Peter Miller Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Posted by J D 8 on 11/03/2019 16:06:15: A friend who was at the time in the RAF was sent to a Canbera crash site as part of the recovery team. On arrival at the field there was nothing obvious until the farmer pointed them to a spot with three holes in the ground joined together by a thin trench and a few small bits of metal scattered about . Crew had abandoned the aircraft after the controls had jammed and it had gone straight in. After two days digging they were down to the cockpit remains and found the culprit,a loose nut was jammed at the base of the control column. Edited By J D 8 on 11/03/2019 16:06:42 Yes, Canberras alway made that sort of crater. The one I was on had a big crater for the fuselage and engines and two out at the end where the tip tanks went it. That one was a BI8. The navigator didn't have an ejecter seat. He had to get out of his seat, put his chest parachute on. Open the door and get out. I will not go on. Back to the 737Max. An expert said on TV that the convesion course for the 737 Max 8 consisted of 30 minutes on a tablet. Now I can't help feeling that I would want a bit more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Bear in mind the 737 Classic (80s) to 737 Next Generation (90s) conversion consisted of asking the CAA to stamp up your license, and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Cooper Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Boeing claim that the aircraft is safe. . Okay, put ALL of the Boeing management onboard and then have the aircraft do a couple of hundred hours doing takeoffs and landings (circuits and bumps). Also, if any work has been done on the aircraft, put the mechanics onboard for the test flights. B.C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Skilbeck Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Option 1 only works if they take a regular airline pilot who's recently converted to that type and not their own test pilots. Option 2, I've been on flights which have a technical hitch which was fixed at the gate and then we were on our way. My own thoughts here are that it is a single point failure which causes the problem and it's not obvious to the pilots what has gone wrong so they don't take appropriate action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Posted by Brian Cooper on 13/03/2019 16:06:43: Boeing claim that the aircraft is safe. . Okay, put ALL of the Boeing management onboard and then have the aircraft do a couple of hundred hours doing takeoffs and landings (circuits and bumps). Boeing actually did this with the Pratt and Whitney big cheese during the 747 development. The engines were failing left and right but PW didnt think it was as big a problem as they were being told....that was until they took the top dog from PW for a flight and the pilot blew one of the engines up in front of said big cheese. He then blew a 2nd up. As he was reaching for the 3rd to blow that up he was told the problem would be rectified by the now very sweaty PW man and that was the end of that. As for the max situation, assuming the accidents are related, and assuming the mcas is to blame, clearly there is something about the configuration of the aircraft just after takeoff, combined with other factors that are a perfect storm which confuses the system and causes it to over react. It has to be something related to takeoff configuration otherwise we would expect to see accidents at different phases of flight. What this issue is, and why it apparently cannot be countered is likely going to be the main focus of the investigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryorbik Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just read that Mr T has grounded all 737 8's and 9's in the USA. Barry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Member Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 [This posting has been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Marsh Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 The White House has issued an emergency action, over-riding the FAA thereby grounding all US based aircraft. A worldwide ban on the a/c in now in force, even the Max 9 variants. I don't think the public would feel confident using the aircraft at the moment, without the reasons why this horrible accident and loss of life occurred, and recommendations from the NTSB and accident bodies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 WOW!! Mr T has done something sensible at last!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHR Dave Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 With reference to Brian Coopers comments about putting the mechanics on board test flights. I have been aircraft engineer for over 30 years and i know for a fact that any engineer(mechanic) who has ever worked on any aircraft would not have any hesitation in flying on an aircraft they have worked on. Safety is the number one priority of any aircraft mechanic and that fact should never be doubted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Miller Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Always used to love going on Air Tests! My first air tests were on Lancasters. Edited By Peter Miller on 14/03/2019 08:20:33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LHR Dave Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Mine was on B747-100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Chaddock Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 I think Mr T took credit for the announcement but he actually said was "the FAA after reviewing new evidence will ground all 737 -8 and -9 Max aircraft......" rather than "I have instructed the FAA......." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaL Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 As for the max situation, assuming the accidents are related, and assuming the mcas is to blame, clearly there is something about the configuration of the aircraft just after takeoff, combined with other factors that are a perfect storm which confuses the system and causes it to over react. It has to be something related to takeoff configuration otherwise we would expect to see accidents at different phases of flight. What this issue is, and why it apparently cannot be countered is likely going to be the main focus of the investigation. There is an explanation of the factors surrounding MCAS here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Posted by Brian Cooper on 13/03/2019 16:06:43: Boeing claim that the aircraft is safe. . Okay, put ALL of the Boeing management onboard and then have the aircraft do a couple of hundred hours doing takeoffs and landings (circuits and bumps). Also, if any work has been done on the aircraft, put the mechanics onboard for the test flights. B.C. I can only echo LHR Dave's comments and add a development engineers point of view (I do software for the flight systems). A brand new commercial airliner type will complete many, many thousands of flight hours before being certified by FAA. In all the combinations of conditions that they can dream up. Believe me Boeing would not have put the system being questioned on board if they did not believe it was safe, this news on top of the last one, in commercial terms alone, will cost a fortune (reparations, investigation, fixes, recalls), leaving aside the reputation damage (how many future orders will now turn A320), and the human issues of the tragedy. Safety is absolutely the key thing especially for the western aviation industry - quality of our output is paramount. As for flight hours before commercial use, the entirely new Dreamliner for instance had 1700 flights and 5000+ hours. Wiki suggests the MAX 8 testing was 2000 hours. I don't know how many flights that is, but probably 600 or so. As the 737 is a pre-existing airframe, much of the structural stuff and some systems will already be certified and well known in existing use. This always cuts test hours. I don't know the exact figures expected for the other MAX variants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Posted by LHR Dave on 14/03/2019 08:31:49: Mine was on B747-100 Some of my former colleagues at RR flew in an old Boeing owned 747 that was so leaky it couldn't be properly pressurised and had some training about using the oxygen masks provided. IIRC they were involved in monitoring the engines via the RF telemetry our department designed. This would have been in the early 90s I think. So yes, engineers do fly on aircraft with engines being tested. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kc Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Let's spare a thought for the technicians who work on passenger planes ( and some of those are on the forum it seems) - awesome responsibility! Why did they need to find the 'Black' Box? Surely these brand new aircraft should be transmitting the data all the time after the MH370 fiasco....... or has the World learnt nothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 There are moves afoot KC, but it does not seem to be a top hurry. Early 2020's from memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 There are no certified flight information satellite transmission systems around yet. This aircraft was begun around 2010 IIRC and as ever will have been conceived and designed with "the technology of the day". Remember, such a transmission system has to be tied in to aircraft avionics - so will not be a five minute job to knock up. It will need to be resilient and redundant to any "events" that may affect it (fire, etc) and even then will most probably only ever be an adjunct to the black box, as the vagaries of using satellite / phone / etc networks mean 100% coverage is impossible to guarantee. Black boxes are almost always found. They are incredibly resilient devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josip Vrandecic -Mes Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 https://youtu.be/LQCPSXTE9Mg Edited By Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 15/06/2019 09:41:17 Edited By Josip Vrandecic -Mes on 15/06/2019 09:45:54 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers Bowlan Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Nigel, you may be interested in a read of this. As far as I am aware all BA aircraft are fitted with ADS-C and presumably all new aircraft come with it as standard equipment. I've no idea if the two B737 Max aircraft were fitted with it or flying in airspace with ADS-C coverage. Edited By Piers Bowlan on 15/06/2019 11:14:28 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 Piers yes good shout, there are systems en route to work alongside radar for broadcasting position to ATC and they may include some other data. If I recall right the flightradar24 website is using ADB B data. I don't know if ATC use these yet although I believe that is the end goal along with some automated route replanning for autopilot systems. The data transmission aspect is used by the engine manufacturers for real time prognostic type operations and has other applications I expect. For purpose of this thread I was thinking about direct black box replacements. A broadcast system might not be transmitting for a few critical moments whereas the black box is as much guaranteed as can be, to be recording right up to the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff S Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 Posted by Nigel R on 16/06/2019 06:59:58: Piers yes good shout, there are systems en route to work alongside radar for broadcasting position to ATC and they may include some other data. If I recall right the flightradar24 website is using ADB B data. I don't know if ATC use these yet although I believe that is the end goal along with some automated route replanning for autopilot systems. The data transmission aspect is used by the engine manufacturers for real time prognostic type operations and has other applications I expect. For purpose of this thread I was thinking about direct black box replacements. A broadcast system might not be transmitting for a few critical moments whereas the black box is as much guaranteed as can be, to be recording right up to the end. I suppose the 2 systems aren't mutually incompatible and both could be deployed. In cases where the black box can't be found at least same data will be available. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel R Posted June 17, 2019 Share Posted June 17, 2019 Exactly Geoff. And in cases where the aircraft is a off grid from conventional ATC, it makes predicting the recorder's location much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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