Sellers beware!

[SIMON CRAGG]

Buyer turned up for second model last night at 9pm, so a bit happier today!.

[Matt Carlton]

Are they not in breach of the law by being in possession of a model which they have not paid for? Surely that is tantamount to theft? Therefore a police issue?

Sadly, I think that 'buyer collects' is the only safe way to go. A buyer can still use PayPal if they want, or can pay a small holding deposit ahead of a cash payment on the doorstep.

That avoids issues of damage claims etc, which can also get a bit acrimonious. I sold a model once, which apparently arrived in a damaged state. Courier stated that they were not responsible, the buyer wanted a full refund. In the end, I suggested that I would drive up to collect the model in person and refund the money. Not surprisingly, this was refused.

It's a shame, because we're buying and selling all round the country, but for a bigger purchase like a complete model, a courier isn't THAT much cheaper than the petrol cost.

The more difficult things are small but expensive items like Receivers. Cheap to post and very easy for a buyer to claim that it doesn't work, or an unscrupulous seller to sell a duff Rx and claim 'It worked when I tested it".

However. The most effective thing possibly would be a "Bad Trader Alert" sub forum, where these things can be highlighted. It might not help the initial fraud, but if the rogue is "named and shamed" then they're going to struggle to repeat it.

Cheers

[Nigel R]

"Out of interest how can you protect yourself from this type of fraud."

Play it safe, basically. I've sold quite a lot of stuff with no issues to date. Perhaps I have been lucky. Predominantly I sell through Ebay. Yes, they have charges, I'm not fussed, as you can get decent prices for most things due to the large audience it provides.

I have always use Ebay's own linked postal services - that provides proof of post and delivery and are ebay/paypal friendly. If you go via paypal for a private sale, you need to add in the courier information manually.

Never ever ever use paypal friends as a seller. I know some on here do I and I am quite happy to go along if I am a buyer and the seller wants to go that route, but I would not do so as a seller. Factor in the tax they charge for that 'for goods or services' and put it in your price. Accept it as a useful insurance against most issues.

There are a few loopholes left - there will never be 'zero loopholes'. Paypal/ebay are generally good if you can stump up some proof in your favour though. I have had to lean on customer service a few times through the ebay 'case' system and it has worked in my favour each time.

Don't sell breakables.

Don't sell large stuff.

Don't sell to anyone who feels awkward or fishy in some way.

[Adrian Smith 1]

I had a classic 2-3 weeks ago.

A chap in Cambridgeshire, who bought a small Extreme Flight motor from me over three months ago in June I think, sent me a message via eBay a couple of weeks ago claiming non-receipt of said motor. Fortunately, I keep all my Royal Mail signed for receipts printed off the RM website and the reference number that matched the number on the PayPal payment advice. I at least had the proof to hand it was received and suggested he had another look for the motor (I helpfully scanned the RM receipt to him). Apart from the fact this query was way over the eBay deadline for such things, I told him if he had a problem I would give all the info to eBay to sort out.

He came back to me and said that it was probably in an unopened pile of parcels from way back when he had and would revert if need be. Well needless to say nothing ever came back so it was hard not to come to the conclusion the guy was trying it on.

 

 

Edited By Adrian Smith 1 on 05/10/2020 15:29:18

[Ron Gray]

Be aware that eBay rules have been changing over the last year and now are heavily on favour of the buyer, so much so that, as a seller you can no longer leave negative feedback for a buyer! At the start of lockdown I bought a Betamax VCR so that I could transfer lots of home vids onto the computer. I then resold it on eBay to a 'lady' in the South West. It was in full working condition but after a few days she claimed that it was faulty (she actually said that she couldn't get it to work). I got the unit back from her and found that there wasn't a fault with it. Despite this eBay refunded her money and got it back from me. It left me out of pocket as they wouldn't refund the advertising costs and I had to pay for postage too. I fully believe that she got the VCRT, used it to do the same as me, converted her vids, then claimed it was faulty. I hope that I never meet that so called lady.

Edited By Ron Gray on 05/10/2020 16:19:22

[SIMON CRAGG]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 05/10/2020 10:44:26:

Are they not in breach of the law by being in possession of a model which they have not paid for? Surely that is tantamount to theft? Therefore a police issue?

Sadly, I think that 'buyer collects' is the only safe way to go. A buyer can still use PayPal if they want, or can pay a small holding deposit ahead of a cash payment on the doorstep.

That avoids issues of damage claims etc, which can also get a bit acrimonious. I sold a model once, which apparently arrived in a damaged state. Courier stated that they were not responsible, the buyer wanted a full refund. In the end, I suggested that I would drive up to collect the model in person and refund the money. Not surprisingly, this was refused.

It's a shame, because we're buying and selling all round the country, but for a bigger purchase like a complete model, a courier isn't THAT much cheaper than the petrol cost.

The more difficult things are small but expensive items like Receivers. Cheap to post and very easy for a buyer to claim that it doesn't work, or an unscrupulous seller to sell a duff Rx and claim 'It worked when I tested it".

However. The most effective thing possibly would be a "Bad Trader Alert" sub forum, where these things can be highlighted. It might not help the initial fraud, but if the rogue is "named and shamed" then they're going to struggle to repeat it.

Cheers

It will be interesting to see if / when I get a response from Action Fraud. As far as I am concerned, I have been conned out of an excellent model and engine (sold at a giveaway price), through no fault of my own apart from possibly being to trusting. I just cannot understand how these people sleep at night.

[Matt Carlton]

 

I don't understand it either, it gnaws away at me if I get something I haven't paid for by accident or too much change, let alone go out and play with a model I haven't paid for.

Sadly, like you, it spoils the whole thing for all the honest people out there.

Maybe I'm just an old stick in the mud, but I was brought up believing that honesty and integrity are two of the most important qualities.

Let's hope that AF respond, in my opinion, it's theft. Either he should pay up, or return the model to you at his expense. Simple.

**edited for language infringement**

Edited By David Ashby - Moderator on 06/10/2020 09:11:14

[i12fly]

On the other hand, not everyone is dishonest.....

I sold a modelling item on ebay for about £10 and sent it in the post. About a 2 weeks later the buyer told me that he had not received it. I'd no proof and he did have good feedback so I gave him his money back including the postage. About a week later I got I letter with a cheque for the full amount from him saying the package had arrived, jiffybag ripped but all there. A pleasant experience and good feedback from (and to) the buyer.

[Paul Marsh]

I sold a old rc boat on ebay a while back. Posted ok, then got an email a month later saying it never arrived. I refunded the money, it wasn't much, around £15, and left it that.

A month after that, the boat was "return to sender" back to me,unopened and looks like it got lost, maybe tried to post it (as it was a flat in Manchester) and when that failed, went into the depot and got lost.

I contacted the original buyer whom, I refunded the money to, and told him I got the boat and he said, he still wanted it, and was passing my area. This Chinese chap, picked it it up and was delighted to eventually obtain it, and shows, he wasn't conning me, in fact was ok about it, and showed that it was neither of our faults. He paid in cash the original price and that was it.

 

Edited By Paul Marsh on 05/10/2020 18:08:27

[kc]

If Simon gave details of the model here it might just result in the crook getting caught when he tries to sell it on or turns up at a flying field. Catching the crooks and getting them prosecuted is essential for society.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Some years ago, I bought an engine from the BMFA classified, paid for it and asked the sender to post it to my work as my wife worked too and I didn't want to mess about collecting it from the main Post Office.

I waited a few days - nothing...

Confirmed despatch with the seller.

Waited a few more days - nothing...

Confirmed delivery address with the seller.

Waited quite a few more days - still nothing...

Contacted the seller who seemed very genuine and assured me that he'd sent it.

Happened to be in a different part of the building a few days later using a photocopier and noticed a nicely wrapped parcel at the Post Point for that office and yes, it had my name on it - and the correct address and Post Point details.

Contacted the seller and said thanks - and sorry for worrying him.

[Matt Carlton]

"The personal morals of the crystal clear present are no different from the personal morals of the rose tinted past"

Would you assert that modern society has exactly the same morals and ethics as every time period which precedes it?

We used to be taught that lying and dishonesty are wrong. What I see around me now is that the only crime is getting caught.

We can agree to disagree however. It's not personal.

[PatMc]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 05/10/2020 22:43:48:

We used to be taught that lying and dishonesty are wrong. What I see around me now is that the only crime is getting caught.

We can agree to disagree however. It's not personal.

It depends on who was/is teaching - then & now. And of course whether the listener adheres/adhered to the message.
It is actually personal & always has been.

BTW the only criminals are/were the ones who get/got caught.

[Peter Miller]

I am sorry to say that there are definitely a lot more dishonest people out there now...or possibly in this day and age there is far more scope to be dishonest .

I can say that just once or twice I have dealt with people who were exceptionally honest and that is a rare and heartwarming experience.

[Keith Simmons]

Martin Lewis has warned customers about PayPal as there’s no protection that comes with making purchases through the service. To be honest, I am not sure if it’s for buyers or sellers? Just all users.

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Folks, another reminder that using *** or other characters to hide bad language isn't permitted and will result in the poster receiving a formal warning as part of the site's COC. Two warnings have been issued already on this thread. Please don't post if you're unable to control yourself 

 

Edited By David Ashby - Moderator on 06/10/2020 09:19:01

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[SIMON CRAGG]

Update.

Action Fraud are now reviewing my case, and asked if I needed counselling, which was very good of them.

I asked Parcel Force for help, (keeping in mind that I did not arrange the courier), and they very kindly confirmed the parcel number, the date it was delivered, and who to.

So feeling a bit more positive.

[Nigel R]

Good to hear that Simon.

Let's keep politics out of the thread gents, it'll get messy if we don't.

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Peter Miller on 06/10/2020 08:35:30:

I am sorry to say that there are definitely a lot more dishonest people out there now...or possibly in this day and age there is far more scope to be dishonest .

Is that really true, though, or is media and communication better now, which means that we tend to hear about a much higher proportion of the dishonest acts?

Society is based on the vast vast majority of people being honest. I don't think it would even be worth getting out of bed in the morning if that wasn't the case...

There's a selection effect, right? No-one ever starts a thread on here stating: "I posted an item and the chap received it and paid me and there were no problems and we all lived happily ever after"... but yet the vast majority of transactions - thousands every day - are trouble free and with honest people...

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[The Wright Stuff]

Posted by Doc Marten on 06/10/2020 11:30:58:

It's when things happen that shouldn't that they are posted and highlighted, those type of posts are on the increase.

But that's my point - increase in the posts does NOT necessarily imply an increase in the proportion of dishonest people.

• It could be because there are more transactions in total.
• It could be because people are more likely to report it than before.

Of course, it could be because people are less honest, but we can't conclude that from this observation alone!

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Nigel R]

You wish to believe that people are less honest?

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]