First taste of the sky

[Learner]

6 minutes ago, toto said:

Hi Learner,

 

I'll check the ground clearance of the prop and also post up the size before I take the drill to it. A couple of checks wont do any harm. It may be that I have others there as well that maybe a better option. Let me check what I have.

 

Cheers

 

Toto

If i remember correctly its a wooden prop.Dont use a drill you need a prop reamer, if you havent a reamer you can get away with very small steps of drill say .5mm

[David Davis]

I've no experience of Force engines but if my experience of Irvine engines is anything to go by don't set them up for absolutely maximum rpm until they've had a couple of hours in the air. By the same token don't expect dead slow rpms at tick-over until they've been run-in. It's alright to run them in, in the air but I'd put a tankful of fuel through it first with the model restrained on the ground...

 

...and get someone who is experienced with glow engines to look at your est up. Better still get someone who loves glow engines to have a look at it.

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Funny my mentor suggested its maybe running too lean

 

according to 'experts' every dead stick in the history of glow engines has been caused by the engine being too lean. Shame its very rarely true.

 

Once again we are going to quantify the language here as it is often misused. 

 

Rich - Condition rich of peak revs. Smoke from exhaust, loss of power

Optimum - Peak RPM

Lean - Condition beyond peak RPM, loss of power, harsh running. Some engines may knock/throw props etc. 

 

Lean tuning can occur when people are too quick making adjustments. Once you get the engine to peak RPM hold it there for 5-10 seconds to make sure it holds as the engine warms up. If you rush you may overshoot the peak. Oh and the needle should be turned in one or two click steps. I have seen people do quarter turn at a time and wonder why they can get it tuned right. 

 

Anyway if the engine was lean (by tuning) it would never have made it into the air as typically a lean engine will overheat and stop within a few seconds, and you will clearly notice the loss of power. 

 

Now engines may go lean in flight due to the fuel level in the tank dropping. This is usually an issue when tanks are in the wrong place. Most tanks are installed too high, always align the top of the tank with the centre of the carb. 

 

In your specific case it didnt fly for long enough for the tank level to drop so it was likely something else. Did you instructor chappy throttle back? Once you come off full power its pretty hard to get an engine to lean cut no matter how awful the tuning is so it could be something else. Being a new model it could be debris in the tank blocking the needle. 

1 hour ago, EarlyBird said:

All engines need running in except Lasers. @Jon - Laser Enginessets them up just fit and fly, amazing, the only thing to do is not alter the settings.

 

ehhh kinda. I bench run all of the engine before they leave but they still need adjustment to suit your model, prop, plug etc. This will be on both the main and slow run needles. With that done you can ignore the slow run for a while as they only occasionally creep over time. The main needle should be adjust at the start of every flying day. Its simple procedure. Open 1/4 turn, back to peak, done. 5-10 seconds tops. 

 

I know there is this idea that you can tune an engine and then never touch it. You can, assuming its tuned really conservatively and probably running like a dog. But if you want maximum performance you tune every day you fly. 5-10 seconds, not a big deal. If you struggle with tuning and it takes longer than that to dial in the settings then that it all the more reason to practice it. 

 

 

[Denis Watkins]

The Force motors Toto, have a brass banjo set up on the fuel inlet that tends to slacken and pressure leak after warming up.

Tighten up the assembly using 2 suitable spanners that fit correctly as brass easily rounds off at the edges.I

Plumbing and tank placement, good plug and fresh fuel all lead to reliable runs, where only your kill switch will stop the motor.

[Don Fry]

Toto, listen.

your tutor is not an idiot. Faced with one dead stick got it back on the patch. Success

Second attempt, failed engine, again, it’s not trash, but he had less Hight, and did not Turn. Big decide, Enough Hight, 2 turns to land. No Hight, hit the ground, no turn, as soft as possible. 

But he accepts, not his preferred power plant. Different skills. 
 

But if he is a leccy flier, go with it, plane does not actually care what gets it up.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Don Fry
Deleted third paragraph.

[toto]

Thanks chaps.

 

Loads of possibilities going on there.

 

I have called off tomorrows session for now. I think I need to ensure that the domino is matched with the correct propeller before risking another model coming down. I will also do a bit more bench testing on the Domino as well to ensure that all the servos are operating well before taking it up for the all clear and its maiden. 

 

This has been done so far but I'm going to go over it again just to make sure. It's not been fitted with a prop so far so I'll go out to the shed shortly ( just woken from a much needed slumber)  and start running through all the leccy tests and mechanical surface test again.

 

I'll post up some details on what props I have at hand and I'll try looking at clearances for them as well. I'll post some photos up. If you want 5o comment ..... by all means feel free. There is absolutely no rush .... as I said ..... I've brought tomorrows proceedings to a halt.

 

I'll also refresh 2hat motor and ESC the prop would be running with. It's probably beat me continuing the details for this on the Domino build thread so feel free to look out for updates shortly.

 

Many thanks

 

Toto

[toto]

Well,

 

Had a welcome break from things today ..... never got out my scratcher until around 2.00pm. .... unheard of for many a year. 

 

My sleeping pattern is all to pot so took advantage whilst I could.

 

I plan to try and ease myself back into RC mode tomorrow as well as making a few calls to tie down a new work commission with some potential Clients. 

 

Anyway ..... tomorrow I'll be doing what I should have been doing today and looking to resolve the Domino issues.

 

I hope my Dubro wheels arrive as this will give me a more accurate idea of ground clearance with reference to the prop size.

 

There is a possibility that the motor currently employed may be to big. I will investigate that further as well. May as well before I try to settle on the prop size. I'll reiterate that I didn't spec this motor myself. 

 

I gave a few Electro speed motor / ESC combo's that may be able to be substituted if necessary. I can post up more accurate details if anyone would be up for trying to put me on the right track and before I go buying anything else.

 

This has been a long road but I'm sure there will be light at the end of the tunnel before long and probably more important ....I'll have learnt something from it.

 

Thanks again

 

Toto 

[toto]

No flying this weekend ....... looks like Elvington wins the day ....

 

Not for me though. I was invited to go but family commitments seen an end to that idea. 

 

Looks like next weekend then.

 

Toto

[Peter Jenkins]

Keep smiling and stay positive!  You'll get there and then the whole world will look different!

[toto]

Thanks Peter,

 

Things are just drifting at the moment. I don't know what the prospects are for the coming weekend if any. Last weekend was a right off due to the lack of availability .... a mixture of other folks own commitments and of course Elvingtom. This coming weekend maybe similar.

 

I've also kept clear of the shed with the exception of fitting the recently received replacement Dubro wheels for the Tiger 60 build as that was straight forward. I'll wait for an indication of what the plans are for the coming weeks and take the lead from that ...... otherwise ..... I'll just sit on my hands for a while. Very frustrating and at the moment ... there is no " plan B ".

 

I have been chased up by another club that had shown great interest at the start but I'm a bit reluctant to go making that kind of change as I could be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I think patience is the watchword for now and I just need to ride it out. One of my biggest fears is that due to the lack of continuity, I end up back at square one. 

 

Fingers crossed for change.

 

Toto

[GrumpyGnome]

Much as I'm a believer in continuity, it may be worth trying the other club on a try-before-you-join basis if they're up for that......

[toto]

Mmmmm I might contact them and arrange a visit. No harm in that. 

 

Let's get this week out the way first and see where it heads. ..... more procrastination ......

 

 

Toto

[Denis Watkins]

Very frustrating Toto, I have 3 novices under my wing at the moment and we have just completed 6 weeks away from flying due to summer wet and wind, and like you,my weekend flying novice only has 7 visits in his log book, meaning the he managed 7 weekends with suitable weather for the whole year.

He has 4 batteries, so I spend a minute getting him up and a minute getting him down, so he spends 4 minutes per battery flying. In 7 visits, he has flown about 2 hours.

This is where the flight SIM comes in, 1st priority, Get On Your Flight SIM

Edited August 14, 2023 by Denis Watkins

[MattyB]

On 06/06/2023 at 20:10, toto said:

I don't rule myself out from slope soaring ..... or anything for that matter. its maybe just that they haven't been top of my agenda ...... for now. i'd like to bet that I'll get around to it at some point though.

 

i don't think I'll even touch the subject with my trainer though. i think if i can get any kind of adequate time sticking with one " type ", I'll be grateful with that for now. 😄 

 

...To try and split my time between someone who takes me up with my usual outfit and someone who does slope soaring would be a step too far at the moment i think. its hard enough trying to coordinate planning with one instructor at the moment.

 

As I said though, given time, and actually progressing my flying to a solo standard, nothing is ruled out.

 

Given your experience so far it maybe time to rethink the text in bold above, assuming you have a slope nearby that you can use... 

 

I am slightly biased as I learnt to fly on the slope, but there are a lot of advantages to adding a cheap 2ch EPP wing or R/E trainer to your quiver...

• You have already learnt the basics of the controls on the sim and your power plane, so you dont need to learn those on the slope
• When it's too windy for a beginner to contemplate poewr flying at the field, you still have a flying option.
• You can get a lot of stick time in a short period - flights of more than an hour can eqasily be achieved if you want. 
• An EPP wing is cheap and super resilient, so having the odd crash is no big deal - 99 times in 100 you can jsut check it over and throw it back off.
• You don't need an instructor alongside you all the time, or a buddy box setup. All that is necessary for someone with your level of understanding and expereince is an experienced slope head to trim out the model for you initially, and then spend half an hour teaching you the basics of slope flying (e.g. always turnign away from the hill at each end, the difference between track and heading etc). I've taught many newcomers on the slope,a nd within 30 mins or so you will be happily tacking back and forth. After that it's just practice practice practice, but because the repercussions of a bump on landing are essentially zero, your can learn how to do land (though it would be a good idea to let an expereinced pilot explain how they plan their circuit for the given conditions).

The only disadvatage is that it is another model you need to buy and assemble, but a suitable EPP wing is much cheaper and quicker to get int he air than most of your previous purchases. Here's a few options:

 

• Wildthing 46" or 60"
• Windrider Bee2 (all moulded EPP wing - probably the best flying chevron there is, but only available direct form Windrider in Hong Kong now it seems)
• Fury (not hear of this one previously, but it is at least available in the UK and seems to fly well):

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

Another option - convert one of these cheap as chips foamie gliders from eBay with 2-4 cheap servos and a few bits of carbon glued in for slope use in light-med winds. You can even add a small motor if you want so it can be flown off the flat as well...

 

 

There are a few threads around showing how to do ths - this one uses a pitcheron system where the whole wing is driven up and down to provide elvator and aileron function, with the tail still, but if you prefer you could go for a conventional setup like this, or add some dihedral and go for rudder and elevator only. Why not give it a try? I might be tempted myself at £20...!

 

This full playlist on converting the model is useful, and here is a vid of him flying it...

 

 

...and another person's conversion details...

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by MattyB

[toto]

Hi MattyB,

 

Many thanks for all the highlighted suggestions with regards to potential slope soaring.

 

I would need to look at where I could slope soar in my area. I come from Edinburgh. I'll have a look about and see where the nearest sites would be. We have Arthur's Seat here in Edinburgh which in my mind would probably be ideal but it is a city centre location and only a stones throw from the Scottish Parliament. The surroundingnlower area is a public park as well so I think that could be a no no.

 

I could just imagine Nichola Sturgeon ducking for cover as she came out of the parliament on the way out for a bacon roll at lunch time. 

 

On the point of suitable models, I do have a Max Thrust Agressor I'm sure it's the 1800mm wingspan version  ( I'd need to check ) ..... cowering in its box in the shed. 

 

I'll come back and confirm that later.

 

I'll do a search for slope soaring sites in or near my locale and see what it throws up. It may well be a temporary way forward. As it is ....... I've just been given the green light for both Saturday and Sunday this weekend ........ weather pending of course and to be honest .... it looks like the weather could be Improving slightly as well. ...... how many times have we thought that.

 

Feel free to let me know your thoughts on the Agressor.

 

Toto

[leccyflyer]

Toto - your nearest slope to Edinburgh would be next to the dry ski slope, where the Forth Valley Soarers fly and they would be able to help you out. I haven't flown there myself, but when I was working in Edinburgh I always fancied giving it a go.

 

http://www.forthvalleysoarers.org.uk/

[leccyflyer]

The Aggressor Ridge variant is an excellent aerobatic slope glider, I have one myself - it can be a little bit delicate for rough landings, I've snapped the fuselage immediately behind the wing joiner on mine in a cartwheeling arrival, but it repaired okay and is a joy to fly - maybe not a first soarer though. You could do a lot worse than the EPP glider that Matty suggests, or a simple Lidl glider aileron elevator conversion. Lots of information out there on how to convert these cheap and cheerful chuckies into viable slope soarers as ell as prop or EDF powered models.

[MattyB]

50 minutes ago, toto said:

Hi MattyB,

 

Many thanks for all the highlighted suggestions with regards to potential slope soaring.

 

I would need to look at where I could slope soar in my area. I come from Edinburgh. I'll have a look about and see where the nearest sites would be. We have Arthur's Seat here in Edinburgh which in my mind would probably be ideal but it is a city centre location and only a stones throw from the Scottish Parliament. The surroundingnlower area is a public park as well so I think that could be a no no.

 

I could just imagine Nichola Sturgeon ducking for cover as she came out of the parliament on the way out for a bacon roll at lunch time. 

 

On the point of suitable models, I do have a Max Thrust Agressor I'm sure it's the 1800mm wingspan version  ( I'd need to check ) ..... cowering in its box in the shed. 

 

Feel free to let me know your thoughts on the Agressor.

 

 

As I think we discussed before, the Aggressor will be too fast for a beginner on the slope, and isn't bouncy enough to have a long life in the hands of a newcomer to slope flying. You need an EPP model designed for some rough and tumble as per the ones listed in my previous post - it doesn't necessarily have to be one of them, but it absolutely should be made from EPP foam.

 

PS - I was going to recommend the Slopehunter site and their Google map of slope sites so you could find your nearest slope, but that does not list any sites in Scotland. I'm sure the Forth Valley Soarers (link posted above by leccy) can help, or maybe ask in this Facebook group - it looks like there are lots of knowledgeable locals on there...

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by MattyB

[MattyB]

5 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

The Aggressor Ridge variant is an excellent aerobatic slope glider, I have one myself - it can be a little bit delicate for rough landings, I've snapped the fuselage immediately behind the wing joiner on mine in a cartwheeling arrival, but it repaired okay and is a joy to fly - maybe not a first soarer though. You could do a lot worse than the EPP glider that Matty suggests, or a simple Lidl glider aileron elevator conversion. Lots of information out there on how to convert these cheap and cheerful chuckies into viable slope soarers as ell as prop or EDF powered models.

 

I think a Lidl conversion will be too small for a total newcomer to slope - they can be fun for an expereinced hand, but inevitably getted knocked about a lot due to their small size. Soaring performance isn't generally stellar either, so I would tend to go for a chevron wing or a larger conventional planform EPP model if possible.

[MattyB]

Another good option is the Multiplex Easyglider - not cheap, but a quality bit fo kit for someone starting out on the slope...

 

 

• Ready to run (except and RX) version
• Foam kit version

[leccyflyer]

The Easyglider - IMO - is the perfect choice - it was my first glider on the slope and on the flat, has flown at lots of different sites and is a very high quality piece of kit. Uses inexpensive 3s1p 2200mah lipos, has a towhook fitted, so can go off a winch, or be aerotowed, equally at home on the flat field or on the slope. I wouldn't be without one. Highly recommended.

 

 

 

[toto]

Thanks for the above recommendations.

 

The easyglider looks like an option and not too expensive. I already have suitable lipos and TX.

 

I will need to do the homework on the soaring sites etc first and try and determine the viability of what's happening at my Club before jumping into anything else.

 

The Hillend dry ski slope is just a 20 minute drive away so could be worth a visit and a casual chat with the folks up there.

 

Thanks for now.

 

Toto 

[MattyB]

26 minutes ago, toto said:

Thanks for the above recommendations.

 

The easyglider looks like an option and not too expensive. I already have suitable lipos and TX.

 

I will need to do the homework on the soaring sites etc first and try and determine the viability of what's happening at my Club before jumping into anything else.

 

The Hillend dry ski slope is just a 20 minute drive away so could be worth a visit and a casual chat with the folks up there.

 

Thanks for now.

 

Toto 

 

To be clear, I don't think anyone here is suggesting you move on from your power club. The reason we are suggesting slope soaring is because you can get a lot of stick time in quickly on days when you probably wouldn't be flying a power model at your club, meaning your flying should improve at a faster rate. It's an AND, not an OR! 😉 

 

Starting to slope on the days when conditions prevent you flying power won't "confuse" your power flying either; quite the opposite in my experience, as slope piltos tend to make extremely good power flyers if they choose to go that route.  

Edited August 15, 2023 by MattyB

[leccyflyer]

As Matty said, no intention to lure you away from power flying at all, it's just that the slope does offer flying opportunities when flying power on the flat field isn't possible. I'd flown power for many years before trying the slope and found it very different, it's a completely different set of principles in action, but it is an addition to power flying, not a replacement and most certainly not a replacement in terms of learning to fly, the whole energy management and basic flight patterns are very different.