aidan mcatamney Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 3 hours ago, Trevor said: My advice would be: Take your hands off the sticks and watch the model very carefully. Only return to the sticks when you are absolutely sure which way the model is pointed and what correction is needed. Then apply the correction - gradually! I agree totally with this advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 I'm going with Aidan ........ all his models are still shiny ....... must be an omen. Toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Jenkins Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 6 hours ago, David Davis said: I was flying a trainer with an "advanced beginner" on the buddy box a few weeks ago when he suddenly lost control of the aircraft. I re-took control, steadied the model and handed him back control with the model flying into wind with level wings. He said, "How do you know what to do if the model goes out of control?" I'm not sure I know the answer to that question! Hi David It's all about observation and practice. You should tell him that looking at the aircraft in the air is not the same as observing it and having in your mind what might happen and how you would react. The problem is, that as a beginner, even an advanced one, you are spending a good deal of your brains processing power just keeping up with the aircraft and have little processing power to deal with things that happen where perhaps your reactions are wrong and exacerbate the situation. I remember years ago when I first climbed into an aircraft cockpit being told that as soon as you sit down in an aircraft your IQ goes to zero! You are in an unfamiliar environment and only when you become familiar with it will you then be able to know what to do if the model diverges from the flight path you wish to see. This is also to do with reactions and the older we get the more time it takes to recognise and react to things. If is perfectly normal and the answer to your student's question is "you will recognise when things are beginning to go wrong and correct them without thinking about it after you have had a lot more practice". Flying aerobatics is a well trodden path to understanding how aeroplanes react to control inputs when in unusual positions. That is why most military flying training includes an element of aerobatics and recovery from unusual positions. Recovering from unusual positions is something else you could teach your student. Talk through what you are going to do to the aircraft, what the aircraft's flight path will look like and tell him what recovery actions he must take. A stick model aircraft is useful for this type of explanation. Then get airborne, get two mistakes high and put the aircraft into that unusual position and then say "recover". If he's listened to your pre-flight briefing he will then be able to implement the recovery actions and that will build confidence that he can get out of a situation when he has lost control of the aircraft - note it's not the aircraft that's gone out of control - unless there has been a bit fall off or the electronics have had a hissy fit. Hope that helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 My thumbs are staying on the sticks, recovering is ingrained from the learning stage, and the pushing yourself stage, we got stuff wrong, put wrong uns in and recovered it, if you've to think it's often too late. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leccyflyer Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 33 minutes ago, Peter Jenkins said: Hi David It's all about observation and practice. You should tell him that looking at the aircraft in the air is not the same as observing it and having in your mind what might happen and how you would react. The problem is, that as a beginner, even an advanced one, you are spending a good deal of your brains processing power just keeping up with the aircraft and have little processing power to deal with things that happen where perhaps your reactions are wrong and exacerbate the situation. I remember years ago when I first climbed into an aircraft cockpit being told that as soon as you sit down in an aircraft your IQ goes to zero! You are in an unfamiliar environment and only when you become familiar with it will you then be able to know what to do if the model diverges from the flight path you wish to see. This is also to do with reactions and the older we get the more time it takes to recognise and react to things. If is perfectly normal and the answer to your student's question is "you will recognise when things are beginning to go wrong and correct them without thinking about it after you have had a lot more practice". Flying aerobatics is a well trodden path to understanding how aeroplanes react to control inputs when in unusual positions. That is why most military flying training includes an element of aerobatics and recovery from unusual positions. Recovering from unusual positions is something else you could teach your student. Talk through what you are going to do to the aircraft, what the aircraft's flight path will look like and tell him what recovery actions he must take. A stick model aircraft is useful for this type of explanation. Then get airborne, get two mistakes high and put the aircraft into that unusual position and then say "recover". If he's listened to your pre-flight briefing he will then be able to implement the recovery actions and that will build confidence that he can get out of a situation when he has lost control of the aircraft - note it's not the aircraft that's gone out of control - unless there has been a bit fall off or the electronics have had a hissy fit. Hope that helps. That recovering from an unusual position was definitely a very important art of my early training. My instructor - who was 13 at the time and one of the first to use the buddy box system in the club - would take the model only when absolutely necessary, right it and give it straight back, but he would also put the model in an awkward position, tell me he was going to give it back and then let me sort it out. The buddy box made that very easy to do in practice and I'm very grateful to have had such an excellent instructor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Harris - Moderator Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 14 hours ago, Peter Jenkins said: Actually, it's not "muscle memory" in my humble opinion. It is more your brain thinking ahead of the aeroplane. It is getting your uncoscious memory to take over. When the conscious and unconscios clash is when you get the problem. The conscious should be freed up by the unconscious to assess what your next action unconscious needs to perform. That's how you get ahead of the aeroplane. I was flying in an aerobatic competition today at a new site. Some club members had turned up to watch. None of them would have flown in those wind conditions they said. I was explaining to one what each manoeuvre was and said what would happen before it did. As a result he got it and started to see where things were going wrong for a couple of flights. However, he found the concentration required just to take in what was happening in each manoeuvre was quite tiring. That's what practice is for of course but it's only valuable when you practise the right thing! By the way, Paul's point about touch typing is a case in point. I learned the typewriter keyboard when I was 9 as my Mum wanted to keep me gainfully occupied while she did something else. Many years later, the keyboard and which fingers worked which key was still in my subconscious. Everything would work until the conscious intervened, as it suddenly decided to from time to time and that's when I started making mistakes. It is quite an interesting battle between the conscious and sub-conscious! The conscious/subconscious thing seems very real. My keyboard skills are entirely self taught but I can use one fairly efficiently - until I’m aware that I’m being watched, when I suddenly find that I’m thinking about where keys are! My observations on teaching relatively complex motor skills lead me to believe that it is a mistake to try to learn too much in a session. A further complication in the learning process is that as a student becomes more skilled, they become more aware of small errors which manifest as a perception that they are not progressing - or even going backwards - which is not actually the case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 I must admit that my ‘thumbs off the sticks advice’ is based on the observation that many ‘out of control’ incidents are actually the result of disorientation. Hence the suggestion to stop fighting it and watch carefully for a moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J D 8 Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 A lot is said about " the best colours" to aid orientation but often all you have in the sky is a black [ish] shape. Some aircraft shapes are better and more distinctive, a fat fuzz is good when end on and a polyhedral wing more angles to catch the eye. When I had my first flying wing a Zaggy for the slope it was often difficult to know where it was going after some aero's. I would just chuck in full up elevator and work it out from there and if that did not work, well it was as tough as old boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul devereux Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 (edited) On 02/07/2023 at 22:10, toto said: Hi Paul, I can believe that but I think that would kick in when you reach a kind of saturation point. I've barely started. It's a very good point though which could promote training towards certain achievements prior to taking a short break, revitalising .... then carrying on with a fresh task. Time will tell .... hopefully this weekend coming when I get behind the sticks again. I'm not overly worried. Watch this space .... You'll get there. It is just such joy when you move from just avoiding crashing, to putting the plane in the sky where you want it. This time last year, I was pleased to just get back on the ground in one piece. Now, with a lot of practise, I can choose what manoeuvre I want to fly (more or less!). And to line up for landing. It really is great fun.But IMO, it is just practice, practise, practise- left and right hand circuits, figure of eights- boring, but you are teaching your brain and digits to keep the plane in the sky and doing what you want with it. There are people on this forum who just want to stress how dangerous and boring model flying is, but you might want to look at this:RCGroups.com: The ABCs of Radio Control - Aircraft, Boats, and Cars! Edited July 4, 2023 by paul devereux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyGnome Posted July 4, 2023 Share Posted July 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, paul devereux said: There are people on this forum who just want to stress how dangerous and boring model flying is.. I have to say that in all the years I have used this forum, I've not come across any of these... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 4, 2023 Author Share Posted July 4, 2023 Hi Paul, Thanks for your words of encouragement. It's always good to have folks cheer you on through the initial difficulties in just getting there. As far as the latter comment on the dangerous and boring element of other members comments, cant say I have experienced that here. I'd be surprised if anyone described this hobby as boring or they wouldn't be doing it. It's one of the most exciting hobbies out there ..... and I'm hooked. I only see enthusiasm here. Dangerous ..... it certainly can be but that's why we have adopted certain protocols to try and remove as much of that as possible and retain the right to indulge in what we do .... or in my case ..... try to. It's a very well laid out forum with relatively easy to find resources. We all have different views, opinions and experiences which we freely share and I think, if everyone tries to at least appreciate the views of others, even if we dont necessarily agree with them, then we have a great group. Again, thanks for your response. Toto 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 4, 2023 Author Share Posted July 4, 2023 So, Back in the saddle. Holidays over for another year. I'm awaiting news on any potential flying time this weekend. Admittedly the weather is not looking good so I will tame my enthusiasm and try not to expect to much. Regardless, there are other activities that I can concentrate on. The Beaver repair and the A Rising Star assembly. Maybe even a little battery maintainence as I have had some of my Lipos lying charged for a few weeks now. I have not tried discharging before so if the batteries are not required for this weekend, I may try discharging back to a storage level. Shouldnt do any harm. I'm sitting ( working from home ) whilst I await the arising star servos which should be here today so if they turn up, I will have everything required to let me start on the arising star. If they dont arrive today, no worries I'm sure they will have done so by the weekend. Great to be back to terrorise the skies again. Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 Well, Not the return I wanted. Saturday .... went to the club and despite the sun splitting the sky, the wind was too great for flying. One of the more experienced members took a flight but soon returned to ground again as he was struggling to maintain control when flying into the wind. ..... so this equalled ....... a cup of coffee, a blether and a few biscuits. Sunday .... today ..... went up to the club ..... again a screamer of a day ....... absolutely beautiful weather with only a mild breeze. ...... perfect ..... let's get the Boomerang set up then....... gimme a battery ......... no battery. The instructor had packed them elsewhere. He had been doing quite a few Club visits and managed to pack them away forgetting to put them back in the car for today's session. ...... oh well ..... it happens ....... more coffee, wild stories and biscuits ..... actually .....Mr Kiplings cakes ...... every cloud has a silver lining. A couple of hours spent discussing models etc then back home to work on the Arising Star. Disappointing with regards the lack of flying but the aarising Star is coming on a bit now so .... all is not lost. Cheers for now....... until next weekend ..... saturdsy has been set aside by my instructor and there may be a chance of a couple of ad hoc flights with others on Sunday ....... there are mutterings to that effect. Cheers Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidan mcatamney Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Summer Solstice Flight of my carbon z t28 2m on June 21st 2023. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 Fantastic image Aidan ....... I'm jealous. Toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidan mcatamney Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 2 hours ago, toto said: Fantastic image Aidan ....... I'm jealous. Toto Lol Toto. It was a nice sky on the night which made a nice back drop for the outline of the big Trojan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 Well ..... hang on in there. I'll maybe join you sometime in the future with the " Tiger 60 " that I just bought ..... after seeing your " Tiger 40 " version. We can both get our pussy's out ..... if you'll forgive the phrase. keep bringing them on ...... cheers toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul devereux Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 On 02/07/2023 at 22:33, Peter Jenkins said: Actually, it's not "muscle memory" in my humble opinion. It is more your brain thinking ahead of the aeroplane. It is getting your uncoscious memory to take over. .. By the way, Paul's point about touch typing is a case in point. I learned the typewriter keyboard when I was 9 as my Mum wanted to keep me gainfully occupied while she did something else. Many years later, the keyboard and which fingers worked which key was still in my subconscious. Everything would work until the conscious intervened, as it suddenly decided to from time to time and that's when I started making mistakes. It is quite an interesting battle between the conscious and sub-conscious! I think muscle-memory is just another term for psychomotor skills and unconscious memory- it is not just knowledge, otherwise YouTube and reading would teach us. I think it is like learning to drive a car - at first you concentrate on clutch and gear changes and that can take your eye off the road. After a while the mechanics of driving become second nature and you are then able to concentrate on other traffic. I remember last summer, with my heart thumping, hoping I could get a few minutes flight in without hitting the ground unexpectedly. This summer, I am fairly certain that won't happen, and I am able to think about trying out different manoeuvres. I was very impressed with a video @Ron Gray posted on this forum, where he reached some height, half-rolled, then half looped and brought the plane back upright. I've been practising that (without any expertise of course) but it has been great fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidan mcatamney Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 3 hours ago, toto said: Well ..... hang on in there. I'll maybe join you sometime in the future with the " Tiger 60 " that I just bought ..... after seeing your " Tiger 40 " version. We can both get our pussy's out ..... if you'll forgive the phrase. keep bringing them on ...... cheers toto You will love the Tiger 60 Toto, its a great flying aircraft. Well built and very stable. Happy landings . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 Hi Aidan, It could be the next on the bech after the Arising Star is complete and airborne. Either that or the Phoenix Domino which is on its way. Three trainer models, two high wing and a low wing to satisfy my appetite whilst I build up my flying skills. Nothing more exotic than that prior to reaching the competency target. Enough to motivate me to frack this flying malarkey. Cheers buddy Toto 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul devereux Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 22 hours ago, toto said: Well, Not the return I wanted. Saturday .... went to the club and despite the sun splitting the sky, the wind was too great for flying. One of the more experienced members took a flight but soon returned to ground again as he was struggling to maintain control when flying into the wind. ..... so this equalled ....... a cup of coffee, a blether and a few biscuits. As a fellow beginner, but a bit further along the learning curve (only a bit, you will be astonished how quickly you will progress once you have learned not to knock your plane out of the sky with over-controlling it), I agree the wind has been dreadful this summer. I have been going out about 6am (I have to go out early to muck out our horses anyway) and trying to get a battery in (one flight- 7 minutes). If it is not windy its raining. I started a light-hearted thread about flying in rain, but got the usual pile-on about the BMFA Handbook and insurance and how life is a bitch and we all die anyway. That's why I gave you the link to RCG where people fly for fun. Lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 Hi Paul, I'm sure it would be worth while investing in another battery. At least then when the weather breaks ..... its double flying time. Maybe with a break in between. I hope my flying progresses as quickly as yours ... but then again .... we're all different. I'm due to be flying this Saturday with my mentor so fingers crossed the weather gods are with us. When I do go up to the field, if the weather turns against me, some of the other club members fire questions at me with reference " article 16 " which I find a useful use of otherwise dead time. It prepares you for sitting your test and a good way of keeping yourself safe and on the right side of the law. Any other inclement weather at weekends will be taken up by assembling some more trainers to bring into service. Loads of good advice at the club as well as on here of course ...... enjoy your flying ..... and look into finding a local club ........ so many great parts to this hobby ......... steady wings Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul devereux Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 On 04/07/2023 at 10:34, toto said: As far as the latter comment on the dangerous and boring element of other members comments, cant say I have experienced that here. I'd be surprised if anyone described this hobby as boring or they wouldn't be doing it. It's one of the most exciting hobbies out there ..... and I'm hooked. I only see enthusiasm here. To be honest, @toto I was reacting angrily at people who I think will rob this hobby of fun and enjoyment. That's where RCG differs- when you ask a technical question there, they will answer it, not ask if you are insured and if you are aware you can cause mass deaths. I will stand by this- if you have a -250gm plane, which is regarded by the CAA as a toy, you can fly it in a park, if the by-laws allow it. I would say a park is not the place to learn to fly, because by definition you have to be in control of it. As a learner, you are not in control. Many RC flyers fly in public places, or places the public have access to- slope soarers, rubber band flyers (yes they can be RC too), C/L flyers, thermal soarers, and the only people who will restrict us, are the kind of people in this forum who keep banging on about how dangerous it all is. And when they have got us all on their airfield, what are the slope soarers to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toto Posted July 10, 2023 Author Share Posted July 10, 2023 Hi Paul, I wouldn't get too bogged down in the legalities of it all. It is sufficient to say that by registering with the CAA and any other flying authority that by agreeing to their terms of registering, you automatically agree to read , familiarise and comply with Article 16. You have actually agreed to be bound by the rules contained within article 16. So without looking to labour the point ..... or ..... take the enjoyment out of the hobby for anyone ...... I'd be looking at doing just that. If .... heaven forbid you were to be involved in an accident , regardless of if the land is your own or not, and you end up in court in front of the man with the curly wig ........ ignorance of the rules / laws etc ..... is no plea. I don't want to beg you down in this either, I'd much rather hear about how you are getting on with your Wot4 and what your next purchase ( if any ) may be. I bet you could provide some great threads on your flying experiences , both successful and not so successful which I and other newbies would devour by the bucket load. Keep doing what you do best ........ progressing your flying and sharing your learning experiences. Stay well clear of the more controversial aspect as it clearly upsets you. However ..... do take heed of the information that you need to be aware of to keep you safe and on the right side of the law for both your and the hobbies sake. Get some photos of you kit up please ..... I'm gagging to see it ....... could be my next order Cheers and enjoy Toto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul devereux Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 13 minutes ago, toto said: Hi Paul, I'm sure it would be worth while investing in another battery. If I am only going to fly for 10 mins or so, why would need another battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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