Latest CAA Update

[kevin b]

So, let me get this right.

Anybody with an "A" certificate is ok as long as they pay the fee. Through the BMFA is easiest.

Anybody without an "A" certificate has to pass an online test every 3 years until they get their "A" certificate, but can still pay through the BMFA (subject to new rules next year).

Anybody who fails the online test cannot fly, except on a buddy lead at BMFA registered clubs, but doesn't have to pay the fee.

Unfortunately I have to have this in plain English to pass on to some of our club members.

I will double check this with the BMFA.

Edited By kevin b on 21/10/2019 22:29:37

[MattyB]

Posted by Steve J on 21/10/2019 20:21:06:

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 21/10/2019 19:51:32:

I'm not quite sure what to make of the yearly fee when IIRC Mr Shapps asked them to look at reducing it below £5 was it?

I have seen it reported elsewhere that Mr Shapps told the CAA to get the fee below £10. I personally was hoping for £5.

Steve

So in short the DfT have pulled that classic manoeuvre beloved of governments worldwide... Offer something extreme, get the us all outraged then water it down to what they intended all along whilst the public accept it as a “success” even though significant rights have been given up. Yes it could have been worse, but this remains a pretty average deal that does not even comply with the recommendations of their own select committee.

I don’t disagree that the BMFA have done as well as they could with what was essentially a busted flush, but mostly we are lucky Mr Shapps came along when he did or it could have been much worse. Now we wait to see if a CAA exemption will be forthcoming to the min distances and uninvolved person rules in category A3, otherwise this success becomes completely academic given ~95% of our sites won’t comply as it stands

[cymaz]

It could have been a lot worse. £9 I can live with that. Bmfa as the police, fine. They know more about this than any faceless Whitehall Minion.

Free online test every 3 years.....hardly an onerous task.

No minimum age for pilot....won’t deter young upcoming talent

At least Mr Shapps seems to have got the message and the lobbying. He had to be seen to do something with pressure from airlines and airports.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Brian Stevenson 1]

Posted by Dickw on 21/10/2019 21:34:28:

Posted by Brian Stevenson 1 on 21/10/2019 20:50:34:

So:

BMFA members don't have to register until end January 2020. Good. So if I renew membership on 1st January, as usual, they presumably won't take the fee as I won't have passed the test by then so can't register at that time. What happens when I do take the test?

I notice that the free 'pilot' registration has vanished. .....................................

Edited By Brian Stevenson 1 on 21/10/2019 20:54:11

The free pilot registration has not vanished, it is still there if you don't hold an acceptable alternative such as a BMFA 'A' cert: -

"Anyone flying a drone or unmanned aircraft (including model aircraft) weighing between 250g and 20kg will need to take and pass an online education package. This is free and renewable every three years."

This seems to be completely separate from the £9 registration as an operator which can be either direct with the CAA system or via the BMFA or other 'approved Association' :-

"With permission, the associations will collect the registration fee from members directly……"

"The associations will issue further detailed guidance to their members in due course."

Note the "with permission".

Dick

 

 

The test is free, the registration isn't. And there is NO mention of the previously mentioned free 'Pilot'  registration any longer, only 'Operators' are mentioned. .

The 3 year renewal is an extra cost. I hold full size pilots licence (since 1976) and a driving licence since around 1962). The pilot one NEVER has to be renewed unless you let it lapse by not flying a minimum number of hours every year. Driving licence is only at 70 years old, renewal is free, and there is no test.

So this toy plane one is tougher on both repeating renewal and repeating fee than real planes and cars/motorcycles. Which is dopey.

Edited By Brian Stevenson 1 on 21/10/2019 22:44:22

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I have to pay BMFA every year, never made a claim and it used to be £5, I have to pay club fees every year and I don't fly very often, no refunds, I get a year older every year, but it's better than the alternative (most days, depends on the thread). I used to go music festivals, can't afford it now and couldn't handle it anyway, penny arrows used to be a penny.

[Brian Stevenson 1]

Posted by Steve J on 21/10/2019 22:48:06:

Posted by cymaz on 21/10/2019 22:31:05:

At least Mr Shapps seems to have got the message and the lobbying.

Grant Shapps was an ally who wants to reform the CAA long before he became SoS. That is why it is such a stroke of luck that he became SoS.

Steve

Individually these fees are quite low. But when you consider all the routine stuff you have to pay for it all adds up.

BMFA?: I'm in it because I think it does some good, and I suppose because there is some shared 'common companionable interest' in it. Even though I have zero interest in "I can fly my toy plane better than you can fly your toy plane" competitions so don't use that function. And as a 'country' member I don't even get a vote on anything despite paying the same subscription as everyone else. And the only two letters/emails I ever sent them weren't answered.

But I don't actually NEED the insurance as my house insurance covers model flying for ALL occupants of the house. As do many policies.

And then there is the 'A' test. Despite the BMFA insisting that it is merely 'personal achievement' and was never intended as any kind of licence, many 'Adolf' style clubs insist on it and so does the CAA if you want to avoid the test. (Though why you should want to avoid the CAA test for anything other than 'freedom' opinions is not clear to me.)

So I don't think I shall renew my BMFA membership, despite being in it since long before it changed its 'trading' name from SMAE to BMFA. There are times when one has to make a personal stand on this stuff, even though that stand will go unnoticed.

And re the 'height' concession I can't tell the difference between 400 feet and a 1000 feet when looking straight up and neither can the local plod, who don't even know the size of the object they are looking at until it lands.

[Jason-I]

Bruce has given the new regs the once over:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQPIK2s-Fxo

 

Edited By Jason-I on 22/10/2019 08:26:04

[J D 8]

Agree, the document has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

[GONZO]

IMO this is the classic "suck them in then slap on the extras" preceded by the other classic "outrageous demands followed by conceding, in the face of outrage, to near what you actually want". The fee; bound to go up as its only yearly and is well below that which is required to cover costs of scheme. The test; a pointless 'cant fail' for now or the BMFA 'A' until 30th June 2020(?), then what - a precedent has been set of an exam pass before flying and its easy to make more difficult and charge. There is another exam previously detailed due to come in on this date that has a fee and is to be taken at test centers. Its easy to tighten the noose and strangle model flying to death in the future.

I don't want to get political but have you noticed how our basis of law has changed over the decades since we've been in the EU. It used to be, in this country, that unless the law stated you could not do some thing then you were free to act. Now we seem to have gone to the continental way of unless there is a law saying you can do something you cant act.

[Ron Gray]

Posted by GONZO on 22/10/2019 09:09:

I don't want to get political but have you noticed how our basis of law has changed over the decades since we've been in the EU. It used to be, in this country, that unless the law stated you could not do some thing then you were free to act. Now we seem to have gone to the continental way of unless there is a law saying you can do something you cant act.

Nothing to do with the EU, it’s the way of the world!

[GONZO]

Ron, never used to be in this country. But was the way on the continent.

[Cuban8]

Ron, we are where we are but interestingly, this new 'deal' that's been agreed for us has many resonances with another 'deal' being squabbled over in another place.

[GONZO]

I've been a member of the BMFA and the SMAE before since the mid 70's. I got my 'A' in early 1980. But, if there is no opt out for paying the registration fee I shall leave the BMFA. This will probably mean I'll leave the club as its affiliated. which means I'll leave the hobby as a flying participant and just make and fit out planes that I have and run up my engines at home.

Edited By GONZO on 22/10/2019 09:48:12

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Cuban8]

Gonzo, you and I appear to be modellers of a similar sort of age if you were flying in the 70s. A lifetime dedicated to a great hobby is far too set in stone to be thrown away because of the whim of beaurocrats. None of us like any of this because of the reasons that we've aired time and time again, we've been caught up in the 'drone panic' net and for the time being we're stuck fast. Administratively, it might take some of the hassle away from BMFA members but the fact remains that as a group of people we need to work towards over-turning our participation in the drone registration scheme. Just ignoring it, not paying or simply giving up, might have attractions as a quick fix to satisfy one's anger, but long term, we've got to push back against injustice. I don't agree with Bruce Simpson's don't pay the tax argument and ditch the BMFA,  but the rest of his disection of the document seems pretty much on the ball.

We're a relatively small group posting on here, and disparaging remarks about being 'keyboard warriors' and that nobody reads or even logs on to the forum - so we're wasting our time aren't nice. In actual fact, we represent the tip of a large and mostly unseen iceberg........the rank and file club members who share our concerns but just go with the flow until the stuff hits the fan. The 'concessions' to the original drone reg scheme that will apply to BMFA members are minimal but welcome, however it still remains a rotten law as it applies to us, we're not happy and we need to communicate that fact to the BMFA. This forum is read by the top BMFA chaps, it's the only route that ordinary members have to vent their views, given how the BMFA is structured, and I appreciate when officers of our association take time to reply. Come on Manny, time you registered and answered a few polite but direct questions?

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 22/10/2019 10:37:38

[Alan Gorham_]

Andy Symons (Club Support) and Keith Lomax (Treasurer) of the BMFA are both on this forum and have answered direct questions in the past.

[Cuban8]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 22/10/2019 10:35:47:

Andy Symons (Club Support) and Keith Lomax (Treasurer) of the BMFA are both on this forum and have answered direct questions in the past.

Yes, and very welcome their input is.

[Jason-I]

I hope the BMFA are reading this thread. I don't see this 'deal' as a compromise, but rather as more of a sell out.

As previously stated, I have no problem with registering, or paying a fee. What I do have problems with are:

1) The imbalance between the measures imposed on our historically safe sport as compared to other more dangerous activities - for example driving (£14 for 10 years) and full size aviation where licence does not expire. Why have we been singled out for annual registration?

2) The injustice of the whole 'operator' nature of the scheme, which will see us lone fliers all paying an individual registration fee, whereas companies with potentially thousands of drones and pilots will only have to pay a single operator fee. Us private flyers are going to be subsidising big companies so they can clear us out of their valuable airspace.

3) The registration scheme will not serve its intended purpose (as confirmed by their own select committee). We are paying for a useless scheme just so that ministers can say they have acted - and everybody knows it.

4) They have ignored the advice of their own select committee with regards to price being a barrier and with frequency of registration.

The cheek they have to call us clueless, careless and criminal, when it is they who are clueless about the benefit of the registration scheme, criminal in extorting the 'tax' off innocent individuals and careless about our concerns.

[Dickw]

Posted by Brian Stevenson 1 on 22/10/2019 10:59:13:

You are right that the BMFA is the only significant 'voice' we have. Be nice if they paid attention to individual members, as individuals, not as members of clubs. But they don't even let us have an 'individual' vote and 'country' members don't get a vote on anything.

'................................."

All members get to vote in elections for who runs the BMFA - one man one vote, and has been for several years.

Individual members including country members get to vote for Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer, etc., etc., in the annual elections. Unfortunately there have been no elections this year because no one put them themselves forward for election to these offices - not surprising really considering the flack they get for making an effort on our behalf.

Dick

[Jason-I]

The BMFA should be urging us all to continue campaigning the DfT, the CAA and our local MP's about this issue (on a weekly basis)

If they all continued receiving tens of thousands of emails in their inboxes every week, then I'm sure they would eventually cave in.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Lot of noise again I see, t'was the E.U wot dummit, you are only the tip of the Iceberg and are speaking for the masses, Nanny Williamson, oh dear oh dear.

When are you going to put something forward, get yourselves upfront and lead the fight ? We've seen nothing other than digs at other people.

Rebels without the claws ?

[SIMON CRAGG]

For what its worth I think the BMFA have done the very best they can in the circumstances. They have kept us in the loop all the time. Manny and Andy, are very approachable and helpful, and do their very best to keep us all happy. I have been flying for 40+ years and am at present secretary of an excellent, well run club. We get a HUGE amount of pleasure from not only the flying part, but building, indoor, meetings, club activities and of course the FUN factor up the field. Do I worry about having to pay an extra £9.00 for all of the above +? Have a guess!. Safe flying and blue skies!.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Jason-I on 22/10/2019 11:35:59:

The BMFA should be urging us all to continue campaigning the DfT, the CAA and our local MP's about this issue (on a weekly basis)

If they all continued receiving tens of thousands of emails in their inboxes every week, then I'm sure they would eventually cave in.

If the BMFA calls for members to get active, I'm sure some will, in the meantime I would think it best not to do anything, that might damage where we are at present, patience is often a virtue.