Warbirds Replicas P51 Mustang

[RICHARD WILLS]

If you are really going to give it a go Ron , I'm sure I can help you out , The centre section appears to be constant , so a handful of root ribs will be the first obvious requirement .

I know my kit cutter Phil , did an F82 for the big 73" Galaxy Mustang so he will have encountered all of the same problems.

[Nigel Dell]

I first became interested in the F82 on my first visit to the CAF shows in Texas in 1984, they had the F82 flying then, the day before the first air show day they were testing it and is was acting like an MDS powered model🤭😳😂

My first sight of it in the air was at 50’ off the runway coughing and spluttering and landing again, on talking to the ground crew it had not long come out of a major rebuild and they were having issues! Not powered by RR Merlin derived engines but dedicated Allison engines of opposite rotations, they traced the problem to fuel pressurisation. And it flew well on the next attempt, it is probably one of the most impressive things I have seen fly as it is big and in all black, menacing.

I have been looking at doing one for years but never quite got around to it, if I recall the fuselage’s are longer than standard P-51D and I am digging out my drawings to check on that.

That would be my choice to do along with the P-51B made into the A-36 Apache, no need for a 4 blade prop as it had a 3 blade.

Nice to see WR back on the trail.

I will try and dig out my photos of that time, I have flying shots of it but also photos of various examples that were/are in air parks we visited at that time, don’t see one ever, then 4-5 come along!

 

Edited By Nigel Dell on 27/06/2020 10:26:23

[Gary Clark 1]

Thanks for the update Richard. I am half way through a P-47 just now so I'm in no rush, just look forward to having it.

Gary

[Ron Gray]

Well I think I should have a go at it, trouble is that means increasing my order, oh well, in for a penny. Fuse will also need a bit of stretching as they used the 51H for the basis of the 82.

[Jonathan S]

Richard,

Thanks for the update on progress sounds like your doing a great job doing the thinking and hard work for us any idea on the eta?

Getting very excited.

Jon

[Ron Gray]

@Nigel - the fuse was longer as the basis was the 51H. Interesting that when they first test flew it they couldn't get it off the deck, they then realised that they had the contra rotating props going the wrong way and in doing so killed the lift from the centre wing section!

blast, had just about talked myself out of an 82, now it's back on the agenda. Thanks Richard!

Edited By Ron Gray on 27/06/2020 14:05:48

[Nigel Dell]

Hi Ron

Yes I knew about the H, I am in model mode at the moment so have dug out my drawings as I can’t remember where I got to with it, it turns out it is too big for me now, for some reason I designed it around 2x Super Tigre G4500’s and around 140”, not sure what I was thinking! 🤭😳🙄🤪😂

[RICHARD WILLS]

The wing wont be a problem , but the changes to the fuselage dont seem to be documented clearly anywhere . All it says is , that the fuselage is an extra 6ft long , but where ? seems an awful lot .

Nige , Im sure you've got a decent drawing of this somewhere ?

[Nigel Dell]

Hi Rich

Yeah, somewhere! Have been having a clearout over the last month or so and nowhere near finished yet to give you an idea on how much stuff I am going through! If it was not for Ron’s posting I would have been fine!😳🤪😂

I was happy thinking of the Apache! I have photos of the 82 against the 51 as the engineers explained to me how the extension was achieved but this was 36 years ago!

I am sure if I recall the lower Fuz line was continued and the high line was brought down through where the tailplane was on the 51, a line that can be seen in the photos but this is undocumented unless you have very good drawings as you say, I am not sure where mine came from so I need to find them.

P.S. The lower fuz line follows the natural  line is what I was trying to say but my drawing is incomplete and just sketched so I was obviously not sure. 

 

Edited By Nigel Dell on 27/06/2020 16:32:19

[Ron Gray]

This is a great photo of the 51 and 82 side by side and you can clearly see the 57” plug they put in behind the cockpit.

Edited By Ron Gray on 27/06/2020 16:35:24

[Nigel Dell]

That’s helped me understand my 36 year old scribbling, in a note book I have a very rough sketch of the Fuz with 57” marked on it, must go with the photos I have.

I have got find everything now!

[Jonathan S]

Well I think I have decided on the P51 of Queen Jean part of the 374th Fighter Squadron.

Couple of things drove this decision:

1. Its a P51B with Malcolm Hood which I like the best
2. It has a bright yellow nose to aid ID in the air
3. It has invasion stripes - to aid ID
4. Not too much bare metal which I know from plastic models is the hardest to paint
5. It looks cool and is not very common.

So from Richards comments I will be on the look out for a 4 blade yellow spinner!!

well now to get as my pics as I can...

[Peter Jenkins]

I've been using M J Hardy's book "The North American Mustang" for my Top Flite Mustang build and he covers the Twin Mustang. He observes that the P82 was the only twin-fuselage version of a single engined wartime Allied military aircraft to go into production in any numbers. The first XP-82-NA was Packard Merlin powered with "handed" airscrews rotating inwards. He does not say whether this resulted in the aircraft not taking off.

Hardy states that the fuselage of the P51H had " an extra section 4ft 9in long inserted aft of the radiator fairing and ahead of the tailplane".

Hardy notes the outer wings were modified to remove the guns and undercarriage. The main u/c was now repositioned to the wing root pivoting on the main spar and retracting into the centre section.

Interestingly, options for use in the fighter bomber or ground attack, even an interceptor, role the starboard cockpit could be removed and replaced by a metal fairing both reducing weight and drag. The interceptor would have had internal fuel and no external stores.

Other interesting points were that the twin retracting tail wheels were cable operated from the main wheels, these now being directly in front. The Allison was only installed in the 3rd XP-82 and did not have contra rotating props. As both the USAAF and North American preferred the Merlin this prototype, XP-82A was never completed. The first production version P-82B-NA reverted to the Merlin and 500 were ordered. It was not until the P-82E was ordered that the Allison replaced the Merlin. It was the first time that it had appeared in a production Mustang since the P-51-A and A-36A. It was now "wearing" handed Aeroproducts 4 blade props which also now incorporated feathering.

In the Korean war they were in action from the beginning because of their range. They were credited with a Yak 9, Yak 11 and La-7.

The now F82 was superseded by jets and was out of service at the end of 1953.

A good P82 to model might be the 9th P82B which was flown from Hawaii to New York non stop in 14 hours 31 minutes 50 secs. It was named Betty Jo after the pilot's wife, Lt Col Robert E Thacker. The other pilot was Lt J M Ard. The guns and armour were removed and extra fuel tanks were fitted behind the pilots' seats which, with 4 x 310 gals, gave a total fuel load of 2,215 US gals and a gross weight of 30,000 lb.

[Peter Jenkins]

In case folks are wondering about Mustang colour schemes, don't forget the original specifier and customer was the RAF. Rolls Royce was instrumental in getting a Merlin into a Mustang as the Allison's performance dropped off markedly above 20,000 ft. The trial was a success and paved the way for an outstanding fighter. The USAAF only started being interested when the Merlin Mustang was born. The first USAAF Mustangs appeared in mid '44 and needed to come up to speed on the most advanced air combat in the world at that time. The 3 RAF Eagle Squadrons transferred as complete units to the USAAF and formed up the first Fighter Wing. Pilots like Blakeslee and Gentile were experienced fighter pilots from the Eagle Squadrons - all trained by the RAF.

In fact, the RAF flew the first long range fighter escort for B17 raids until the USAAF fighters were up to speed and took over in Sep 44.

So, spare a thought for an RAF scheme for the B!

[Ron Gray]

Thanks for the info Peter, my ‘B’ will be in RAF colours, with a Malcolm hood.

[leccyflyer]

Mine will be a Mustang III in RAF colours, with the Malcolm hood.

[Ron Gray]

With all of this interest in Richard's kits I think it would be rather nice if, once they are all built (or even part built), have a get together sometime next year (this year being a write off!) at Buckminster. And I mean not just the P51s but any of the Warbird Replicas kits, in other words a Warbird Replicas Fly In. I would really like to see how others have built theirs plus the finishings that they have applied and how they've done it. Heck we could even ask teh man himself to come along, I'm sure the 'lads' would like a weekend out!

Edited By Ron Gray on 28/06/2020 07:00:57

[Nigel Dell]

Posted by Peter Jenkins on 27/06/2020 22:48:45:

I've been using M J Hardy's book "The North American Mustang" for my Top Flite Mustang build and he covers the Twin Mustang. He observes that the P82 was the only twin-fuselage version of a single engined wartime Allied military aircraft to go into production in any numbers. The first XP-82-NA was Packard Merlin powered with "handed" airscrews rotating inwards. He does not say whether this resulted in the aircraft not taking off.

Hardy states that the fuselage of the P51H had " an extra section 4ft 9in long inserted aft of the radiator fairing and ahead of the tailplane".

Hardy notes the outer wings were modified to remove the guns and undercarriage. The main u/c was now repositioned to the wing root pivoting on the main spar and retracting into the centre section.

Interestingly, options for use in the fighter bomber or ground attack, even an interceptor, role the starboard cockpit could be removed and replaced by a metal fairing both reducing weight and drag. The interceptor would have had internal fuel and no external stores.

Other interesting points were that the twin retracting tail wheels were cable operated from the main wheels, these now being directly in front. The Allison was only installed in the 3rd XP-82 and did not have contra rotating props. As both the USAAF and North American preferred the Merlin this prototype, XP-82A was never completed. The first production version P-82B-NA reverted to the Merlin and 500 were ordered. It was not until the P-82E was ordered that the Allison replaced the Merlin. It was the first time that it had appeared in a production Mustang since the P-51-A and A-36A. It was now "wearing" handed Aeroproducts 4 blade props which also now incorporated feathering.

In the Korean war they were in action from the beginning because of their range. They were credited with a Yak 9, Yak 11 and La-7.

The now F82 was superseded by jets and was out of service at the end of 1953.

A good P82 to model might be the 9th P82B which was flown from Hawaii to New York non stop in 14 hours 31 minutes 50 secs. It was named Betty Jo after the pilot's wife, Lt Col Robert E Thacker. The other pilot was Lt J M Ard. The guns and armour were removed and extra fuel tanks were fitted behind the pilots' seats which, with 4 x 310 gals, gave a total fuel load of 2,215 US gals and a gross weight of 30,000 lb.

Thanks for that info Peter, it now makes my scribbling a little more understandable! The point is the ‘H’ Fuz as Ron has said, I think I will get that book👍🏻

It is slowly coming back so once I have everything in front of me it may well get a grey cell working.

Talking of Lt. Col. Thacker, I had the great pleasure of meeting him at a Mesa Jet meet in AZ back in around 2007 or so, in his 90’s and flying a F15 Model very well! I had intended to do the F82 as Betty Jo which is the last time I enthused about the project but life got in the way again, hearing the story from the horses mouth as it were was inspiring, the friends I was with started the conversation as the evening before we had a conversation on what was the best project you never got round to doing! Sadly it still is!🙄🤭😂

P.S. Sorry it may have been 2008 in Mesa when Lt.Col. Thacker was 90, I know they said he flies better than most half his age !

Edited By Nigel Dell on 28/06/2020 07:50:06

[Peter Jenkins]

This site, titled North American Mustang in RAF Service has some useful information on which RAF Squadrons operated which Mark of Mustang.

[Paul Johnson 4]

P82

So they have two pilots?

What happens when one breaks right and the other left???

is there a tear along the dotted line?

[Ron Gray]

Not a problem as the dulcet tones of Vera Lynn are playing in the background.

[Peter Jenkins]

Posted by Paul Johnson 4 on 29/06/2020 09:06:46:

P82

So they have two pilots?

What happens when one breaks right and the other left???

is there a tear along the dotted line?

Ha ha! Yes, that would be interesting.

In reality, I doubt they would crew the aircraft with two pilots of equal experience as that would be a waste of resources. The 2nd pilot would probably be relatively inexperienced and take control during the long transit to the battle area. He could also act as the wing man who never gets lost during combat. It would be a great way to transfer air combat skills. If you had a Bader in one cockpit and a Tuck in the other then that might be a very different situation. Mind you even when flying a single seater Bader was difficult to stay with as he could pull more G than a pilot with legs. The later P51Ds had early g suits that helped their pilots pull more G and stay conscious. The P82 would have had the same setup.

Don't forget that the P51s had around a 10 hour trip when escorting the longest range bomber raids. The main problem was boredom until the combat region was reached and the aircraft had to be hand flown as there was no autopilot. The pilot also needed to navigate so that if he lost contact with the main formation he knew where he was and could either rejoin or return to base.

The P82 was created to give even longer range and longer sortie time so two pilots plus an autopilot came into the design. I'm sure both pilots would have known that the designated aircraft captain would have been the handling pilot for combat. As in single seat fighterssho ever saw the enemy first would call the break unless the leader also had contact. It can't have been a comfortable ride for the non handling pilot though unless he was following through lightly on the controls to know when to brace for the turns and g.

As for who gets awarded the kill, one would hope that it would be given to the handling pilot whether the aircraft commander or not. St least you could stencil the kills on one of two cockpit although I don't think that was a problem for the P82 crews in Korea.

[Nigel Dell]

You have to look at the original design spec for the F82 to see why two pilots, designed to be an escort fighter for the B29’s so a range of 2000+ miles and shared workload.

The various versions that came later with the ‘pod’ , the unofficial photo recon etc. some required just one crew member which could allow for the second cockpit to be faired over to reduce drag but I have never understood how that was a good thing in this configuration although I guess it could be trimmed out.

The best thing that always made me laugh was the early Models with the RR/Packard Merlins were relegated to trainers for the later Allison 1710 equipped E’s etc, making the trainer capable of a higher ceiling of operation and faster to boot!

Because it was quickly superseded by the Jet age they were tried in various different roles and were masters in none, not the fault of the aircraft or crews, but there is always odd example that stands out if you research enough and they were documented but these are fairly thin on the ground, Betty Jo was an example that stands out as a record breaking airframe but everything military was taken out (armament and amour plate) and extra internal fuel tanks fitted plus the 4 external drop tanks but when it came to dropping them only one wanted to leave giving more problems making the whole flight success even more credit.

[Ron Gray]

Now did they have gun sights in both cockpits and full instruments in both?????? just thinking ahead to the 3D printing I'm going to have to do - it will help you Peter as you want them for your P51 too!

Edited By Ron Gray on 29/06/2020 13:52:52

[Nigel Dell]

Both cockpits were fully functioning, as per it’s original design spec.