Where do you stand when taking off?

[John Lee]

I may have been misinterpreted. My contention is that it is safer to commence your take off at position A rather than B, so that at no point is the model pointing towards the Pilot's Box when on the ground and accelerating for takeoff.

 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

That’s unarguably safer with the proviso that it’s well known that one of the most useless things in aviation is runway behind you…

[Eric Robson]

1 hour ago, John Lee said:

 

That practice worries me when I see it. You are starting the flight with the model basically pointing towards you, accelerating and at full throttle. Any mistake or malfunction & you are in the firing line. 

 

John, the runway was used in ww2 for Wellington bombers so standing at the side of the runway I had more width than the strip I now fly from.

However it was in poor condition after 40 years of neglect, at the time there was only two of us allowed to use it so most times I was alone.  Common sense saves a lot of accidents.

I found ot later my Uncle was stationed there throughout the war as an engine fitter, for sensorship reasons his mail had go through the main airfield which was Silverstone 

[GaryW]

6 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

That’s unarguably safer with the proviso that it’s well known that one of the most useless things in aviation is runway behind you…

 

I wudda said the most useless thin in model aviation is the one on the sticks ( The Pilot ) LOL

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Speaking from experience Gary?  😜

[GaryW]

6 minutes ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Speaking from experience Gary?  😜

 

How did u guess...lol

[Eric Robson]

12 minutes ago, John Lee said:

I may have been misinterpreted. My contention is that it is safer to commence your take off at position A rather than B, so that at no point is the model pointing towards the Pilot's Box when on the ground and accelerating for takeoff.

 

That is the ideal position John but the strip in our club is quite small small so larger models have to take off from B,warning is given on take off although one or two members are advised to take off from A if they have smaller models and if they bring something a bit bigger everyone is alerted 🤣

[Bruce Collinson]

We move the pilot box position depending on wind direction and therefore takeoff/landing direction, with a consensus first thing if it's cross strip, two boxes mown and marked out and a marker post to confirm which is in use.   The boxes are c. 30m upwind from the downwind strip edge so most of the takeoff can be from at least in front and a touchdown level with the box usually results in a happy ending.

 

Likewise, windsock(s) are located according to wind direction.

 

The key remains audible communication within the box.

 

BTC

[Jon H]

1 hour ago, John Lee said:

I may have been misinterpreted. My contention is that it is safer to commence your take off at position A rather than B, so that at no point is the model pointing towards the Pilot's Box when on the ground and accelerating for takeoff.

 

 

But your very helpful arrow shows clearly the model is not pointing towards the pilots box. If a pilot cant take off from position B without killing everyone in the pilots box then they need to have their solo revoked and go back into training. A model taken off from point B is no more dangerous than a model landing at point B. i would consider point B the start of the touchdown zone with point A being the end of the touchdown zone. a go around should be performed if passing point A  while still in the air. This is assuming landing from the right as per the arrows. 

 

I would in fact argue that a landing at point B is more dangerous as the model has more energy than one taking off from the same location. 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Jenkins]

2 hours ago, Martin Harris - Moderator said:

Maybe I’ve misinterpreted the requirements (I know you were a member of the ASRC at one time) but I would allow someone to position a model which couldn’t reasonably be taxied and return to the pilot’s box before taking off.  
 

Edit: The wording of the test documentation (my italics) seems to support this view:

 

The pilot must stand in the designated pilot area for the entirety of the flying part of the test. 

 (b)  Take off and complete a left (or right) hand circuit and overfly the take-off area. 

The model may be carried out to the take off position by the candidate or a helper or it may be taxied out from a safe position in front of the pits/pilots area. Taxiing out of the pits is an instant fail. Prior to carrying or taxiing out, the pilot should inform other pilots flying that his model is going out onto the active area.

Take off must be performed with the model a safe distance from the pilot box area and on a line which does not take the model towards the pits, other people or any other danger/no fly area. 

Martin and JR Man

 

You are quite right.  The wording is explicit on not requiring the model to be taxied out.  But, the point I was seeking to make, and added an incorrect statement, is that the pilot must stand in the designated pilot area for the entirety of the the flying part of the test.   You cannot take an A, or B for that matter, taking off standing behind the model.  The Examiner should stop you doing that and gently suggest that you practice the take off from the pilot box before asking to be tested again.  The point about hand launching is also covered in the guidance notes.

 

Many have commented that they stand behind the model to take off whereas the BMFA require you to demonstrate that you can take off safely when standing in the pilot box.  Why do they have this rule?  It's the same reason there is the need to demonstrate both the ability to turn left and right as part of the A Test.  I've seen an A pilot who had to fly left hand circuits to land even if this meant he overflew the landing area in order to turn left to land.  One wonders how he passed his A test.

 

All of these discussions seem to revolve around safety.  Well, there is another factor and that's the ability to make the aircraft do what you want it to do which, IMHO, is an extension of safety.  If you cannot control where your model is heading during take off then you need a bit more practice.  

 

John Lee's point that it is dangerous to take off towards yourself is quite right.  I never do that because I'm taking off on the runway heading which is not pointing at me.  If at any stage of the take off, it appears there is a problem with me maintaining the runway heading, I immediately close the throttle and abort the take off.  For an A test, the wording is clear that you must have a good reason for aborting the take off such as an engine that has gone sick.  Losing control of the take off direction, depending on how it is handled and how bad the loss of direction is, may result in a fail. 

 

IMHO, if you find that you cannot take off safely, then you need to practise this until you can.  I take the point about maidens and I agree that asking for a clear sky makes sense and most pilots tend to want to watch anyway.

 

By the way, I only served one term of 2 years on the ASRC and ceased being a member in 2015 I think.

[MattyB]

5 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

From reading the thread I don't believe anyone is saying that it is necessary to stand behind the model for take off. Several posters have said that they do so for maiden flights and Jon has just stated good, sound reasons for the practice. I still think a large amount of where and how one stands is to do with the basic site configuration and not all club sites are the same. Folks are speaking about taxiways and pilot's boxes and my experience has been that there are a variety of site configurations and it has been shown recently in other threads that the practice of taxiing is a proper can of worms. 

 

I completely agree with this statement - for me it's all about the site config (and, to a lesser extent, the number of fliers in attendance).

 

At some sites I have flown where they have nice taxiways and pilot boxes; obviously taking off from those locations is the best option unless it's a tricky taildragger maiden (as previously discussed). However, one of our club sites is a rugby pitch (and therefore has a very rough surface) with numerous posts dotted about in the landing and approach areas. To make it even more "interesting" the main flight area is reached by flying between a rugby post and some large trees through a gap ~20m wide.

 

This is fine for experienced pilots, but if you have a small taildragger or are a relative newcomer it's far far easier to take off from behind. Given we are a small club and tend to only have a maximum of 3 aircraft airborne at a time, this poses no problems - we just complete our pre-flight checks on the edge of the runway, call when entering the patch, put down the model, take off then exit to the pilot box. At this specific site this is undoubtedly the safest way to operate.

 

PS - I don't actually disagree with the BMFA's doctrine for A tests requiring all the flying from the pilot box though, as being able to take off from that position (right to left or left to right) is an essential skill that you won't necessarily gain if you've always stood behind at take-off.

[KenC]

I read with interest the comments on " the pilot box" . Watching American YT videos I see these club sites where build tables in the pits  with restraints fitted, and pilot stand points nearer the runway, enclosed protectively against low moving propellers.   This sort of organised , well facilitated flying venue I have yet to experience in this part of the world.  Were this " pilot box " to be situated mid way along or close to the runway , it strikes me that the runway would have to either extend quite a distance either side of this mid position , to allow passage in both directions.  If the runway were shorter and one chose not to have an aircraft moving towards them on takeoff , would a movable "pilot box" not  be best sited nearer the corner opposite to the prevailing wind.  Handily this would place the pilot more behind the motion of takeoff , and the aircraft .  If this mid position is used the takeoff passes the pilot who in most cases I have met is unprotected from this.  As for the dangers of moving aircraft and pilots, picture four pilots all watching their models in the sky as the fifth makes a low pass from the left over the runway !

[Peter Jenkins]

28 minutes ago, KenC said:

I read with interest the comments on " the pilot box" . Watching American YT videos I see these club sites where build tables in the pits  with restraints fitted, and pilot stand points nearer the runway, enclosed protectively against low moving propellers.   This sort of organised , well facilitated flying venue I have yet to experience in this part of the world.  Were this " pilot box " to be situated mid way along or close to the runway , it strikes me that the runway would have to either extend quite a distance either side of this mid position , to allow passage in both directions.  If the runway were shorter and one chose not to have an aircraft moving towards them on takeoff , would a movable "pilot box" not  be best sited nearer the corner opposite to the prevailing wind.  Handily this would place the pilot more behind the motion of takeoff , and the aircraft .  If this mid position is used the takeoff passes the pilot who in most cases I have met is unprotected from this.  As for the dangers of moving aircraft and pilots, picture four pilots all watching their models in the sky as the fifth makes a low pass from the left over the runway !

KenC,

 

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making.  Is it that there are a lot of incompetent pilots who cannot take off safely or that there pilots who do low passes who cannot be trusted to fly in such a way that they are at least 20 ft away from the pilot box and will not endanger the pilots in the box?  

 

I always thought that the key when flying with others is to announce your intention so that they are aware of what is happening.

 

I have flown at one club where we only had one take off and landing direction due to the geography and where the pilot "box" was moved to approx 10 m of the downwind end of the runway.  You joined the line going upwind and as pilots left new pilots were supposed to plug these gaps to avoid the whole line moving up the runway.  When they moved sites, they had a single pilot box with some protective barriers around them.  Two other clubs I fly at have a fixed PB, one with no protection and one with a 4 ft screen to stand behind.  I have never witnessed any near misses in either of those two cases. 

 

Is your worry based on an actual nasty or just something that you think is inherently dangerous?

[Jon H]

You ideally want to stand at the mid point of the runway, and beyond that the mid point of the airspace you fly in. Not always possible, but that is the ideal. My current field i guess we stand about 30-40% of the way down? something like that. 

 

I have flown at clubs who have movable pilot areas and its just a pain. One club i flew at insisted we all moved from one end of the runway to the other as the wind changed half way through the day, only to move back a half hour later. If you are in the middle you just swap ends on the fly. I cant count the times i have attempted a landing one way only to change my mind and come from the other end as the wind shifted. 

 

Not a fan of the US layout's though as you tend to be about a half mile from the runway centreline which makes everything more difficult. 

[Geoff S]

We fly from a former WW2 airfield runway which runs roughly NS and the pits normally run up the Eastern side with the 'pilot box' (just where we stand - no fence) about half way towards the northern end.  In practice, we usually fly across the runway (which is quite wide) but have a big grass area to the East as well, which means we're effectively half way along the usable runway - some of it grass.  The only time we shift the pits to the Western side of the main runway is if the wind is blowing straight into the pits ie a NNW which is quite rare.   With the prevailing Westerlies it's nice to approach over the grass to touch down on the edge of the tarmac.

 

I agree with Jon's opinion about the formalised US sites I've seen on YouTube - the pilots are too far apart to communicate easily and too far from the runway centre line (or center line 🙂 )   It's all about communicating your desires and not doing anything without asking and getting an acknowledgement.  When I've flown at Buckminster all the pilots were more or less shoulder to shoulder and everything worked well.  It was at the forum fly-in in 2019 and was one of the best weekend flying experiences I've ever had.

[Michael Barclay]

I guess it depends on who else is flying. Sometimes on the flght-line, other times well back!!!

[John Stainforth]

On 03/08/2023 at 16:13, Geoff S said:

We fly from a former WW2 airfield runway which runs roughly NS and the pits normally run up the Eastern side with the 'pilot box' (just where we stand - no fence) about half way towards the northern end.  In practice, we usually fly across the runway (which is quite wide) but have a big grass area to the East as well, which means we're effectively half way along the usable runway - some of it grass.  The only time we shift the pits to the Western side of the main runway is if the wind is blowing straight into the pits ie a NNW which is quite rare.   With the prevailing Westerlies it's nice to approach over the grass to touch down on the edge of the tarmac.

 

I agree with Jon's opinion about the formalised US sites I've seen on YouTube - the pilots are too far apart to communicate easily and too far from the runway centre line (or center line 🙂 )   It's all about communicating your desires and not doing anything without asking and getting an acknowledgement.  When I've flown at Buckminster all the pilots were more or less shoulder to shoulder and everything worked well.  It was at the forum fly-in in 2019 and was one of the best weekend flying experiences I've ever had.

This is not my experience in the US. The pilot stations are usually alongside the runway, just behind the flight line, a few feet apart from each each (so communication is easy) and only about fifteen feet away from the plane as it passes down the runway during take-off or landing. Standard practice is to taxi up the runway to position B for take-off. (This is also a rather good practice in full-size aviation IMO!) The position of the pilot stations never changes, regardless of wind direction. The pilots decide whilst flying, by consensus, which way to land if the wind changes direction. Most clubs allow two people in each pilot station. Some also have a large collective pilot station where many pilots can stand together if they are doing formation or display flying. Personally, I have seen nothing to criticise in US model sites. Generally, they are exemplary, beautifully laid out, and with a great emphasis on safety. 

[leccyflyer]

If there is one thing I have learned about flying sites, it's that there is no "usually" when it comes to the details - different sites are different and the range and variability in facilities, layout and operating procedures is quite large.