The big question, WHEN

[Geoff Copping]

I should emphasise, although I do have a park, and indeed a football field in easy walk, where I have permission to fly then I'm still playing the game and only going out for a walk or shopping.

It is frustrating because the weather has been perfect for DLG and I'm sure that it wouldn't cause much of a risk to throw my Strike 3 as I walked round the park. If I'm doing that then someone may call the police, that takes the police away from what they should be doing.

Also, my wife has an inherited Kidney disease and so is working from home and I would hate to bring the lurgy home to her.

I'm a fly angler and a fieldsportsman too so I'm stymied. I've just got a flight simulator and I'll satisfy myself with that for now. I'll see how I get on with practicing B certificate manoevres and see if I can do that when the portcullis is raised.

[Nigel R]

John

"Strategy being to control exposure ? Behind providing kit for frontline workers, care homes ? Scandal that will consume years and millions of £s. Crisis down graded to remove legal obligation to provide PPE ? Herd immunity until the media turned on them."

I feel somewhat compelled to defend my statement a bit:

3 years back, pandemic exercise (google for Exercise Cygnus) - conducted by experts, probably the same ones advising now on C19 - highlighted mass shortage of PPE and ventilators amongst other things, did government listen, no, no stockpiling performed, why not?

Whilst Chinese outbreak ongoing and it was clear it was not contained, expert advice from all angles was track and trace, quarantine anyone as needed. Government failed, head in sand, nothing doing, nada squat.

Past track and trace, next advice, lockdown and distancing, slow the transmission, reduce exposure. Government late to the party on that one too. "Please wash your hands" give me a break.

Just saying, probably not the experts in epidemiology getting it wrong here. Government and media, leave that up to you to decide how well they're doing. Me, I'm less than impressed.

But we are where we are. Finally the government listened to the experts, and all the strategy now - lockdown, distancing, forced closures - all designed to reduce human interaction and thus exposure to virus. Yes lots of workers exposed. Care homes are a disaster, a complete farce, lots of risk, lots dying, nothing being done, all attention on the NHS, Captain Tom's £32mil, brilliant, but maybe we need to look at the other problem areas too. Government again, are they doing enough, probably not. We saw the care home disaster happening in other countries first and still let it play out here. Not impressed.

[GrumpyGnome]

Call me naive, but aren't the very well paid NHS trust chief execs etc. at least partly responsible for lack of ppe? I thought the government set the budget but these execs decided how to spend it. Similarly those owning/running care homes......

Sorry - don't normally comment on anything political but these sure are not normal times.

On the modelling side, I retired a few days ago and the plan was to make heavy use of the beautiful flying field that is within walking distance. Instead I am building, fixing, flying micro fpv quads in the house and a blade heli in the garden. So, managing a little 'fix'!

GG

[Geoff Copping]

Posted by GrumpyGnome on 01/05/2020 13:45:19:

Call me naive, but aren't the very well paid NHS trust chief execs etc. at least partly responsible for lack of ppe? I thought the government set the budget but these execs decided how to spend it. Similarly those owning/running care homes......

Sorry - don't normally comment on anything political but these sure are not normal times.

On the modelling side, I retired a few days ago and the plan was to make heavy use of the beautiful flying field that is within walking distance. Instead I am building, fixing, flying micro fpv quads in the house and a blade heli in the garden. So, managing a little 'fix'!

GG

In 2018 the government created Supply Chain Coordination Ltd which was in charge of procuring NHS supplies, warehousing and lorries for delivery. Supposedly a 'centralised' buying system would save £2.4bn over five years. It was argued that too many trusts buying their own equipment was innefficient. SCCL failed to gear up with PPE and was far too slow to catch up.

So much for the great idea of an internal market and splitting the NHS into loads of smaller trusts. Imagine the buying power of a unified NHS?

Purely my opinion but the chickens are all coming home to roost from a shambles that has been created over the past four or so decades.

I've tried to keep politics off this thread too but some things can only be explained through the facts.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Nigel R on 01/05/2020 10:51:26:

John

"Strategy being to control exposure ? Behind providing kit for frontline workers, care homes ? Scandal that will consume years and millions of £s. Crisis down graded to remove legal obligation to provide PPE ? Herd immunity until the media turned on them."

I feel somewhat compelled to defend my statement a bit:

3 years back, pandemic exercise (google for Exercise Cygnus) - conducted by experts, probably the same ones advising now on C19 - highlighted mass shortage of PPE and ventilators amongst other things, did government listen, no, no stockpiling performed, why not?

Whilst Chinese outbreak ongoing and it was clear it was not contained, expert advice from all angles was track and trace, quarantine anyone as needed. Government failed, head in sand, nothing doing, nada squat.

Past track and trace, next advice, lockdown and distancing, slow the transmission, reduce exposure. Government late to the party on that one too. "Please wash your hands" give me a break.

Just saying, probably not the experts in epidemiology getting it wrong here. Government and media, leave that up to you to decide how well they're doing. Me, I'm less than impressed.

But we are where we are. Finally the government listened to the experts, and all the strategy now - lockdown, distancing, forced closures - all designed to reduce human interaction and thus exposure to virus. Yes lots of workers exposed. Care homes are a disaster, a complete farce, lots of risk, lots dying, nothing being done, all attention on the NHS, Captain Tom's £32mil, brilliant, but maybe we need to look at the other problem areas too. Government again, are they doing enough, probably not. We saw the care home disaster happening in other countries first and still let it play out here. Not impressed.

Not having a pop at you Nigel, sorry if it reads that way, for the record I'm less than impressed myself, and I don't buy the led by Science bit, the media has dragged them kicking and screaming to where we are for me.

My youngest Sister works in a care home, shocking stories to tell there. Mind how you go.

Flying I'm ready, don't know how long before Council will do the grass, because they ain't working here, so will be back of the Queue.

[Nigel R]

Never thought you were John we're all good. Just thought i had maybe not made myself clear to begin with.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Nigel R on 01/05/2020 20:58:51:

Never thought you were John we're all good. Just thought i had maybe not made myself clear to begin with.

[Gary Manuel]

Just been for my usual afternoon walk with the dog.

While I was out, a young lad started flying a R/C flying wing from the top of our local ex-pit tip. Within minutes he had a crowd of about a dozen youngsters around him. Many more people on the streets and in the park than recent weeks. There were even some kids playing tennis in the street.

Looks like people are making their own mind up about ending the lockdown.

Confirms my theory about the 2 main factors affecting the spread of the virus:

1. How dense the population is.

2. How dense the population is.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Ice cream van on streets today, would you like a Flake in that ?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Michael Barclay]

Posted by Steve J on 03/05/2020 10:26:41:

Posted by tigerman on 29/04/2020 09:36:03:

Right or wrong the Government surly will have to easy the lock down soon

The problem is that, for a variety of reasons going back decades, the UK NHS's and public health bodies were not prepared for a pandemic, so when the government saw the Imperial study and what was happening in Italy they panicked, closed schools, detained large numbers of people without due process and caused enormous amounts of damage to the economy. They are now faced with the problem of lifting the lockdown in a way that doesn't allow the opposition to claim that they are allowing tens of thousands of people to die and without admitting that they overreacted at the end of March.

I don't believe the goverment panicked,they acted according to best advice available.Opposition parties are trying to politicise this but people are not stupid and I think the majority are behind the government. I don't see the opposition parties coming up with any better solutions but no doubt they will have all the answers if and when this is over with.

Unfortunately many people needed these strict lockdown measures including some in my own club who caused the shutdown of flying at the field by not observing social distancing. As usual many suffer for the actions of a minority.

[Michael Ramsay-Fraser]

If anyone is under any false assumptions about how inept the government has been in this matter please read about Exercise Cygnus carried out in 2016. This exercise revealed how under prepared the NHS would be in the event of a pandemic. Ventilators, PPE shortages and NHS overwhelmed within days was the outcome. Recommendations were made. Did the government take action? Watch the death figures rise and guess the answer.

Government doing their best? Don't make me laugh.

[Michael Barclay]

Posted by Michael Ramsay-Fraser on 03/05/2020 10:45:56:

If anyone is under any false assumptions about how inept the government has been in this matter please read about Exercise Cygnus carried out in 2016. This exercise revealed how under prepared the NHS would be in the event of a pandemic. Ventilators, PPE shortages and NHS overwhelmed within days was the outcome. Recommendations were made. Did the government take action? Watch the death figures rise and guess the answer.

Government doing their best? Don't make me laugh.

Can you name one government that was prepared for this?

[Bob Cotsford]

Any government that had had the temerity to suggest investing in PPE to sit idle on the off chance of a pandemic would have been in for considerable critisism for squandering tax income. I'm so glad we have members with such confidence in their ability to have handled things better and to have avoided so many deaths. Pity they never ran for public office themselves.

Isn't it time this thread was shut down or heavily pruned again, it's most definitely strayed well and truly into the territory of politics and gone so far as to claim homesteader rights!

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Michael Barclay on 03/05/2020 10:51:15:

Posted by Michael Ramsay-Fraser on 03/05/2020 10:45:56:

If anyone is under any false assumptions about how inept the government has been in this matter please read about Exercise Cygnus carried out in 2016. This exercise revealed how under prepared the NHS would be in the event of a pandemic. Ventilators, PPE shortages and NHS overwhelmed within days was the outcome. Recommendations were made. Did the government take action? Watch the death figures rise and guess the answer.

Government doing their best? Don't make me laugh.

Can you name one government that was prepared for this?

Lots of givernments in Asia were very well prepared for this and their death tolls confirm that. They acted quickly, had PPE to spare throughout the population and put social distancing into operation immediately that the threat became apparent. So they have far fewer deaths than the 300+ per million population that the UK is suffering. Pre-lockdown, by at least two weeks, the widely publicised data and projections indicated that a delay of even one day would cause many more deaths from the virus. That was not acted on - sporting events and mass gatherings continued, it was stated that as these were outdoor events they didn't carry a huge risk.

The UK was slow to react and ill prepared WRT PPE availability to the health service. The only reason that our government is not recommending masks for the general public who are out and about is to prevent further strain on the PPE shortage for the health service and care homes.

In the context of this thread it is completely unrealistic to expect to be able to get back to normal in a matter of weeks and to be flying again any time soon. Yes it's frustrating, but looking at it pragmatically, hundreds of fields were closed for several months during the foot and mouth outbreak and we routinely have had long spells when bad weather has severely curtailed flying.

In model flying we are somewhat fortunate in that it is a multi-faceted hobby, so productive time can be spent in the workshop, even if we can;t get out flying at the moment. If you're a fisherman, footballer or mountaineer and you are locked down there's far fewer outlets, short of trying to hook a goildfish in the toilet bowl, abseiling down from the landing, or practicing keepy-uppies in the garden. Stay positive and make the most of what we have, in the way of workshop time. This too shall pass.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Michael Ramsay-Fraser]

What's the better alternative? 30,000 + deaths and rising? The simple fact is, as pointed out above, other governments around the world have been better prepared in terms of PPE and ventilators (along with support services) than we have. The fact that the recommendations of Exercise Cygnus weren't adopted was down to the austerity cuts introduced by the Conservative government.

[David Davis]

The Germans seem to have done better. They have a bigger population too.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Hmm, why run an exercise if you then ignore the findings, we spend billions defending the realm, regardless of our politics PPE is essential kit. And the cost is peanuts in the grand scheme of things.

Is anyone seriously saying when this is over, we will not have this kit on standby ? Will that be considered wasting money ? I'll raise your "political point scoring" and see you a, defending the indefensible. We messed up.

How much do we spend on NATO exercises etc, is that wasted tax payers money ? And I see we're bringing the large events up again ? Largest event was those who could NOT work from home, ALL my family among them, why are yous focusing on the Red Herring ? Some moved to a safe place. Millions could not, WHY ?

The Opposition ? Well they've been pretty supportive, the flak has come from the media, and rightly so.

We can count ourselves lucky our "Key Workers" are up to the task that confronted them, we really would be in a mess if it were otherwise.

WHEN ? It'll be survival of the fittest financially, once the threat for some goes, the safety net will shrink. I want out.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Steve J on 03/05/2020 11:18:04:

Posted by Michael Ramsay-Fraser on 03/05/2020 10:45:56:

Ventilators, PPE shortages and NHS overwhelmed within days was the outcome. Recommendations were made. Did the government take action? Watch the death figures rise and guess the answer.

The question is how much do you spend preparing for a 50 year event? Do you have mothballed wings in hospitals? Do you pay over market rates to keep PPE production in the UK? If you spend a few billion a year on pandemic preparation, how does this impact deaths from other causes?

I think the issue is that we had a few weeks warning over other countries and didn't start preparations when we could have. But how much has the current pandemic cost? Is one of the reasons Germany has fared better than UK due to the fact they spend a higher proportion of their GDP on health care compared to the UK?

[Paul C.]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 03/05/2020 11:08:10:

Any government that had had the temerity to suggest investing in PPE to sit idle on the off chance of a pandemic would have been in for considerable critisism for squandering tax income. I'm so glad we have members with such confidence in their ability to have handled things better and to have avoided so many deaths. Pity they never ran for public office themselves.

Isn't it time this thread was shut down or heavily pruned again, it's most definitely strayed well and truly into the territory of politics and gone so far as to claim homesteader rights!

Well said Bob, and it is time to close this thread 👍.

Paul.

[leccyflyer]

The thread is dealing with very real issues which affect model flying..The desire to constantly close down threads simply because some people don;t want to read them should be resisted.I don;t know about anyone else but if I make an on topic post on a thread discussing a serious issue I don;t want that thread shut down because someone else makes an off topic post. The thread should continue to discuss the topic at hand, which is when we can expect to get back to model flying again.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

4 family members out working, as yet 1 has had a test, same with co workers, close the thread by all means, let's not look eh.