Wings and Wheels 2019

[Bill Reed]

I remember a full size display by Gary Newman in his own ww2 plane.

I did mention a bit earlier the commentary is nothing like DB, love his style OR hate it. For me he was PART of the show. I went about 3 years ago and the commentary was ,not good.

[Jon H]

Posted by Bill Reed on 01/07/2019 16:23:59:

I remember a full size display by Gary Newman in his own ww2 plane.

I did mention a bit earlier the commentary is nothing like DB, love his style OR hate it. For me he was PART of the show. I went about 3 years ago and the commentary was ,not good.

Sorry to be devils advocate but again we are talking about times past that will never come again. DB Sound is gone, we now have Nik..thats sort of the end of the story. Like him or loath him, he is the commentator at model shows today. If you dont like his delivery or have ideas for how he could improve, perhaps let him know? Or perhaps buy all the gear and offer yourself as an alternative?  

To be clear, his commentary is not to my taste either, in the same way that the bloke sky have on the F1 commentary really is not a replacement for Murry Walker. But, times have changed, people have changed, the show has changed.

As i said already, it will never be as it was. What can they do to make it better now?

 

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 01/07/2019 16:32:04

[martin collins 1]

Constructive comment re the bring and buy, the kits on offer were all just laid flat on the ground and at a distance that no one could see what was there. They really want a standing on their side so you can see the box and the second row wants putting on trestle tables so you can see them over the first row. Not difficult i would have thought?

[Gregg Veasey]

I thought last year was a big improvement on previous years and I think its gone in the right direction again with the various additions.

The flightline guys were very relaxed and did a great job in very trying conditions as very few pilots were available to, or wanted to fly because of the wind especially on Sunday. We (TJD team) flew most of what we took on Saturday but on Sunday elected to leave many on the ground. I personally had 2 models there but would no way fly one of them in that cross wind as my models take me on average 3 years each to build. I neither have the funds or the time to get them done any quicker so don't want to risk damaging one in heavy cross wind especially on tarmac. My 20 year old Meister P47 though is a different matter and people were probably bored of the sight of it in the air by Sunday afternoon. Hopefully the fact that my 14 year old took to the sticks a couple of times made it more acceptable..

The Weston Park v Wings'n'wheels debate is probably always going to be there but it does pose the question. IF the crowd only want to see models flown that they can purchase/build themselves then why is Weston Park said to be better than WnW.

Edited By Gregg Veasey on 01/07/2019 17:01:54

Edited By Gregg Veasey on 01/07/2019 17:04:30

[John Tee]

Jon , point taken. I will alter one thing I said in that as I was leaving there were I think 8 models up and they looked like the Avicraft Panic displays we used to see at Sandown racecourse many years ago - organised chaos. So that must have been a trade slot.

North Weald is now my "local" show as the only other one I know of is at Headcorn (Southern model show?) but I have not been to that one since they moved from Hop Farm as it Is the same weekend as I came back from the now defunct Brean model week. I am in West Sussex. Only managed to get to Weston once.

John

Edited By John Tee on 01/07/2019 17:11:52

[Martin Dance 1]

I went to W&W on Saturday, it was quite warm! The wind being a from the crowd cross wind clearly made display flying tricky, especially for the smaller lighter models which once airborne would tend to drift away from the crowd line. I suspect that there isn't enough space to have two flight lines but with the present single flight line models are climbing turning away long before they reach the end of the crowd line. The relatively short crowd line was a positive plus for Sandown Park shows. The Weston Park crowd line is a bit shorter than W&W and that helps with the appearance of the flying displays. Also at Weston the displays are being flown through a 'canyon' of trees which places a back ground close to the spectators, not a feature of North Weald airfield. The trade stands at both shows are strung out on a long single line. I wonder whether arranging the trade stands in two probably shorter rows facing each other making it feel busier more 'market like feel would help and perhaps placing the Bring and Buy in a more central location might help.

[Trevor]

I’m always reluctant to be critical of these events, mindful of all the time, effort and, in some cases, expense that so many people put in to make them happen. However, I was at the show on Saturday for the first time for many years, leaving shortly after 3pm. And will offer my two penneth.

First some positives:

The trade presence was impressive and the traders seemed to be doing well and managing to retain good humour in spite of the heat.

The pilots who flew did an excellent job in keeping the display going. The wind wasn’t particularly strong but was pretty much across the runway and clearly causing problems for many. I’m sure they were exhausted after the two days.

The commentary was generally good, supported by an excellent PA system that was clear without being ear-bashing.

The inclusion of the boats and cars does add some additional interest to the show.

The only really negative for me was that, despite the positive comments above, I found the display flying rather ‘samey’ - lots of warbirds and aerobatic models, punctuated by very occasional solo slots of true display models.The latter were much appreciated but overall, the show lacked variety and inspiration.

Personally, having travelled150 miles to the show,I really don’t want to to see a lot of models that I can see at my local clubs, I’m there to see something different that might inspire me, in turn, to do something different. That doesn’t necessarily mean huge superscale models. There are so many aspects of the hobby that were not represented, e.g. autogyros, gliders (self launched or aero-towed, edf (in fact very few electric models of any sort), vintage. I don’t think I even saw a flying wing and, with the exception of a couple of the jets, no canards and very few multi engines scale models.

The inclusion of the drones was arguably an attempt to include something representing the future of the hobby, but there was nothing particularly forward-looking on the main display line. For example nothing showing off what the modern stabilisation technology developed in the drone market can do for fixed wing flying, whether for helping beginners, enabling the modelling of otherwise seriously unstable prototypes, or just helping more ordinary models cope with windy and gusty conditions - as typically experienced on show days!

Anyway, none of the above is meant to be at all critical of those who worked so hard on the day (and had to do it all again on Sunday!), but maybe in future years a bit more thought could be given at the planning stage to building more variety into the display programme to try to jolt old fogeys like me out of our rut!

Trevor

[Jon H]

Posted by Gregg Veasey on 01/07/2019 16:53:19:

. My 20 year old Meister P47 though is a different matter and people were probably bored of the sight of it in the air by Sunday afternoon.

Most of my models had done several slots by Sunday afternoon so i think most were probably sick of those as well!

You are spot on though as all the pilots provide their own models. That model could be anything from a foam acrowot to a 20 grand scale jet, but at the end if your model is broken then you have to deal with it and very often its just not worth the risk. That said and many will chance flying in poor conditions as we know we are there to put on a show. I was fortunate that my weekend only cost me a prop and a little maintenance time. Others were not so lucky.

John, the panic team i think were organised by the caterham club. Someone can correct me if im wrong but i think they are 'civilians' now. Always fun to watch though

Martin, i think one of the plans for next year is to revise car parking and extend the overall flying area. Part of the reasons the pilots do not venture down to the bring n buy end of the flight line is that we are told not to fly over the car park, which is fair enough. If we fly over it the flight line guys get a report on the radio immediately and we get a telling off. Do it more than a few times and you are done, grounded. As a result we tend to turn in/away early to be double sure not to get a telling off.

 

Trevor, One of the problems with choosing acts is the weather because if that act has to cancel due to massive cross wind, something else has to take its place. If there was a vintage slot to go with the WWI slot we had a WW this year, that would have been 4 slots cancelled and 40 minutes we would have to find models to fill. invariably they will be petrol aerobatic models as they are best equipped to cope with those conditions. To prevent that i would say there is a tendency to play safe and not have slots for models that are really sensitive to conditions.

There is also the issue that something like a tiger moth is viewed by some as slow, boring and a waste of airspace. They want fast and exciting! Not everyone appreciates the variety of models it appears you do.

Its also slightly amusing that you seem to be leaning towards wanting to see more expensive impressive models, where as other complain they are too expensive and want to see cheaper ones. Cant please everyone!

 

Edited By Jon - Laser Engines on 01/07/2019 19:45:37

[Martin McIntosh]

From a pilots` point of view the only criticism would be that again we all had to fly from one end well away from the main group of spectators, making doing anything interesting such as aerobatic figures in front of them very difficult for us; also ensuring that we did not over fly the car park as has been said above. This could easily be sorted.

Regarding the crosswind, east on Sat. and west, very strong, on Sun., yes, it made things rather awkward but with the main runway north to south there for some reason, this is often the case.

I am now retired and have all the building time in the world but my Stampe and Spitfire which were flown there still took me 1 year at least of intensive shed time each which probably equates to 3 or 4 years for a working guy.

I was expected to put them in the air and did so whenever asked, never chickening out.

Cost me a £26 prop and a damaged u/c on the Spit. which just about cancels out the free entry to the event.

I found the quad demos on Sun., plus micro ones fly all round the bar on Sat. night quite entertaining. They even took part in the night flying although this excellent entertainment was maybe only to be appreciated by the traders/pilots.

At previous attendances when not taking part I found that just watching small, club type models flying round rather uninterestingly because they were what the traders were trying to flog rather boring. I believe that the public wants to see the more spectacular stuff even though it may be well beyond their reach.

[bert baker]

It cost me a prop as well, £19.50.

I thought it was a good balance of old school kits to modern planes.

without pilots turning up with there own equipment there wouldn’t be a flying display.

Thers nothing stopping anyone forming a group of like mined flyers with same planes and having ago themselves.

the Panic team have been around for a fair while now.,,,nothing stopping a group forming a Wot 4 foam E stunt group,, it would be fairly low cost and planes would be easy to get....

You only need six to eight to make it work,,,

if you have a plane you are comfortable flying but feel it’s not good enough to show let the organisers know, they might have others wanting to do the same....your local club could have a slot ...

it’s down to your imagination and effort .

[John Tee]

Re Jon's comment about the parking, I thought that this year was more sensible - parking in what was parallel to the runway. It made for a shorter walk to the show (I usually arrive a bit late and used to end up in the overflow field.) and easier to access the exit road. As I said to my wife when I got home it only took thirty two years to get that better. Perhaps the wind direction had more to do with it to stop flying over the carpark.

John

[ASH.]

Tim, congrats on acquiring the Slec Chipmunk. It was originally made by Apache Aviation and builds into a very impressive 1/5th scale model. I have one, yet to fly it.. The new version can be made with 2 piece wing.

You do need a nice scale pilot (bust), it has a huge greenhouse canopy.

PM sent

[Tim Flyer]

Cheers Ash I’m looking forward to starting the Chipmunk. I’m going to give it RAF colours. One thing I noticed is that it has wire u/c rather than Oleos I think I will source some oleos for I t to help with the bumpy runway😉.

Regarding the show on Saturday May clubmates and I really enjoyed it . It’s nice to see models beyond what we fly ourselves as it inspires us. One jet was so mad fast it seemed more like a missile than a model... very very exciting to watch but no way would I ever want to fly it 😳. I think the main reason we go is the privilege of physical shopping in an Internet world . The bring and buy is also very important. One thing I noted this year was the absence of Ripmax and some of the big trade stands but the usual stalwarts of our hobby were all there with some amazing bargains making it a very useful shopping day. One improvement that could be made would be healthy food or at least a variety. It seemed to just be burgers or bacon butties! The bar was appreciated though!

[ASH.]

Tim, it would be great to see a build log when you start on your Chipmunk. Yes, oleos are a must on such a model and cockpit detailing - dials and such. There's so much scope for detailing on this one, rivets, leg fairings, landing light etc.

I missed W&W this year, there's Cosford next weekend, possibly. Definately want to go to the Nationals for the weekend in August.

Ps. What bargains did you all get?? - I'm nosey.

[David P Williams]

Tim - I built the SLEC/Apache Chipmunk and used it for a testbed to learn new techniques like fibreglass covering (with PolyC), panels and rivets, rib tapes and stitching, paint spraying, paint masks, home made decals, etc. It's sport scale rather than true scale in outline so doesn't really warrant that level of detail, but I learnt a lot for future more scale projects.

I bought some HK oleos for it but ended up making my own to a more scale outline using the HK springs (I had a new lathe to play with). It came out a bit porky because of the detail, but flies really nicely, like a big low wing trainer (Laser 150 in mine). You will enjoy the build and the flying, on mine the plan was larger than the laser cut parts but just go with the parts and all will be well.

[ASH.]

 

Very nice David, love the detail. What make of paint did you use? And pilot?

Mine is covered in silver glosstex. Heavy but nice!

Edited By ASH. on 02/07/2019 12:25:15

[David P Williams]

Hi ASH - shouldn't hijack this thread any further really, but the paint was enamel, mixed to the correct RAL numbers by Paragon Paints. They sell it for painting machine tools etc., so it's fairly resistant but glossy. I sprayed the whole thing when finished with Aerokote fuel proofer from Deluxe, with their matting agent added to give a satin finish.

Pilot was one of those latex jobbies, a sport pilot painted to look military with an Action Man helmet from Ebay. PM me if you want any more info.

[Lima Hotel Foxtrot]

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 01/07/2019 16:19:23:

So what you see fly is what you can buy at the stalls behind you. As i have mentioned before (this same discussion last year) there is a problem here as people wont pay money to watch an acrowot fly. For a start it would be small at the safe distances we have to fly at and then if you wanted to see an acrowot you would just go to the local field and there will probably be one or something similar there. Its a balance and they are working on it.

Maybe not an Acrowot singular, but I'd pay good money to see 50 or 100 in the air at once! You could have a competition to see who actually lands after the carnage!

[Nightflyer]

Wow it has been interesting seeing the posts over the past day. For my tuppence worth comments:

First, I think it depends on the type of model show i.e.is it a big trade show as Sandown used to be, a fun relaxing weekend show like the old Plumpton show or something in between. The requirements and challenges can be diverse.

Secondly, traders (if a trade show bias) will have some determined views about promotion of their products etc. That said, comments about how trading has changed is very true. Back in the 70's it was not so much about gettting those bargains as being able to get bits and pieces and kits etc that you might not get in your local shop, whereas in the 80's and 90's we saw a massive growth in product choice bulk purchases and bargain deals (all fantaastic times) but the retail world (and model industry) have all had changing times and pressures and now I think the real deal is you can save possibly paying for delivery by stocking up at shows with added benefit of some good flying and catch up with old friends etc. That said, traders these days struggle to have the stocks of parts and we should recognise there are some limitations these days. At the end of the day it is nice regardless of whether a trade show or family fun type show play an important part.

Thirdly, flying I think is true that there is very much a high gloss high cost glitz which can be appealing and has a place, but again depending on the show type ther eshould be a good spread on the type of models be they jet, i.c., electric or scale, fun fly, aerobatic, kit, artf, or scratch built, and this is where organiser have to plan carefully for their target show visitors. Not necessarily having too much of the same thing. Variety is the spice of life and after a while too much of the same thing be it lots of jet models, or groups of Panics, funfighters, or kitchen sinks blasting around can also be detrimental. Some fun activities are always good to and sometimes fun activities such as balloon bursting, limbo or other light hearted fun competitions, can be fun for spectators and pilots alike and be entertaining. But as other posts have stated, most pilots build and own their models and often out of their own pocket are funding (albeit they have free entry) their flying, and if they lose their enjoyment you end up with fewer willing pilots.

At the end of the day shows need to be entertaining. Flying, trading, demonstrations, fun activities (and some other distractions not necessarily flying specific), food and drink, chance to meet old friends and catch up, and not forgetting toilets, and favourable weather gods all equal a successful show. I like the idea of the train along the flightline at North Weald - a great idea.

[Tim Flyer]

Wow David your Chipmunk on page 2 of this thread looks great . Thanks for information. I’m mine turns out half as nice I will be happy. I will start a build log when I start it 😊

[Jon H]

Posted by Lima Hotel Foxtrot on 02/07/2019 13:16:56:

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 01/07/2019 16:19:23:

So what you see fly is what you can buy at the stalls behind you. As i have mentioned before (this same discussion last year) there is a problem here as people wont pay money to watch an acrowot fly. For a start it would be small at the safe distances we have to fly at and then if you wanted to see an acrowot you would just go to the local field and there will probably be one or something similar there. Its a balance and they are working on it.

Maybe not an Acrowot singular, but I'd pay good money to see 50 or 100 in the air at once! You could have a competition to see who actually lands after the carnage!

And who will finance said carnage? Its a great idea but you again rely on the pilots to supply and pay for their own models. Even a foamy acrowot is 100 odd quid and i wouldnt want to be throwing that away. Remember that each slot runs twice a day, so that could cost you £400 in foamies alone if you were unlucky.

[Gavin Chester]

Posted by martin collins 1 on 01/07/2019 16:46:01:

Constructive comment re the bring and buy, the kits on offer were all just laid flat on the ground and at a distance that no one could see what was there. They really want a standing on their side so you can see the box and the second row wants putting on trestle tables so you can see them over the first row. Not difficult i would have thought?

As someone who was working on the Bring and Buy I entirely agree. However there are a few problems with that idea.

First we never get enough tables/ benches as it is, we ask for a set number, and when we arrived for setup Friday found we had less than half the number of tables that we had asked for. The W&W Organisers were on the ball and found some more but we still were a little less than we wanted.

Another issue is the wind and the conditions that kits may arrive in. Often boxes have been opened, contents examined and then re-packed, sometimes the kits may have been left somewhere that not quite cool and dry, and as a result the repacked model or the box may not be as "square" and sharp as when it was new. Sometimes we cant get them to stand up, This is also often seen in way we can display stuff in the marquee too

Add to that the same wind pilots had issues with and boxes get blow over, we have tried to display them better in the past, but putting boxes on table could be a risk that they may be blown and fall off and that means possible risk to the contents or the box, and thats something we try and avoid.

Many kit makers often use "generic" plain boxes for kits with the description/ jmage on A4 type labels, rather than full colour boxes that you may get with a larger scale manufacturer, so yes its hard to see whats on them, I'm not sure how we can remedy that.

However your right, and its nice to get feedback, and I'll pass it back to see what we can do next year.

[Gavin Chester]

Posted by Jon - Laser Engines on 01/07/2019 16:19:23:

The bring and buy is always full of optimists. Ebay and BMFA are often the same way, we all want top dollar when selling and to pay pennies when buying

Again, speaking as someone on the B&B, it never ceases to surprise us that people ask for. The pricing varies from silly cheap to wildly optimistic. But remember we don't set the prices,and often the optimistic seller will take a look at what other similar model/gear/stuff is priced at in the B&B and come back to make a reduction if they don't want to go home with the model.

[cymaz]

At Redruth Show ( small public event) , there is the Magnum Fun Fighter slot. Great entertainment for the crowd. However, like me, getting them to travel over 250 miles for a show is a major cost and undertaking.

 

I would have loved to fly my other two planes on Sunday but the risk with that wind was unthinkable. I’m sorry if the crowd saw a Wot4 go up again... but at least something was in the air.

Edited By cymaz on 02/07/2019 18:06:37

[martin collins 1]

I agree re prices Gavin, i bought a model from the B&B, the guy had his number on it so i called him, negotiated a price then gave the phone to one of your guys who was told the agreed price, i was happy, the vendor was happy and presumably so were you guys. Every seller has to leave a number on their sheet so maybe that could be used to sell more stuff, obviously some check needs to be in place to avoid phoning a mate to do a scam but i think a lot more stuff would get shifted rather than taken home............Martin