Top RC bf109 mode 1

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

8 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

Side to side is important as well Martin but we know that...

Important for precision aerobatics but within sensible limits it has little effect on safe operation.

 

Lateral C of G change during flight...

[Rich Griff]

It's going back, just waiting for email from shop about returns slip.

 

The whole order came to £106 summit, extra batteries and lipo sack, all going back for a refund. That amount of money is a lot to me.

 

Disappointed as I was going to use the toprc motor/gearbox/prop/Rx/battery and tx set up in some slightly enlarged kk freeflight subject....

 

A rethink ( much more expense ) taking place now.....

[leccyflyer]

3 hours ago, Rich Griff said:

Ok, I emailed Perkins about issues with this model toprc fb109 450 mm wing span mode 1 artf model, a complete "kit" just needing Rx battery charging, batteries fitting and final assembly. A quick ready to fly model.

 

I mentioned....

 

A. Battery movement in battery bay which I consider would cause trim changes whilst in flight.

 

( Trim changes, varying battery position, variable c of g, "atitude", angle of attack ).

 

B. Binding/stiff elevator control rod, possible servo stall, poor elevator control.

 

C. Quite large trim changes of elevator and rudder when gyro switch operated. Manual states gyro switch can be operated whilst model is in flight.

 

D. No elevator trim function via trim button.

 

I had an email reply from a j Perkins representative JP Service Knowledge Base dept.

 

A. " With the wing fitted the battery can move a small amount, and does not effect trim.".

 

The battery can move more than a "small amount" and would, as is, move about enough to cause change in c of g,  "attitude" and angle of attack, in my opinion.

 

I could easily make a fitment cradle so battery fits in same place every time without compromising air flow cooling in battery bay area.

 

B. Stuff control rod.

 

This subject was not answered at all !

 

Poor elevator control, servo struggling to achieve anything like full deflection easily, possible servo stalling, brown out, burn out.

 

Needs push rod "hole" sorting rather than letting push rod saw its way into the fuzelage to free its self off.

 

Difficult as surface control horns are locked to control surfaces via barb and catch.

 

C. Large trim change via gyro switch.

" The surface movement when holding the model in your hand and toggling the trainer switch is probably due to the model not being level and the electronics trying to correct. This is normal. ".

 

Probably ????

It was on level ground, a table actually, set as level as I could get it.

 

Why would elevator and rudder "rest, trimmed" positions change, but not ailerons as well.....these trim changes would cause a crash in very quick time.

 

Yes I could just trim surfaces when gyro in fixed position, and not alter it in flight. Manual says gyro which can be used in flight.

 

D. No elevator trim button function.

 

This subject was not answered at all other than.....

 

" Hi Richard, sorry, it seems that the factory have supplied TX's with the throttle and elevator trims reversed, so that elevator trim is on R/H side and throttle on L/H side. ".

 

No wonder I saw no elevator trim....

 

After some further emails from me asking about unanswered issues he replied.....

 

" Hi Richard

It might be best to return the kit back to your shop for credit/refund but it might be worth just flying it with gyro off on first flight, trimming and then trying with stabilisation switched on

 

His name "

 

Yeah right.

No refund for a crashed model aircraft !

 

So, it's going back to the shop.

They are interested in Perkins suggestions which I will be emailing to them with full names etc..

 

Would I recommend the toprc bf109 450mm wing span mode 1    top096B ?

 

Apparently there are no issues with a mode 2 Mustang, gbg has one.

 

I am mode 1. Doh....

 

 

 

 

It's remarkable that Perkins representative would make the suggestion that the factory had supplied transmitters with the throttle trim and elevator trim positions reversed, when the manual indicates that the transmitter does not have a throttle trim at all.

[leccyflyer]

53 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

It's going back, just waiting for email from shop about returns slip.

 

The whole order came to £106 summit, extra batteries and lipo sack, all going back for a refund. That amount of money is a lot to me.

 

Disappointed as I was going to use the toprc motor/gearbox/prop/Rx/battery and tx set up in some slightly enlarged kk freeflight subject....

 

A rethink ( much more expense ) taking place now.....

Before you send the model back, is there any chance you could answer mine and Martin's question about which trim button you were using to try to trim the elevator?

[Rich Griff]

It's going back, just waiting for email from shop about returns slip.

 

The whole order came to £106 summit, extra batteries and lipo sack, all going back for a refund. That amount of money is a lot to me.

 

Disappointed as I was going to use the toprc motor/gearbox/prop/Rx/battery and tx set up in some slightly enlarged kk freeflight subject....

 

A rethink ( much more expense ) taking place now.....

[Rich Griff]

Sorry for delay in reply gents, internet is very poor here.

 

Had email with returns slip so library in the morning to print it off and emails between me and Perkins etc. to be placed in box before final sealing up and handed to post office staff in caernarfon.

 

The shop is going to forward the package to Perkins for investigation, then refund.

 

I will be asking for Perkins verdict and reasons why etc..

 

Mode 1 tx

Elevator stick on left. Digital trim next to elevator, the button working in the same way, move away from you to give down elevator with stick and with button.

 

Towards you for up elevator movement both stick and button.

 

Down trim, no bleep and no elevator movement, nothing happens.

 

Up trim, only a single bleep, no elevator movement.

 

Up trim held, only one bleep not continual bleed and no elevator movement.

 

Other issues as mentioned.

 

Perkins say return to shop.

 

It's going back to the shop, the whole order, for full refund hopefully.

 

Plane has not been flown.

 

I will report back on verdict/outcome. I Expect it may take 2 weeks for the process to happen.

 

David Ashby did rcme article in June issue featuring this model subject, toprc bf109 450mm w/span mode 1.

 

He did mention issues " frantic down command".

 

He has said he gave the model away.

 

Did he give it to someone on here ? ?

 

If so, how is it now please ?

 

The problem seems to be limited to bf109 mode 1 examples, unless you, the reader of this post, knows otherwise ?

 

Gbg has the Mustang subject mode 2 and reports no problems?

 

Is this so please gbg ?

 

Your reply ( gbg ) much appreciated.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I'm somewhat confused by this matter.  Reading between the lines, it seems that it's likely that the conversion from Mode 2 to Mode 1 has been done without moving the trim button.  If so, the instructions are still correct and as there is no single "legal" convention [I think there are at least 5 recognised modes] a manufacturer has no obligation to provide a particular layout.  There's also the possibility that your example is faulty.

 

Hopefully with a combination of goodwill and distance selling legislation you'll get a response which is financially satisfactory to you but I wouldn't expect the product to be recalled.

[leccyflyer]

2 hours ago, Rich Griff said:

Sorry for delay in reply gents, internet is very poor here.

 

Had email with returns slip so library in the morning to print it off and emails between me and Perkins etc. to be placed in box before final sealing up and handed to post office staff in caernarfon.

 

The shop is going to forward the package to Perkins for investigation, then refund.

 

I will be asking for Perkins verdict and reasons why etc..

 

Mode 1 tx

Elevator stick on left. Digital trim next to elevator, the button working in the same way, move away from you to give down elevator with stick and with button.

 

Towards you for up elevator movement both stick and button.

 

Down trim, no bleep and no elevator movement, nothing happens.

 

Up trim, only a single bleep, no elevator movement.

 

Up trim held, only one bleep not continual bleed and no elevator movement.

 

Other issues as mentioned.

 

Perkins say return to shop.

 

It's going back to the shop, the whole order, for full refund hopefully.

 

Plane has not been flown.

 

I will report back on verdict/outcome. I Expect it may take 2 weeks for the process to happen.

 

David Ashby did rcme article in June issue featuring this model subject, toprc bf109 450mm w/span mode 1.

 

He did mention issues " frantic down command".

 

He has said he gave the model away.

 

Did he give it to someone on here ? ?

 

If so, how is it now please ?

 

The problem seems to be limited to bf109 mode 1 examples, unless you, the reader of this post, knows otherwise ?

 

Gbg has the Mustang subject mode 2 and reports no problems?

 

Is this so please gbg ?

 

Your reply ( gbg ) much appreciated.

Rich - please look at your manual. The TopRC transmitters are not supplied with throttle trim.

 

If you have not already sent the model back it would be helpful if you could check, as requested earlier. Does your manual say that the button next to the left hand stick is elevator trim, or is it the U-Turn button. You are assuming that it is the elevator trim, but that is not necessarily the case. If you press the "trim" button on the right hand side of the transmitter does the elevator respond?

 

The question is whether the manufacturer on a Mode 1 transmitter has transposed the position of the U-Turn switch and the elevator trim lever.

 

We are trying to help you here, in order to understand what is going on.

[GBG]

Yes, I have been flying my Mustang and had no problems.

[Rich Griff]

Thanks gbg, very much appreciated.

 

So no apparent problems with mode 2 Mustang.

 

But 2 apparent problems with mode 1 bf109, David Ashby's, frantic elevator trim and mine, elevator trim, battery location, elevator control rod binding/possible servo stall/possible servo burn out/possible brown out, and, that very real "glitch" and bad trim change when gyro switch used.

 

It's all packed up ready for trip to post office in the morning.

 

I will patiently wait for further Comms with the shop and Perkins.

 

I will post outcomes when I know.

 

All help on this disappointment greatly appreciated.

 

I have not flown this model as there are too many problems with it. It's new and clearly not fit to fly.

 

If it was one of my "old model planes" it would be grounded until all stated problems sorted to my 100 percent satisfaction.

 

Safe flying is no accident after all.

 

I would not "fiddle, fettle, take apart or modify the 109 as it is under gaurantee, being a new model. Any fiddling with it would invalidate the gaurantee, anyway a wreck plane would not yield a refund.

 

I am sure readers would agree with that.

 

As to assigning tx sticks and trims to particular functions other than mode 1 protocol, I would not do, as I know that in a high stress, panic, emergency situation, I would return to mode 1 protocol, which has been hard wired into my head since 1982 ish, which would mean stuff like elevator trim for example would not be were I would instinctively expect it to be, resulting in confusion and a crash.

 

This keeps happening sometimes when flying the helo but not so much with the drones.

 

With the gliders etc. it's still mode 1 all the way, no problems, no hesitations, no issues.

 

Just like the cars brake pedal being the centre pedal, applied instinctively with vertualy no thinking time of "where the hell is the brake pedal" , an instant reflex. Well, an instant reflex action that my "old body and processor" can muster these days.

 

Stay safe out there guys and girls...

 

Ps, is David's 109 being recycled ?

[Learner]

1 hour ago, Rich Griff said:

Thanks gbg, very much appreciated.

 

So no apparent problems with mode 2 Mustang.

 

But 2 apparent problems with mode 1 bf109, David Ashby's, frantic elevator trim and mine, elevator trim, battery location, elevator control rod binding/possible servo stall/possible servo burn out/possible brown out, and, that very real "glitch" and bad trim change when gyro switch used.

 

It's all packed up ready for trip to post office in the morning.

 

I will patiently wait for further Comms with the shop and Perkins.

 

I will post outcomes when I know.

 

All help on this disappointment greatly appreciated.

 

I have not flown this model as there are too many problems with it. It's new and clearly not fit to fly.

 

If it was one of my "old model planes" it would be grounded until all stated problems sorted to my 100 percent satisfaction.

 

Safe flying is no accident after all.

 

I would not "fiddle, fettle, take apart or modify the 109 as it is under gaurantee, being a new model. Any fiddling with it would invalidate the gaurantee, anyway a wreck plane would not yield a refund.

 

I am sure readers would agree with that.

 

As to assigning tx sticks and trims to particular functions other than mode 1 protocol, I would not do, as I know that in a high stress, panic, emergency situation, I would return to mode 1 protocol, which has been hard wired into my head since 1982 ish, which would mean stuff like elevator trim for example would not be were I would instinctively expect it to be, resulting in confusion and a crash.

 

This keeps happening sometimes when flying the helo but not so much with the drones.

 

With the gliders etc. it's still mode 1 all the way, no problems, no hesitations, no issues.

 

Just like the cars brake pedal being the centre pedal, applied instinctively with vertualy no thinking time of "where the hell is the brake pedal" , an instant reflex. Well, an instant reflex action that my "old body and processor" can muster these days.

 

Stay safe out there guys and girls...

 

Ps, is David's 109 being recycled ?

Cant say in an emergency I would ever go for a trim switch!

I Would be concentrating on the landing as remember safe landing is no accident!

Edited August 9, 2023 by Learner

[EarlyBird]

9 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

I've come to the conclusion that there probably isn't anything wrong with the transmitter in this case. It just isn't behaving how the OP expected it to. Despite the fact that more than one person has tried to help in finding out whether there is an issue, by a couple of very simple tests and questions, the OPs reluctance to provide an answer to those question is an indication that the TX is more than likely functioning as indicated in the manual.

 

As stated early on in the original thread it's probably for the best that the model is returned for a refund.

Totally agree with this. There is no reason that the manufacturer of a RTF has to make the TX conform to the expected mainstream conventions. 

 

I am wondering what will happen if there is nothing wrong with it because it has been opened and been played with.

 

Steve

[leccyflyer]

Since it was purchased mail order, under the distance selling regulations the OP is entitled to a full refund within 14 days, irrespective of whether the item is faulty. He doesn't even need a reason, he could have just changed his mind and not fancy the model after all.

[Rich Griff]

Apparently my posts from the wonder full extremely quick and stable internet brilliant large vdu ( so much detail in the pictures compared to this postage stamp sized phone screen ) library computer didn't pass vetting...

 

I like the jig I saw, looking for that RM plan, no toprc bf109 spare parts to compare prices with, £3k for a tx !!!!!!!

 

Anyways doing research on microaces comparable tx's for microaces Rx motor/Rx units.....

 

I will be keeping an eye out for the "corrected" toprc 109's mode 1, and mode 1 spits due mid September.....

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Rich Griff

[Rich Griff]

 

Been busy in library in town printing email Comms between Perkins and myself. The gentleman's name had been protected.

 

Been trying to establish cost of 109 minus the radio gear to see if it's best to keep the model as is and convert to microaces radio stuff, but I need a suitable tx, with on tx on screen programming..... That orange radiolink tx had way tooooooooooooo many switches !

 

A tranis tx perhaps but then need computer, these costs just go on and on.......

 

 

So, the 109 is going back, end of.

 

David Ashby, the 109 you gave away, is it still flying by chance ?

[Ron Gray]

39 minutes ago, Rich Griff said:

A tranis tx perhaps but then need computer,

Why? If you are prepared to keep, rather than update, the OS then everything can be done on the Tx. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Ron Gray

[EarlyBird]

2 hours ago, Rich Griff said:

That orange radiolink tx had way tooooooooooooo many switches !

This is the least number of switches that I could find.

FrSky Taranis X9 Lite 2.4ghz Transmitter (t9hobbysport.com)

 

Steve

[Rich Griff]

Thanks you gents, some more research to do.

 

Much appreciated.

[Rich Griff]

Thanks for the heads up about T9hobbysport.com  Steve, thanks.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I hadn't had any experience of these small stabilised models but I was asked to test fly half a dozen different ones including the bf109 earlier today (Thursday) which had been linked to a Radiomaster multi protocol radio (using V761 protocol).  This might be a viable solution to operating them on Mode 1 with the confidence of non-conflicting muscle memory as all trims and switches can be assigned by the user.

[leccyflyer]

That's encouraging to hear. I'd read that whilst folks had successfully bound the Volantex/Sonik RC and Eachine warbirds to Radiomaster transmitters, there was an issue with the TopRC systems being somewhat different and not compatible.

 

Did the telemetry work okay? It would be interesting to know whether it provided a constant data stream of battery voltage data, or just sent the low voltage signal when it fell below a certain level.

[Ron Gray]

Has the Top Rc Rx got a telemetry Rx then? I’m pretty sure my Eachine Corsair hasn’t as I don’t get telemetry feedback when using my Jumper Tx.

[leccyflyer]

My Volantex/Eachine and Sonik RC 400mm warbirds all have low voltage telemetry - the TX beeps at you when the battery is nearly spent and continues to beep until the battery is disconnected. I'm not 100% sure about my TopRC FW190. I'm also assuming that it's telemetry, rather than a simple timer, as it doesn't go off at the same time and we've had some very long flights at very low throttle settings in calm air before the Bingo-Bingo fuel warning activates.

[leccyflyer]

Also, when 4-6 of us have a mass launch, our Bingo fuel state warnings come on at very different times, depending on how much emergency war power each of us have been using in our dogfighting or formation flying 🙂

[Rich Griff]

Hi Martin,

 

Am I correct in reading your last post ( Friday at 00:41 ) that the toprc 450mm wing span bf109 had successfully been operated and flown using a radiomaster tx, instructing the toprc's bf109 standard oe Rx to fly mode 1 ?

 

Is this correct please ?