Shed question 2022

[Chris Walby]

Hi all,

 

Having a massive clear out and rearrangement which will displace me from the garage and into the shed to build models. At least I get a couple of windows and the machine tools stay in the garage where historically it does not get damp.

 

Shed: Wood (overlapping horizontal softwood boards) with 45mm vertical uprights. Its about 3 m by 6 m although cycle and garden tools take up space and so the big questions are:

• Do you need to vapour seal or install some water resistant membrane to stop the insulation getting damp
• What's the best/cost effective insulation to fill the 45mm gap and is that enough to make it cosy?
• What's the best/cheapest internal cladding? 
• Insulate the roof, what with and clad it with?
• Shed has 240V power and I'll upgrade the lighting and power as the job proceeds

 

 

Heating:

Planning on a diesel (boat/truck) type heater (Search Air Diesel Heater Fuel Heater 12v | VEVOR UK) and will read through the extensive thread on the subject, but as an update what's people's views on them?

 

What's suggested regarding size and manufacturer? 5kW or 8kW

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Those heaters are dirt cheap, I spent 500€ 30years ago on a second hand coach one on 24v for my Barge,,

 

 I have an Infra red heater in my garage, too dusty for anything else, and paraffin last year over here was 22€ the 20 litres now 39.90€ !

Edited October 19, 2022 by Paul De Tourtoulon

[Shaun Walsh]

Expanded Polyisocyanurate e.g Celotex is a better insulator and more water resistant but rockwool is more fire resistant.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Shaun Walsh

[Shaun Walsh]

Just now, Shaun Walsh said:

Expanded Polyisocyanurate e.g Celotex is a better insulator and more water resistant but rockwoll is more fire resistant.

Celotex also doesn't shed irritating fibres and is rigid so easier to do the roof.

Vapour barrier would be a good idea too.

https://insulation4less.co.uk/products/tyvek-airguard-reflective-vapour-barrier-50m-x-1-5m

[Engine Doctor]

I ve had one of the diesel heaters for about three years now and went for a 8 kW version. Brilliant bit of kit. To be honest I don't see much difference between  the 5 and 8 kW  and in your shed you will probably have to turn it down after 20 min or so. 

It pays to turn up to full heat for 5 mins after its been running on low heat to burn off any soot build up. You will need either a decent battery or 12v power supply as it draws quite a few amps when starting . 

The exhaust can be noisy so an add on muffler is best fitted . Not expensive but beware some are straight through and don't really do any thing. Some gold have made a muffler from a stainless vacuum flask. 

The tank in mine holds about 4 liters and that will last a couple of days at full heat. I can still get red diesel but don't know how long that wil last ? I will try it on some heating oil next time I fill up my cans and see how it runs.

[EvilC57]

My modelling shed roof is insulated with 25mm Polystyrene Insulation Board from B&Q, and covered with Onduline Corrugated Roof Sheets which should last for donkey's years compared with the original felt that was on there.

 

Its also lined inside with Reflective Bubble Insulation Roll. Not particularly efffective as insulation I suspect, but makes the shed brighter inside.

 

I have a wall mounted thermostatically controlled fan heather in there as well.

Edited October 19, 2022 by EvilC57

[Chris Walby]

Thanks guys and all good food for thought. I'll keep emptying the shed until I have enough space to clad it out and place the order for the heater before they run out!

[Engine Doctor]

I forgot to add that the exhaust has to pass through your shed wall .  It  cools quite quickly the further away from the outlet it gets  but it gets very hot near the exit from the unit. Do pack some non-flammable  material where it passes through you shed wall . 

Before I fixed mine In properly I used it with the exhaust running under the garage door . The exhaust was hot enough to melt the seal on the bottom of the door as door dropped without me noticing and it also scorched some flooring where the exhaust exits the heater as that bit get very hot.

Just fired mine up for a pre winter test and all is Cosy and warm 👍

 

[Nigel R]

standard approach is, I thought, to do:

 

walls from outside to in

cladding (shiplap or featheredge or whatever)

1x2 batons

breathable waterproof membrane layer

2x4 uprights / insulation fill

interior clad

 

roof on mine is 25mm eps between the trusses, 25mm OSB over the trusses, then felt roof

 

no problem with temperature or damp

[Rich Griff]

Felt roof, always blowing off in gales, like last night.

 

Invest in either pond liner/damp proof course or better still the Goodyear ( may be Firestone ) rubbery type waterproof layer. Both are UV tolerant.

 

One of those red diesel heater/turbine units is on my "must get" list too. Makes sense particularly these days.

 

You have a damp proof course under the shed ?

 

Tanalised wood treatment is rubbish. Wood rots from inside leaving a hollow but hard outer skin. Even shed sitting on peddle base is not that good rot wise, but locally it rains a lot, Snowdonia.

 

Fantastic light show here last night !

 

My new shed bought many years ago had a 25 year guarantee, yeah right !

 

Will never buy from that local company again.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Rich Griff

[Rich Griff]

Hi guys, after feedback on those diesel turbine heaters as it's tooo dam cold in the shed now, even with thermals...

 

How are yours doing ?

 

Any problems etc. ?

 

I notice Amazon list them for about £150....

[Andy48]

I fitted a diesel heater a couple of weeks ago. Fitted it externally with the warm air blown in at the top of the workshop. Then I invested in some insulated ducting to bring cold air out of the bottom of the workshop and through the heater. I made a sealed box for the heater and did not connect the heater intake directly to the cold air ducting from the workshop, but have the ducting simply entering the sealed box itself. This way it also keeps the box and the 20amp power supply cool. It doesn't have to be completely sealed, as a little fresh air also coming in is no bad thing. Any noise from the exhaust is outside and all I can hear once it settles down is the clicking of the diesel pump. It also solves a number of other problems. No diesel inside the workshop, and no hot exhaust to feed outside. It also has a remote control. I paid just £100 from Amazon.

 

 

 

Just discover you can set the temperature you want, though it is not obvious from the menu.

 

Overall it works a treat.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Andy48

[Engine Doctor]

I have the all in one unit. Just run the exhaust to outside. Only downside is the noisy ticking fuel pump . Fitting it outside would be better but depends where you live I guess. Anything like that would probably grow legs and be gone in short order where  I live.

Mines been running for three years , possibly four with no issuse .  Time passes quickly and it's often longer than you think. I did have one lot of red diesel that didn't seem to  generate the same heat and thought the heater was failing but next batch and its running nice and hot again so duff diesel ?

If you get one Rich you will need either a good car battery or a good 12 v supply . I kept the old battery from my car as its phone for the heater just r-echarge it after a couple of days running.

There are few folk who even use their old engine oil in them mixed with a drop of diesel. They claim to get better heat from them. I'm going to try it on mine later when I've used up some red diesel as it will save me some money and taking it to the tip .

You can adjust the temp and have the heater gently tucking over but do give it a burst of max output before closing down or they will soot up and need stripping to clean .

[Piers Bowlan]

If you use old engine oil with diesel most likely it will soot up in no time and be a very messy job to clean. I would rather pay a few extra pennies and take the old oil to the tip. But that is just me!

[Chris Walby]

I have purchased and carried out a temp install in the shed (16ft x 10ft) and it runs a treat on std diesel. I am with PD on the use of engine oil as having just forked out on it I am not prepared to bugger it up to save a few pennies.

 

I hate to think what is actually in the soup you call engine oil after 10.000 + miles, ok the engine filter will take out the small bits, but larger carbon and metallic debris will sit in the sump and only come out when you drain plug is removed. If the intension is to allow the precision metering pump in the heater to pump that lot through to the combustion chamber, seems like a good way to knacker it to me. Could filter it and anything else to clean it up, but for the amount the heater uses and peace of mind I'll stick with pump diesel. 

 

Rich, there are a few YouTube videos, but watch out as some contradict good installation practice and are even outright dangerous! 

 

Thought about some exhaust heat recovery, but its just not worth it for the amount of time its running for me + the high exhaust temp drives the condensation out anyway. I get about a 10C temp rise in 30 min roughly, but will measure more accurately once the ambient temp drops below zero.

 

One question is now I am remotely monitoring the temp and humidity is what to do about the damp! I was really surprised that the average RH is 90% and max 94%! I don't think balsa is going to like that so if anyone has any ideas let me know. If not I'll buy a small dehumidifier and see if that helps + once the insulation is installed it will for a vapour barrier and should maintain the RH at a reasonable level (RH50%). I'll borrow a calibrated RH instrument logger from work and see how accurate my wifi one is.

 

[Engine Doctor]

Each to their own  re using old oil; however the warning I gave re running them at lower temp still stands. If you run your heater at lower output give it a 10 min blast at full heat before closing down. This is to burn off some soot build up on the wire mesh glowplug cover . 

[Chris Walby]

1 hour ago, Engine Doctor said:

Each to their own  re using old oil; however the warning I gave re running them at lower temp still stands. If you run your heater at lower output give it a 10 min blast at full heat before closing down. This is to burn off some soot build up on the wire mesh glowplug cover . 

Hi, I picked up on that in earlier posts, hence follow that shutdown procedure. My point is that the pump could well be damaged and as its fundamental to the heater operation cause the heater to completely fail until replaced.

[Piers Bowlan]

I bought my diesel heater about three years ago. I didn’t know about running at high power before shutdown and sure enough it sooted up, resulting in a messy strip and clean. 😡 

Incidentally my one came with some soft green plastic fuel piping. Problem is the bore is too large and not suitable for the pump. Bubbles in the fuel line damages the pump eventually as the fuel lubricates it. Eventually my pump failed 😞. I replaced the pump and fitted the smaller diameter hard white fuel pipe kit that is available on eBay. Not expensive and no problems since 😊.

[Rich Griff]

I assume you are running these heaters on red diesel ?

 

If using hot exhaust to pre heat incoming air then yes probably, but to preheat "air for combustion process" I would think no probably.

 

Exhaust gases should not be in shed as they will kill you, and will be "damp".

 

Every gallon of a hydro carbon fuel burnt will produce a gallon of water ?

 

Using hot exhaust gas to power the "peltler" effect ( I think that's what it's called, spelling wrong probably ), two dis similar metals heated to produce electron flow hence electricity, may be an advantage. Don't know for sure, would have to look that one up, it's been a long time ( since I rock and rolled 😁 ) eh !

 

Jam jar filling up but not full yet.

[Andy Stephenson]

Peltier effect devices are very inefficient, you'd get more power from a solar cell moonlit night.

[Engine Doctor]

Rich . These heaters use an electric fan and not the peltier effect for air flow . The exhaust is not used to pre-heat incomming air. The combustion is totally separate from the the heated air . The oil/ fuel is burnt in a cast aluminium combustion chamber and exhaust is taken away via ss exhaust tubing to the outside of your building . The exterior of the  heated combustion chamber is then used as a heat exchanger and heats air that is drawn from your room / Workspace( or you can draw colder fresh air from outside if you prefero) that then passes  over and around the heated fins on the combustion chamber and then into your workspace . No fumes in your workspace . Take a closer look at how they work on YouTube.

Yes they do running on red diesel but do not cause any condensation in heated area as all of the exhaust is expelled to the exterior. They produce the same/similar heat that a 5 or 8 Kw ( depending on model and heat setting) electric fan heater will produce. 

Keep saving in the jam jar.

[Engine Doctor]

3 hours ago, Chris Walby said:

Hi, I picked up on that in earlier posts, hence follow that shutdown procedure. My point is that the pump could well be damaged and as its fundamental to the heater operation cause the heater to completely fail until replaced.

Hi Chris .I doubt that burning used engine oil if filtered would damage pump as it has a far higher lubricity than diesel fuel . The oil I intend to try is low SAPS so shouldn't cause any more ash or carbon than burning diesel fuel.

[Bruce Collinson]

Any tips for sources of power supplies for these without using a 12v battery?

BTC

[Andy48]

2 hours ago, Bruce Collinson said:

Any tips for sources of power supplies for these without using a 12v battery?

BTC

I used this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08GKS26CJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

Might seem a bit overkill for the operating current but it allows for the startup current.

[Andy48]

On 18/11/2022 at 10:20, Engine Doctor said:

Each to their own  re using old oil; however the warning I gave re running them at lower temp still stands. If you run your heater at lower output give it a 10 min blast at full heat before closing down. This is to burn off some soot build up on the wire mesh glowplug cover . 

Mine automatically runs at full blast for a about 10 minutes on startup whatever I set the temperature on.