Is the hobby dying/dead

[Nigel R]

Posted by Michael Kulagin on 25/06/2020 14:37:54:

Returning to the hobby after a 10 year layoff I was amazed at the 'red tape' thats involved these days in joining a club. Waiting lists, proposer, seconder, size limits etc. I'm sure that many clubs have taken the BMFA example and imposed it as RULES. I for one am tempted to move to gliders, no clubs to join, no rules apply to Beacon Hill. Just go fly and enjoy yourself, after all that's what we all want but some seem to have lost sight of.

I'm not sure any of "Waiting lists, proposer, seconder, size limits" constitute red tape, more just practical aspects of running a club that uses a patch of someone else's land.

Yes, many clubs take the example constitution and make it rules. They don't have to, but all of it is there for good reason. You are free to not join one of these clubs.

After all, you don't have to join a club to fly power. All you need is an appropriate location and the landowners permission to use it... which is, funnily enough, what most clubs primarily exist to achieve.

[gangster]

Surely the whole rule/ constitution/ A certified business is all part and parcel of the whole change we are lamenting in this thread. We would all love to wind the clock back 30 or 40 years.

Sadly we live in a much worse world which revolves round a blame/ compensation culture which is risk averse everything is someone else’s fault On top of this flying sites get harder to find as building encroaches and these houses are occupied by less tolerant people which we as a nation are becoming

organisations like the BMFA and club officer need to cover their backs This results in more and more rules and risk assessment covering risks so slight. Darwin was wrong nobody is stupid someone else must be to blame

This could be the final nail in this and other hobbies. Clubs will cease to exist as the “old farts “ who run them retire and no-one will be prepared to step up to the plate

[Malcolm Fisher]

I don't have an achievement scheme rating even though I have been flying R/C models since the 1970s. In the early stages of the scheme I was asked if i would be an examiner for gliders as slope soaring was my favourite activity. I declined because I knew that my family commitments and occupation would mean that I would be unable to devote sufficient time to do it anything like well.

I also was concerned that eventually the scheme would develop into being a licence to fly and it would appear that this has largely come about in some areas. Even the BMFA demands an "A" to fly at the new HQ site.

I can, however, see the need for it where it is the only way to keep a flying site as detailed in an earlier post.

Malcolm

[Bruce Collinson]

Agree with Gangster entirely re sites, which are very hard to find and very easy to lose. Who in their right mind would sit back whilst one of the 5% who populate most parts of society ruins it for the safe, sensible majority?

On the other hand, I think the prognosis re old flatulences is slightly gloomy. NLMC has an average age of say 60-odd BUT there is a hard core of 40, 50 yr olds and some younger entry too, lots of people like me still continuing to make the wheels of commerce rotate (and yes we do gravitate to ARTF and, heaven forbid, foamies, as there aren't enough hours in the day) and some of whom will step up to the plate whenever circumstances require them to do so.

Dead? Not if this afternoon was anything to go by. LMS never been busier. Bulk order for Laser 7.5% being assembled. 72 yr old shinning over a barbed wire fence to retrieve an Osama full of former Wot 4. Ace fun.

BTC

[Robin Colbourne]

For clubs to survive, its vital that a club represents all its members. A limit on the number of years that someone can be on the committee, and having committee members from those still under training and all disciplines flown, help to keep things fresh. Its very easy for cliques to form, particularly if separate sites are required for gliders and power, and these are often the death knell for a club.

A club Facebook group page is a good way for peopel to stay in touch and for newcomers to learn the names and faces of the other members.

A friend in an amateur radio club told me how they had what amounted to a coup to depose the club chairman who would not accept any change from the newer/younger members. The club was in danger of having the bulk of the membership leave and setup afresh. By the sounds of it the club chairman had a progressive mental illness and would not listen to anyone else's point of view on just about anything.

[Clarence Ragland]

If it were possible to earn solo wings much quicker, do you think that more people would get into the hobby of RC aeromodelling? For example, within a couple of days, 2 hours per day, more or less?

[Brian Cooper]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 14:57:00:

If it were possible to earn solo wings much quicker, do you think that more people would get into the hobby of RC aeromodelling? For example, within a couple of days, 2 hours per day, more or less?

The speed at which people go solo is entirely dependent on the rate at which they learn. . To give two examples, the quickest chap I ever taught went solo within 5 minutes. . The slowest was a chap who was still on a buddy-box after nine years..... He was never going to get it.

[Denis Watkins]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 14:57:00:

If it were possible to earn solo wings much quicker, do you think that more people would get into the hobby of RC aeromodelling? For example, within a couple of days, 2 hours per day, more or less?

It is known that people learn in different ways

Some, perhaps one of two in a club, never quite " get it ". They muddle on for years, having some good days, but mostly bad.

A few too, " get it " right away, and fly solo after a few hours, but these are rare.

Most novices, in my experience, need about 10 hours, 50 - 60 x 3 - 5 minute flights, to get somewhere close to " flying"with

10 hours on a Flight Sim, would aid progress too, at least going one way or the other, in the air, choosing the correct stick input.

Brian, beat me to it and shares my view

Edited By Denis Watkins on 22/01/2021 15:27:07

[Peter Jones 21]

The kids I teach to fly seem to pick it up in handful of flights, some even test fly their own models as a first radio control flight.

Happens all the time in my club. Retention is the big challenge with youngsters.

[MattyB]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 14:57:00:

If it were possible to earn solo wings much quicker, do you think that more people would get into the hobby of RC aeromodelling? For example, within a couple of days, 2 hours per day, more or less?

No, because as I pointed out in your other thread it is not the difficulty of learning to fly that is the determining factor on participation in the hobby. There are a myriad of reasons why traditional LOS aeromodelling has been in decline for a number of years - reduction in peoples spare time, child protection legislation that puts clubs off instructing youngsters, increased legislation, loss of flying sites, ageing demographics etc. By far the biggest factor though is competition from other (predominantly digital) activities that did not existing in aeromodelling's heyday, and that are seen as more exciting/entertaining and less difficult to get into. You may not like it, but it's the truth.

The world changes, and that change can't be reversed solely by standing next to people operating the RH stick!

Edited By MattyB on 22/01/2021 16:06:50

[Clarence Ragland]

Perception is reality. I've been doing this for over 45 years and from personal experience, I have a much different experience than you. You have your mind made up, so there is nothing that I could to change your mind.

I've trained over 400 people over the years (don't expect you to believe that) and most earned their solo wings within less than a few days, many within a 3-4 hours. BTW, all students fly for 30 minutes per flight lesson, which is why they are able to learn so quickly. That is why my method works so much better than the buddy-box.

I used a buddy-box for training many years ago, so I know the difference.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I would say no also.

Not been my experience that the learning has put people off, plenty other factors which have been mentioned play a part.

Learning stage for me was best part, all new and exciting, same with teaching someone, mostly it's an enjoyable experience and you build relationships as well as flying abilities, social side of the hobby is a big plus to me.

[Matt Carlton]

Is it dead? No

Is it dying? No

Is it changing? Yes

In some ways the hobby is more vibrant and thriving than ever. The sheer range of models which are available at a price and ease that would be inconceivable only 20 years ago is staggering.

Want a ready built, semi scale model, complete with fully fitted radio, motor, retracts and everything? No problem. Was that even a pipe dream in 1980? Nope.

However, if you want to build that scale model from a kit or a plan, or even scratch build? Want to go to the model shop and pick out your own balsa, ply, bits and bobs, talk to the guy in the shop, test fit servos in a half complete model? Want a good choice of covering and finishing, the pleasure of perusing shelves full of goodies? That's more of a problem. Was that the norm in 1980? You betcha.

That said, the advent of CNC cutting, 3D printing and suchlike have made some cottage industry kit makers more viable than they may have been before. Short kits and wood packs are widespread. Choice of motors, batteries and radio gear is wider and more affordable than it ever has been.

Yes, recruitment is a problem. But we have been listening to the same 'where are all the newcomers" for decades. I was reading an article about that very subject in a 1990 issue of Radio Modeller just the other day.

The biggest issue going forward is and will be the availability and affordability of flying sites.

[MattyB]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 22/01/2021 17:02:40:

Is it dead? No

Is it dying? No

Is it changing? Yes

In some ways the hobby is more vibrant and thriving than ever. The sheer range of models which are available at a price and ease that would be inconceivable only 20 years ago is staggering.

Want a ready built, semi scale model, complete with fully fitted radio, motor, retracts and everything? No problem. Was that even a pipe dream in 1980? Nope.

However, if you want to build that scale model from a kit or a plan, or even scratch build? Want to go to the model shop and pick out your own balsa, ply, bits and bobs, talk to the guy in the shop, test fit servos in a half complete model? Want a good choice of covering and finishing, the pleasure of perusing shelves full of goodies? That's more of a problem. Was that the norm in 1980? You betcha.

That said, the advent of CNC cutting, 3D printing and suchlike have made some cottage industry kit makers more viable than they may have been before. Short kits and wood packs are widespread. Choice of motors, batteries and radio gear is wider and more affordable than it ever has been.

Yes, recruitment is a problem. But we have been listening to the same 'where are all the newcomers" for decades. I was reading an article about that very subject in a 1990 issue of Radio Modeller just the other day.

The biggest issue going forward is and will be the availability and affordability of flying sites.

Completely agree. The only thing I would add is the reduced number of people prepared to maintain club sites and sit on club committees. That is getting harder and harder as the demographic ages, and the increasing regulatory burden is not helping either.

[MattyB]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:26:44:

I've trained over 400 people over the years (don't expect you to believe that) and most earned their solo wings within less than a few days, many within a 3-4 hours. BTW, all students fly for 30 minutes per flight lesson, which is why they are able to learn so quickly. That is why my method works so much better than the buddy-box.

I used a buddy-box for training many years ago, so I know the difference.

I do believe you about training 400 people, what I don't understand is how this technique will single handedly "save the hobby". On that you have given precisely zero information despite the exhortations on your website.

[Clarence Ragland]

Posted by MattyB on 22/01/2021 17:17:44:

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:26:44:

I've trained over 400 people over the years (don't expect you to believe that) and most earned their solo wings within less than a few days, many within a 3-4 hours. BTW, all students fly for 30 minutes per flight lesson, which is why they are able to learn so quickly. That is why my method works so much better than the buddy-box.

I used a buddy-box for training many years ago, so I know the difference.

I do believe you about training 400 people, what I don't understand is how this technique will single handedly "save the hobby". On that you have given precisely zero information despite the exhortations on your website.

You will have to think out of the box. Imagine every club able to literally instantly train to solo status within a couple of hours. Every hobby shop and member of the industry had an employee able to do the same.

Simulator kiosk in every hobby shop with employees able to give customers a test flight on the sim and the hobby shop had their own flying field strictly for their business. It has to start somewhere, I'm just trying to get the ball rolling.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I've long been of the opinion that the fact that model flying takes some time and practice to achieve a basic level of competence and that most of us who've been flying for a while realise that the learning curve only tails off but never peaks (at least until it crosses with old age and infirmity) means that once hooked, model flyers are more likely to engage with the hobby long term.

I think the same may apply to those building models - the instant gratification of buying ARTFs may wear off for many and those investing time as well as money may well become more committed.

[Matt Carlton]

Learning to fly does not end with solo status. I have seen plenty of people who are "capable" of flying a couple of circuits and a sort of landing and who never progress beyond that point and eventually pack it in because they feel that they can't progress.

Being able to fly solo does not equate to competence.

[Geoff S]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 17:25:46:

Posted by MattyB on 22/01/2021 17:17:44:

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:26:44:

I've trained over 400 people over the years (don't expect you to believe that) and most earned their solo wings within less than a few days, many within a 3-4 hours. BTW, all students fly for 30 minutes per flight lesson, which is why they are able to learn so quickly. That is why my method works so much better than the buddy-box.

I used a buddy-box for training many years ago, so I know the difference.

I do believe you about training 400 people, what I don't understand is how this technique will single handedly "save the hobby". On that you have given precisely zero information despite the exhortations on your website.

You will have to think out of the box. Imagine every club able to literally instantly train to solo status within a couple of hours. Every hobby shop and member of the industry had an employee able to do the same.

Simulator kiosk in every hobby shop with employees able to give customers a test flight on the sim and the hobby shop had their own flying field strictly for their business. It has to start somewhere, I'm just trying to get the ball rolling.

The main problem with that, is, that in the UK, there are very few model shops and they're getting fewer. When I took up the hobby after retirement there were numerous shops within a bike ride away now there are none.

I learned with a buddy box both with the trainer I built (though that was mostly grab the transmitter ) or with an instructor's trainer who charged a modest fee. That had the advatage that I got a bike ride going to the airfield because I didn't need to take anything with me. Both models were 4 channel and I don't see any advantage to flying rudder/elevator/throttle models either - 4 channel models of the right type seem quite stable enough.

I find it difficult to believe there's a magic fromula that would have speeded up my learning when the main difficulty is orientation - particularly with the model coming towards you. I still find it amazing that I never even think about it niow - and I'm not nor ever will be a hot-shot model pilot but I can and do test fly my own models.

Geoff

[Clarence Ragland]

Posted by Geoff S on 22/01/2021 20:23:28:

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 17:25:46:

Posted by MattyB on 22/01/2021 17:17:44:

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 16:26:44:

I've trained over 400 people over the years (don't expect you to believe that) and most earned their solo wings within less than a few days, many within a 3-4 hours. BTW, all students fly for 30 minutes per flight lesson, which is why they are able to learn so quickly. That is why my method works so much better than the buddy-box.

I used a buddy-box for training many years ago, so I know the difference.

I do believe you about training 400 people, what I don't understand is how this technique will single handedly "save the hobby". On that you have given precisely zero information despite the exhortations on your website.

 

You will have to think out of the box. Imagine every club able to literally instantly train to solo status within a couple of hours. Every hobby shop and member of the industry had an employee able to do the same.

Simulator kiosk in every hobby shop with employees able to give customers a test flight on the sim and the hobby shop had their own flying field strictly for their business. It has to start somewhere, I'm just trying to get the ball rolling.

 

The main problem with that, is, that in the UK, there are very few model shops and they're getting fewer. When I took up the hobby after retirement there were numerous shops within a bike ride away now there are none.

I learned with a buddy box both with the trainer I built (though that was mostly grab the transmitter ) or with an instructor's trainer who charged a modest fee. That had the advatage that I got a bike ride going to the airfield because I didn't need to take anything with me. Both models were 4 channel and I don't see any advantage to flying rudder/elevator/throttle models either - 4 channel models of the right type seem quite stable enough.

I find it difficult to believe there's a magic fromula that would have speeded up my learning when the main difficulty is orientation - particularly with the model coming towards you. I still find it amazing that I never even think about it niow - and I'm not nor ever will be a hot-shot model pilot but I can and do test fly my own models.

Geoff

 

How I teach orientation is I bank the plane over a few degrees up and out. I tell my student to see the top of the wing in either direction. You will see whatever color the wing is and any light will reflect off the top of the wing. The correct bank angle will be to see the top 1/4 or less of the wing. If you see anymore of the wing, then it's banked over too steep. I don't even mention control reversal when facing the plane coming at you.

From the get-go, my instructions is a constant simply left, center, right center. After a few minutes, there is no control reversal problems, they automatically move the aileron/elevator control lever in the right direction.

I realize that it sounds strange, but it works almost every time with all students. The only people I might have a problem with, are those who had previous instruction with someone else. When facing the plane to push the control lever towards the low wing. Or, turn in the same direction the plane is going. Sometimes, the student had different instructors telling them to do it one way or the other. Very confusing.

 

 

 

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 21:07:03

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 22/01/2021 21:08:43

[Rich Griff]

A simple classroom science class, completion with A4 sheet of paper in the form of a flying model.

Far far far too complex for any teacher out there to do that !!

Debate........

[Clarence Ragland]

I worked with several local schools in training teachers how to fly RC airplanes and then teach RC flying to their students. One school in Newfane, NY had kids building Gentle Lady gliders. I would go once or twice a week to help him teach his students to fly. Another teacher in Backer, NY, bought a dozen LT-40 kits, engines and radios from me when I had my hobby shop. I would go during first period class and give a dozen students flight instruction. They were flying on a full scale runway. At one time, that school had a full scale program.

Soon afterwards, a couple of his students became flight instructors. That was many years ago and I'm sure this program is still going.

In another high school in Grand Island, NY, I trained two tech teachers how to fly and teach. They practice teaching on their school's 3 RC flight simulators and then went out to their baseball field to teach outdoors. I haven't heard if that program is still going. BTW, they had some much equipment, they could manufacture airplanes if they wanted to. Big bucks there. What they did make was small electric foamies.

I also had the school superintendent and principal fly. They both asked me first.

[kevin b]

Interesting thread Clarence.

However, over here (in the U.K.) you have no chance of getting schools involved in model flying. The paperwork involved would nearly be a full time job itself ! We no longer teach woodwork and metalwork due to the high risk of the "children" hurting themselves using sharp tools. No way would you be allowed to fly a model aeroplane with a whirling blade at the front of it ! This is nothing new either. I left school nearly 50 years ago and the year I left all schools were banned from using laminated wood on woodworking lathes, due to an industrial death caused by a job shattering and killing the operative.

[Clarence Ragland]

Kevin,

Sorry to hear that. Recently, EAA, Horizon Hobby and others are getting heavily involved in getting youth involved. They are stressing that aeromodelling is a step in getting kids into full scale flying.

AMA has youth programs for schools, I don't know about what kind of paperwork or the legal aspect.

[Clarence Ragland]

Posted by Clarence Ragland on 23/01/2021 14:39:20:

Kevin,

Sorry to hear that. Recently, EAA, Horizon Hobby and others are getting heavily involved in getting youth involved. They are stressing that aeromodelling is a step in getting kids into full scale flying.

Then there is the JROTC cadets and Civil Air Patrol youth, AMA is working with.

http://www.amaflightschool.org/programs/MASC

 

AMA has youth programs for schools, I don't know about what kind of paperwork or the legal aspect.

 

 

Edited By Clarence Ragland on 23/01/2021 14:43:50