cars are generally seen as a *man* thing, whereas aeroplanes can tend to be seen as slightly nerdy by the younger generation.

I'm in my 60's now, and I'm starting to get too old to worry about such things I'm afraid.

I can't say if it's relevant, but a certain Lewis Hamilton started out in RC car racing, maybe some knock on from that.

Mind you, his dad had a plan.

And you're right, when you get to this kind of age, it's surprising how little some things matter.

Kim

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[andyh]

Posted by Percy Verance on 03/11/2018 21:49:24:

In the decades I've been involved in the hobby I've seen very few youngsters come into it.

it's my impression that the hobby is currently attracting more new young beginners than for many years - perhaps even since its heyday in the 50's - it's just that they're building & flying quads rather than planes.

it may not be balsa bashing & tinkering with oily engines as was the new thing back then, but I doubt 50's kids were very interested in 1890's technology - certainly not 1890's aviation technology!

times change*, technology moves on & the hobby adapts, but I think the fascination with flight will always be with us.

* I wouldn't recommend trying to buy a pint of ether in Boots these days.

[David Davis]

Posted by Nigel R on 03/11/2018 22:40:18:
ChrisB.

Add irvine to that list. And enya. At least.

Generally they all worked pretty good if left alone after setting up.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the list I gave earlier, I'd forgotten about Webra!

"If you chose a reputable make of engine: OS, Irvine, Super Tigre, Thunder Tiger, Enya, Laser, Saito even ASP and SC, given proper running in, they'll give long and reliable service."

So what have we learned from the accumulated wisdom of previous posts.

1. That this is an ageing hobby and supplies of traditional material, Solartex and new two-stroke engines for example, are diminishing due to falling demand as more and more traditional modellers go to that great flying field in the sky or change over to the convenience of electric power for smaller models and the alleged superior reliability of petrol engines for larger ones.
2. That some of us don't like to get our hands or models dirty so prefer to fly the cleaner electric powered or petrol powered models referred to above, but it's a free country isn't it?
3. That supplies of methonal-based glow fuel are diminishing with falling off in demand.
4. That the youth of the country are not interseted in aeromodelling and certainly that they are not interested in spending all winter building a Super 60 from scratch when you can buy an ARTF Boomerang or even a drone for a £100 and have it in flying condition within a week. Besides they will have to acquire the skills to compete in a much more competitive jobs market than that which we entered when we were young, so they're concentrating on their education and do not have the time for aeromodelling.

As an example of the modern situation I offer you the flight line at my club yesterday afternoon. It was a calm sunny day and I decided to take just the one model, my eight-foot Senior Telemaster (STM) powered by a Thunder Tiger four-stroke. There were nine pilots there; six of us of retirement age, a retired Legionaire in his thirties, a lad in his twenties, Jean-Elie, who is a competent pilot and the son of one of the retirees but whom we had not seen for nearly a year, and a child aged nine. My STM with its eight-foot wingspan was by far the biggest model and the nine-year-old started asking me questions about it. Jean-Elie soon joined him. Both were surprised and impressed when I told them that I had built it myself. I had to explain what Solartex was.

Of the nine models on the flight-line all were ARTFs except my Senior Telemaster: two four-channel trainers were powered by OS 46s, the other six were electric powered. Of those one was a high-performance powered glider, the others foamie sports models.

Of the nine pilots there, only three of us had the skill to be able to build a traditional model.

Does this matter? No! When I'm dead or too wracked by the illnesses of old age to be able to fly I shall be beyond caring. Our club makes its own glow fuel so I'll be alright there and have you seen how cheaply you can buy an OS 61SF on eBay recently?

[John Stainforth]

Things have changed so much in my lifetime. When I was growing up (in the 50's and 60's) we did not have phones, TV's and computer, so children were forced to be far more active than today. When we were not doing homework, we were playing organised sports, or playing in the streets, or climbing trees and making things - tree houses, tunnels, models of cars, boats, aeroplanes, theatres, balloons, kites etc etc. We ran or walked to school or the buses. Virtually no one was overweight, let alone obese...

[Peter Miller]

When I first joined (Actually started) the Dunmow model flying club in 1954 we were all teenagers (although that was not a term in use then)

Now we do not have a member under 50 in the local club. We may be getting one in soon though!!

Engines? Well in those days we had a lot of different makes and apart from the odd one or two they all worked well. Some could be a bit tempramental to start until you knew them but they worked. Names like ED Bee,ED Racer still bring a feeling of nostalgia to my heart.

The ultimate was of course the legendary Oliver Tiger, I even owned and used a couple of them over the years.

Then the glows. The Fox 35 stunt. When I got my bounty for extending my RAF service I walked into Henry J Nichols shop and bought one. WOW. At that visit I saw and instantly bought the first Cox Pee Wee and promptly lost it on its first flight.

I can say that the modern engines are superb. SC engines that start first flick out of the box. Four strokes that are absolute jewels of precision engineering.

Fuel? You could walk into the chemist and buy a pint of ether...but then you could (And I did) walk in and buy saltpeter, sulpher and charcoal and the chemist never batted an eyelid.

The gadget pages of Aeromodeller in the late 40s even had details of how to make a bomb to drop form a model that exploded. (Mine didn't)

Now the chemist is only allowed to sell Acetone in 50 ml bottles and yet you can buy it by the gallon on EDay.

Oh you can also buy ether on Ebay but it costs a fortune.

One finnal point that I have made before.

Collecting model aircraft engines is a big thing. I even saw a bog standard Wen Mac .049 NIB sold for £155!!!!

Anyone collecting electric motors in the same way???? I doubt it very much

[Former Member]

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[Cuban8]

The whole electric scene has been nothing but good for the hobby, I can't see how anyone could disagree with that. All of its advantages (especially for the beginner) are well known and understood, and everyone who builds and flys model aircraft now has the choice of power source, depending on what the model is intended for, either in terms of simple practicality for the user or the ability to fly a model where previously any sort of engine noise would be unacceptable. If it pleases the user, then nothing should be considered as wrong.

I like electric, was one of the first in my area to have any sort of success with it back in the early 80s and would advise anyone to start with a 'leccy trainer, for all the good reasons that we agree on. I've become a reasonably competant heli flyer by going down the electric route - no aerobatics or all that funny stuff though . I'd never had bothered with IC helis. Biggest I have is 550 size, so hardly very spectacular, but it was a challenge that I needed to get out of my system. Did my 'A' but haven't flow helis for a while now though - probably just a passing faze. EDF gives me a sort of jet experience, without the ruinous expense for someone on average means. Let's not forget how electric power has revitalised flat field gliding - no more bungees or heavy winches to struggle with, if one chooses.

Go back thirty or forty years, and it was so different. Most new flyers started with a trainer powered by a .40 two stroke and either got the hang of engine operation or they didn't. Cleaning down the model was also simply regarded as part of the flying ritual and given very little thought. I remember lengthy discussions over the patch about what was the best cleaning material to use - and some weird concoctions were brewed up by one or two, and IIRC, were actually no better than washing up liquid. I think one or two commercial cleaners for modellers were available for a time, but gradually faded away.

Electric has done away with all that, and TBH, cleaning gunk from a two stroke model is a pain in the neck. Oil residue from four stroke glows is not so bad and I'm happy to put up with that for the IC experience that's been previously described. Electric is very practical now, and if it's simplicity and the flying experience that appeals then it usually can't be beaten. However, as with many things, straightforward utility and function  is only part of the story.

 

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 04/11/2018 10:50:21

[Mark Howard 1]

Posted by John Stainforth on 04/11/2018 08:20:51:

Things have changed so much in my lifetime. When I was growing up (in the 50's and 60's) we did not have phones, TV's and computer, so children were forced to be far more active than today. When we were not doing homework, we were playing organised sports, or playing in the streets, or climbing trees and making things - tree houses, tunnels, models of cars, boats, aeroplanes, theatres, balloons, kites etc etc. We ran or walked to school or the buses. Virtually no one was overweight, let alone obese...

I think you have hit the nail on the head there.

You may have heard a couple of days ago that a professor of surgery was bemoaning the fact that the surgery students he is seeing these days are very well educated and have all of the mental capacity required, but what they are lacking is manual dexterity. He puts this down to the modern lifestyles of youth involving huge amounts of screen time (whether recreational or educational) and almost no practical/physical efforts.

As you say, as youngsters our world was filled with building things, pulling things apart or modifying them. In those days, we did all of our own car/motorcycle maintenance, built models, built/modified cars/bikes did our own DIY and so on - often out of necessity, often just because we could. Many people these days would not dream of trying to fix their own car or even do some DIY harder than sticking a shelf on the wall.

Our manufacturing industry is at an incredibly low ebb compared to even 20 years ago so people are not being educated or geared up for practical pastimes.

I had a young visitor in the other day who was fascinated with my 1/8th scale traction engine and my half scale hit and miss stationary engine (he'd seen the full size versions at a local show). He was a bit amazed when I said they actually worked and and I'm not sure he believed me when I told him I had actually built them. He had assumed they were just bought from a shop as display items.

There are a lot of youngsters who are into RC in various forms but mainly cars and quads that are either bought off the shelf or bolted together from kits.

Overall, I suspect that the whole flight side of the hobby (maybe excluding quads) is on a downward trend. The convenience of electric over IC power is another indicator of changing attitudes and of the 'instant results required' generation. My guess is that for every balsa IC powered plane out there, there is probably 100 EP foamies (no science behind these estimates) just bought off the shelf and thrown together in a half hour - it's the way of life these days apparently.

All my helicopters are electric as I hate the noise and mess of small nitro engines and all the smaller, non scale planes are also electric. I detest small buzzy, noisy engines - especially 2-strokes so I guess I'm contributing to the apparent decline in IC power. I love the big 4-strokes though.

[leccyflyer]

Hmmm, it's a familiar refrain that the youth of today just have their heads buried in their smartphones and computer games yet, inexplicably, if you have teenage children or take a trip to your local secondary school that will show youngsters vac-forming cases for the electronics projects that they assemble in the various course modules that they complete. What used to be called woodwork and metalwork is now called Resistant Materials or somesuch.

Then there's the whole software and CAD and design studies that form part of the school curriculum. It's just different technologies and the BMFA's Heavy Lift challenge and other events reported on in the BMFA News shows that there are still youngsters out there who can build things - and who have the software and CAD chops to use the new technology. 3D printing and all the systems going into the quad racers and the like are good indicators of that.

I doubt any of the thread contributors were brought up growing their own bamboo or farming their own silkworms and rubber trees.

[Former Member]

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[SIMON CRAGG]

Well, after reading all the comments.................I am still worried............but the posts reflect my thinking, and the way our club is going. We are going to go on a bit of a recruiting drive, although sadly I would be suprised if we pick up anybody under 40. So what are we doing?

Updating the BMFA club finder on "GO Membership". We have always steered clear of this, as we don't want modelers / visitors trying to find our fairly difficult to find site, and driving round the farm tracks annoying the farmer! However, with a bit of careful juggling, I have managed to get us on the map.

Presentation and reciprocal visits to the local ACF. They have a full size flight sim, we have models on the buddy box etc.

Possible exposure in the local press: "Would you like to fly a Spitfire" or similar headline to attract prospective members.

Our biggest recruiters were the local model shops, but all five of them have long gone.

So we are positive, but realistic!.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[David P Williams]

Simon - I don't think you need to worry too much about identifying your location. I have been casting around for a potential new club, and even those who are cagy about location and just state 'near xxxx town or village' or 'in the xxxx area' I have been able to locate pretty easily by spending 5 mins on Google maps satellite view. Most mown patches stand out distinctly, especially when there is a club hut and often cars and models visible in a sea of farmer's fields.

I'm only doing this to work out drive time rather than intending to just turn up and fly there of course.

[Chris Walby]

Supertigrefan, Sorry but I have to disagree, if we don't get youngsters interested the hobby will die with us.

Simon,

A bit radical, but how about contacting your local scout group. Have a chat with the scout leader and see how your club could help with the scouts air activity badges. All the badge criteria is on the Scouts web site and the scout leader should be able to cover the DBS stuff as you'll be a guest. Scout leaders are normally quite open to suggestions and something different for their scout sessions.

You never know the scouts might mention what they did and spark a bit of parental interest.

Can but try.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We entertained a local Scout group recently, set up buddy models for them to fly, bought some pop n crisps, foam model chuck gliders for them to have a bit of fun with, entertaining night and well worth the effort, new members from it ? No, never expected we would.

[Tim Flyer]

My club has a majority of flyers using IC engines. Many fly both IC and electric and a small number electric only . Average engine size has increased in recent years with the cheaper large Chinese petrol engines becoming available. We have a number of IC flyers in their 30s-40s running glow engines. I currently fly glow only . I believe the engine adds an extra dimension to the hobby. I personally find electric engines bland and soulless. In terms of reliability I have never suffered from poor reliability with my engines. I do think that I might be a bit fortunate as I have a good mechanical understanding having started out running and tuning glow engines many years ago. I also use only good quality engines. Making sure my models are reliable and work well is part of the hobby for me .

Edited By Tim Flyer on 04/11/2018 20:17:51

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by supertigrefan on 04/11/2018 16:03:37:

Posted by leccyflyer on 04/11/2018 13:44:39:

I doubt any of the thread contributors were brought up growing their own bamboo or farming their own silkworms and rubber trees.

Well I certainly never but I did use the products of those examples to actually make components rather than buy them ready made and just assemble them.

I'm not suggesting that the younger generation are incapable of manual skills, rather that there are less doing so than the previous generation when it was out of necessity rather than choice, I guess that given the choice back then many would have opted for the easier route.

Surely just a reflection of the 'skills' which youngsters will have to have to find gainful employment in the future.

Engineering and manufacturing generally have been decimated over the last thirty years in this country and replaced with layer upon layer of so called service industries or financial services. Computer skills and literacy are now more important than the woodwork and metalwork which my generation were taught.

My son, who has a degree in motorsport engineering and is genuinely capable of building a car from the ground up has given up trying to make a living out of it and works for a Merc dealership where he plugs a computer into the car and it tells him what to do and which button to press - progress I guess.

Wrt i/c vs electric, I am a recent returnee and have been completely blown away by the practicality of electric.

However, I have also recently built models using petrol and 4 stroke glow engines and have been pleasantly surprised at the lack of 'gloop' when using modern lubricants compared to the 'old days' of caster. I am still tossing up whether my next (scale) build will be electric or i/c, the natural pull of i/c being balanced by the cleanliness and practicality of electric.

And please, don't try the scale sound argument, because I'm sorry to tell you guys, a single cylinder four stroke don't sound any more 'scale' than an electric motor - noisier, yes - nicer, possibly - but scale, no.

Kim

p.s.

my own opinion is that i/c will diminish in popularity as the years go on, probably in line with the advent of electric and hybrid vehicles on the road.

[Former Member]

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[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The 40-50 year old recruits we get are " youngsters" to most of us.

[Geoff S]

Posted by supertigrefan on 04/11/2018 20:18:22:

Posted by Chris Walby on 04/11/2018 19:39:13:

Supertigrefan, Sorry but I have to disagree, if we don't get youngsters interested the hobby will die with us.

I'll have to disagree that youngsters are necessary for the survival of the hobby, there are plenty of examples of pastimes not even remotely of interest to anyone under 50 that are surviving (even thriving) without an injection of young blood, this hobby is no different, in fact by default there has always been a financial barrier for anybody without a disposable income, the mainstay of our chosen hobby is middle aged males and as long as there is a steady flow coming in then it will continue.

I'm an example of that. I was a 55 year old recruit to the hobby when more active pastimes became physically more difficult. I'd been quite active in a practical sense all my life, aeromodelling was just a different thing to do.

Geoff

[Don Fry]

Posted by john stones 1 on 04/11/2018 19:45:13:

We entertained a local Scout group recently, set up buddy models for them to fly, bought some pop n crisps, foam model chuck gliders for them to have a bit of fun with, entertaining night and well worth the effort, new members from it ? No, never expected we would.

But was a seed planted?

[Kim Taylor]

Posted by Percy Verance on 03/11/2018 23:58:20:

Kim, I think Lewis Hamilton was a nifty go cart driver too....

By the way, his dad reckons he's an awful driver on public roads.......

Edited By Percy Verance on 04/11/2018 00:03:19

Percy, I think the feeling is mutual - I seem to remember Anthony wrapping a brand new Merc SLR round a lamp post a few years ago, and Lewis making a similar comment about him.

Lewis was going through the ranks of the UK kart classes at the same time as my son, although he is two or three years younger, so they never raced each other. He was (and is) a very talented driver, but frankly there were at least a dozen others equally as good who didn't have the financial backing to progress up the ladder.

The way of the world, I guess

Kim

Kim