The Big Question ?

[RICHARD WILLS]

I have been chatting to a few friends on the trade side of the counter recently . The question they are generally asking is :whats going to happen next ?

A few years ago , you will all remember Hobbyking bursting onto the scene . An interesting shake up of the industry happened following that debut . Some good , some bad .( IMHO)

The good was that a lot of pretty exciting artfs became available at great prices. The bad , was that a portion of the traders in this country lost their customers and many shops got bypassed in favour of "click and deliver " . Such is life . We can see that on any high street in the "real world" outside of our own microcosm . 

It would appear now that HK have withdrawn from Europe , which leaves us with the next largest equivalent perhaps being Motion RC in central Europe . 

A few years ago , you could buy a typical 1400-1500 mm ARTF Foam fighter for around £250 . Now we are looking at more like £370 plus vat and post from abroad . 

Still reasonable value , you could argue . Though definitely not in line with inflation .The Fliteline Spitfire is a beauty and flies very well . But they are made of foam , so longevity is not going to great . Well , not in the original pristine form . 

In the mean time , most of the British trade has avoided launching new products , simply because the market doesnt look strong enough to support the development cost . 

So there is the big question . If people are now expected to pay perhaps £370 + maybe another £80 in vat and post for a foamie , is there room for home grown kits using all of the latest technology available ? 

I realise there is a big difference in the chap that might buy a Flightline Spitfire and one that might buy a Brian Taylor style, quality Balsa Kit with all of the scale detail included and a seamless build . Numbers would also play a part , of course .   (I use Brian as an example because we all know if you want it to look right , refer to Brian !)

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Is there room for home grown kits ? Absolutely.

Who would take the risk these days is another matter, modern shopper (IMO) would desert you at the drop of an hat (Free postage) and lecture you on your business model.

[Graham Bowers]

Might be worth expanding on the sentence "home grown kits using all of the latest technology available ?  " as it's somewhat open to interpretation.

 

I recently bought one of your traditional kits, and knew exactly what I was getting. Is what you're asking about now different?

 

Cheers

 

Graham

Edited August 14, 2023 by Graham Bowers

[Cuban8]

A resurgence of a major kit manufacturing industry in the UK and probably the USA  has two chances IMHO - no hope and Bob Hope! I guess the best that we'll see is fewer  operations producing a limited range of popular offerings and very specialist manufacturers addressing the high end and very costly market. 

Sarik seem to be doing OK with their MO and we do have a sprinkling of kit producers like SLEC, DB and a few others who serve a limited audience. No where near the choice of ARTFs now and a considered purchase rather than a cheap impulse buy on a whim. A quick mental sum of say a simple 60" ARTF sport aerobat, a new 60-80ish fourstroke engine along with servos and RX etc nothing particularly exotic - and we're looking at...............£650 - £700+? OK, somewhat less if you've already got much of the kit going spare, but you see my point?

Newer modellers may well be astonished at what we had thirty or forty years ago if they thumbed through back issues of RCM&E, RM, RC Model World and others to see the huge range and types of kits that were available. Large manufacturers and smaller 'cottage industry' types of which there were dozens.

I remember a UK manufacturer of ARTFs (mainly trainers and simple sport types IIRC) having a presence at many of the 1980s model shows - I can't recall their name but their models were expensive for the time and rather flimsy, being built down to a price and very simply covered. Somewhat of a curiosity. They soon  packed it in. Shortly afterwards we had the Far Eastern ARTFs that looked good (!) sold for next to nothing and put western manufacturers under intense pressure...........we are where we are now.

Hobby Drones? very rarely see one at either of my clubs, they seem to have had their crazy time now and are regarded as passe by many, it would appear. BTW, some fantastic professional drone footage of the British Superbike round at Thruxton at the weekend.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Cuban8

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

We have more Drone owners and flyers than ever, what has changed is the moaning about them.

[RICHARD WILLS]

45 minutes ago, Graham Bowers said:

Might be worth expanding on the sentence "home grown kits using all of the latest technology available ?  " as it's somewhat open to interpretation.

 

I recently bought one of your traditional kits, and knew exactly what I was getting. Is what you're asking about now different?

 

Cheers

 

Graham

Graham , 

              What I mean is that with 3D design and resin printing , you can produce a limited run of much higher fit and quality than before . Unfortunately that would come at a cost . However , without that option it looks the modelling public will be offered a very limited diet in the future . 

In principle, I agree with Cuban 8 about the British Trade making a come back . It cant happen . On the other hand , as John says , there is perhaps a small slice of the cake available of those modellers who still enjoy a good build and an outstanding outcome . But the journey must be better and the end result a little more impressive . Imagine how sad this great forum would be if entirely deprived of traditional builds ?  I think we got to a low point when reviews in magazines could only comment on the quality of hinges and wheels on the latest ARTF . Thats just not what modelling is about . It should be , creative , rewarding and in the case of scale , creating a meaningful illusion . 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I would love a choice of what we used to have, enjoyed the Warbird thread you lads did, but no FW190 so didn't join in.

I think there's a market for sports model/trainer kits and Short kits as well out there, but what do I know.

[kevin b]

11 minutes ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

I would love a choice of what we used to have, enjoyed the Warbird thread you lads did, but no FW190 so didn't join in.

I think there's a market for sports model/trainer kits and Short kits as well out there, but what do I know.

No FW 190 ?

Watch this space (in the foreseeable future).        FW 190 coming soon. 

[leccyflyer]

From the very interesting discussion that was on the forum on what makes a good kit I do think that there is likely a finite market for good quality kits, especially where those are enhanced by modern maufacturing techniques such as high quality 3D printing, laser or CNC cut wooden parts that actually fit and high quality materials.  The stumbling block for traditional kit building was the availability of good quality mouldings - canopies, cowls, scale details, which lots of kits were let down by flimsy ABS half shells that still needed a lot of work and were not robust.

 

The big challenge in setting such builds against the highest quality foamies and ARTFs is convincing modellers that they can achieve similar, or better, results by doing the finishing themselves. It's a bit of a block for many folks, is time consuming and it needs facilities that are sometimes not available. That is up against a foamie jet or warbird which is pretty much ready to go right out of the box and can be finished, looking superb and in the air next day, using a few basic tools and the kitchen table.

 

The differentators for the quality kit builder are such as -

 

a. individuality. If you can convince the clubman, as Alex W used to call the typical hobbyist, that he can achieve as good a finish, it can be a unique model, not the same as everyone else's. That can be a powerful motivator.

b. The variety range on offer - can be little modelled subjects but with appeal - Mosquitoes, Beaufighters, Hurricanes, Tempests, Whirlwinds - rather than yet another Spitfire, Bf109 or Mustang. That's depending on selling a moderate number of kits - low volume production, rather than attempting to sell many thousands.

c. Longevity - those lovely foamies do suffer more hangar rash than a traditional build and so can soon come to look a bit scruffy. That's okay for a model costing £150 and a likely short life expectancy - much less so when that foamie is costing to the north of £500.

d. The added benefit and enjoyment of an extended build period - best if measured in weeks, rather than in months initially - to add to the hobby is something that seems to be poking it's head above the parapet.

 

I think there's definitely room and an encouraging landscape for the producer of quality kits, as described - the average foamie warbird might look like £350-ish, but the really nice ones are typically much more than £500 and for multis and EDFs, you're often looking at £700-800.

 

Personally, with a large fleet of my favourite types of models, dominated by fun-fighter and slightly larger foamie and ARTF warbirds, accumulated due to that type of model better suiting my busy time-constrained lifestyle whilst working, coupled to a lack of workshop facilities, I'm just at the start of a complete switch around in modelling. I'm back to building with balsa, after a gap of maybe 20 years, am stocked up ready to be embarking on assaulting the kit mountain and hugely enjoying that deeper dive into model building. I still greatly enjoy flying my foamie warbirds, but I have also recaptured some of the joys of building from plans and kits again.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I have no illusions that I can turn a model out that others drool over, not really a concern though, just want my own creation to my specific needs. Would be nice if they left the hardware out for me, we all have our likes/dislikes and draws full of accumulated bits anyway, keeps price down a bit and makes stuff more affordable. Don't want much do I. 😁

[Jon H]

I think the comments about a new kit manufacturer having no hope are wide of the mark. Fokkerc in bulgaria have managed and seem to increase their range on an almost weekly basis. Most of their kits are 50cc class and in the £350+ price class. Clearly there is a market, but i suppose people are more inclined to build at the bigger sizes. In my experience the smaller foamy models are popular due to their convenience. I doubt a kit build model of those specs would sell. 

 

Certainly Richard and i have discussed many times in the past what size model would be ideal to produce. I think something in the 70-80 inch 120-180 4 stroke/20cc petrol/electric equivalent would be the most popular, but i base that mostly on the most popular engines i sell at Laser as well as my own preference for models that size. As always, everyone will have their own view point.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Agree on the 20cc size, big enough to be your pride n joy and not too big to be a pain to house/transport, two piece wing preferable.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Very good points Leccy ,

You comments are spot on . Especially the finishing . It really does put people off . That for me is the real stumbling block . You can probably get people to build if the build is quick and smooth. But most then hate doing the camouflage etc . 

A number of clubs have had a batch of funfighter building this year and the general feedback is that a lot of first timers (and old timers) were grinning from ear to ear . 

The joy of seeing your own creation in flight should not be underestimated . An ARTF is very good , we can all appreciate that . But its next doors dog , not quite like your own.

However , many of those builders ducked the war paint and went for sport style finish in solarfilm . Which speaks volumes . 

I wonder if something like the old model design Spitfire (sorry Leccy , point taken , just saying ) without retracts but bigger than a Funfighter could be pushed out in batches to clubs but with a supporting article on here that really majored on the finish but with no skill required . Rattle cans being the main tool ?

I know I can produce a stunner with this method and show others how to follow . 

That may open up the options for a bigger model to follow on . 

I'm not saying that I'm going to do anything yet , but I do think we should all consider that unless we are honest about the barriers and help those on the fence into the warm bath , then we could be left with nothing . 

[Jon H]

I was chatting with a friend recently about yellow aircraft. Not sure how many of us remember them from the 90's, but they did nice almost ARTF models around the 85-90inch span for WWII fighters as well as jets and whatever. 

 

The reason i mention them is i think they were 15-20 years ahead of their time. You were supplied a nice glass fuselage (very light) and pre veneered wings with all of the servo and retracts wells pre cut for you. All you needed to do was glue in some wooden bits, cover the wing and paint it. I am in the process of restoring one, Dave Tilbury has a thread on his masterpiece, but the point is i think they would sit well in the market today as a builders kit that is very quick to build. 

 

When it comes to paint, my biggest moan has always been fuel proofer. Or, as it usually is, not fuel proofer. most spray cans are enamel (guild etc) and its hard to find a decent fuel proofer to go over them without destroying them. I am testing some 2k clear as i mentioned in another thread. If this works then it makes the whole job so much easier. 

 

10 minutes ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

That may open up the options for a bigger model to follow on

 

I am having this debate with my boss at the moment. I want to offer a larger flat/v twin in the 400 size (vs our old 360). The boss wants to see how well the 310's sell. I pointed out that someone wanting a 400 will not buy a 310 so using 310 sales to justify the production of a bigger engine makes no sense. Its like ford deciding how many transit vans to make based upon sales of the fiesta. Different product for different people. I see it the same with a smaller fun fighter warbird as someone looking for a 20cc class model will simply ignore it. 

 

15 minutes ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

The joy of seeing your own creation in flight should not be underestimated . An ARTF is very good , we can all appreciate that . But its next doors dog , not quite like your own.

 

spot on 👍

[Eric Robson]

A fellow club member is preparing to paint a Mick Reeves Spitfire 74," span.  He has chosen Klass kote 2 part paint,  three colours required, cost around £150 + the cost of glassing and priming then markings making it an expensive finish. I know the average modeller will not want to spend a lot of time and money on a funfighter so why not cover with film, much easier to see, having said that one of our members done a PR Spitfire in blue film it was not easy to see on rare days when we had blue skies. On electric models I use B and Q tester pots custom mixed and very economical . It would be nice to see some more kits on the market made in this country but the economic situation is not good at the moment and a lot of people are having to cut back on spending.

[leccyflyer]

8 hours ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

Very good points Leccy ,

You comments are spot on . Especially the finishing . It really does put people off . That for me is the real stumbling block . You can probably get people to build if the build is quick and smooth. But most then hate doing the camouflage etc . 

A number of clubs have had a batch of funfighter building this year and the general feedback is that a lot of first timers (and old timers) were grinning from ear to ear . 

The joy of seeing your own creation in flight should not be underestimated . An ARTF is very good , we can all appreciate that . But its next doors dog , not quite like your own.

However , many of those builders ducked the war paint and went for sport style finish in solarfilm . Which speaks volumes . 

I wonder if something like the old model design Spitfire (sorry Leccy , point taken , just saying ) without retracts but bigger than a Funfighter could be pushed out in batches to clubs but with a supporting article on here that really majored on the finish but with no skill required . Rattle cans being the main tool ?

I know I can produce a stunner with this method and show others how to follow . 

That may open up the options for a bigger model to follow on . 

I'm not saying that I'm going to do anything yet , but I do think we should all consider that unless we are honest about the barriers and help those on the fence into the warm bath , then we could be left with nothing . 

Couple of things - the Model Designs/Balsacraft funfighters were ten years ahead of their time. Contrary to the oft-repeated popular myth they could be made to fly very well in the years before lipos were available, provided you didn't use the horrible Ripmax power train which was singularly unsuited to the model type - 8.4v sp600s with a 7 cell 8.4v NiCd pack was never going to work.  With 8 cells and a hot buggy motor they flew superbly. Later on, with lipos they became stunning performers for those without experience in electric flight, but by then they were off the market and only really available as remaining stock, or second hand sales.

 

A model a little larger - the size of your 55" span warbirds is the "sweet spot" for me - large enough to make operation from a grass field with retracts possible. Retracts are a major issue with smaller models and even the better grass fields, but the larger wheels of models that are that sort of size make them viable - just about. Such models are not the easiest to handlaunch IMO and dollies have their own problems. I think your idea of something like that, as a gateway entry into finishing a model in a convincing manner, is a great idea, but unless a subject is chosen which has a fixed undercarriage I think you are going to be still in the realm of sourcing effective, reliable retracts that will work on the typical grass field and with the variability in the landing skills of the target audience.

 

The bigger 80"+ span warbirds are desirable, but you have then automatically limited sales to those with sufficient transport facilities to get such models to the field. If you are lucky the average clubman will be able to get one in the car, but he won't be likely to be building two or three a year, as they will come with those restrictions on storage and transport.

 

Lastly anyone who covers a funfighter in glossy film in a completely hideous colour scheme, without paying even the slightest attention to what it is, should be subject to a drumhead court martial, have their covering iron broken over the officer's knee and be ceremonially drummed out of the Brownies. 😉 If what you have planned can save those poor souls from themselves, I'm all in favour.

[Trevor]

Leeccy wrote: "anyone who covers a funfighter in glossy film in a completely hideous colour scheme, without paying even the slightest attention to what it is, should be subject to a drumhead court martial, have their covering iron broken over the officer's knee and be ceremonially drummed out of the Brownies."

 

I'd better go into hiding straightaway then! 😀

[leccyflyer]

Actually Trevor, that's really nice and very well done. 🙂

[Eric Robson]

 

Brian, the fun fighters are exactly that, any resemblance to the real thing is purely coincidental. With a good paint job and details brought out they are good to practice finishing on. They do fly well and if someone wants to cover with film so be it at least it is a sale for Cambria models. I have the large 109e which is an excellent flier and fairly accurate and at £156 for a 65" span model is great value.

Richard's Warbirds are closer to scale and great flyers but having built a few and tried to interest our club members in them I have drawn a blank. Nobody wants to spend the time when they can buy off the shelf or second hand. The most popular plane in the club is the Ruckus, taking over from the Wot 4 and Acrowot. 

Jon, I don't know about 2k but I sprayed car acrylic on my Acrowot and it is not glow fuel proof, OK on my petrol models.

2 part Klass kote lacquer over a less expensive paint finish may work, they do matt satin and gloss.

 

[leccyflyer]

Eric - I hadn't realised that Cambrian's larger Bf109 was quite that size, I had it in my mind as being ca 55" span, so that's good to know. I need a 55" span Bf109E and haven't found one that I like yet. Just checked and the larger one is sold out at the moment. That's a decent price for a model that size, but I think it's 90's style construction, rather than the enhanced sort of kit that Richard is talking about. I picked up an unstarted Brian Taylor Bf190e plan pack, with all the wood, mouldings canopy etc for £50 at a swapmeet last year - it's quite an intricate build.

[Peter Miller]

 

"Leeccy wrote: "anyone who covers a funfighter in glossy film in a completely hideous colour scheme, without paying even the slightest attention to what it is, should be subject to a drumhead court martial, have their covering iron broken over the officer's knee and be ceremonially drummed out of the Brownies.""

 

I have complete and total disdain for anyone who builds a scale model and then does not use a scale colour scheme.

[leccyflyer]

I don't mind a bit of distain , provided it's around the exhausts and gun ports and provided it isn't overdone. 😉 

[leccyflyer]

10 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

I was chatting with a friend recently about yellow aircraft. Not sure how many of us remember them from the 90's, but they did nice almost ARTF models around the 85-90inch span for WWII fighters as well as jets and whatever. 

 

The reason i mention them is i think they were 15-20 years ahead of their time. You were supplied a nice glass fuselage (very light) and pre veneered wings with all of the servo and retracts wells pre cut for you. All you needed to do was glue in some wooden bits, cover the wing and paint it. I am in the process of restoring one, Dave Tilbury has a thread on his masterpiece, but the point is i think they would sit well in the market today as a builders kit that is very quick to build. 

 

When it comes to paint, my biggest moan has always been fuel proofer. Or, as it usually is, not fuel proofer. most spray cans are enamel (guild etc) and its hard to find a decent fuel proofer to go over them without destroying them. I am testing some 2k clear as i mentioned in another thread. If this works then it makes the whole job so much easier. 

 

 

I am having this debate with my boss at the moment. I want to offer a larger flat/v twin in the 400 size (vs our old 360). The boss wants to see how well the 310's sell. I pointed out that someone wanting a 400 will not buy a 310 so using 310 sales to justify the production of a bigger engine makes no sense. Its like ford deciding how many transit vans to make based upon sales of the fiesta. Different product for different people. I see it the same with a smaller fun fighter warbird as someone looking for a 20cc class model will simply ignore it. 

 

 

spot on 👍

I remember Yellow Aircraft kits and always perceived them as impossibly expensive and out of the reach of the average club modeller at the time, being suited more to a select few clubs operating from beautiful tarmac runways and with the members mostly flying larger scale models.  The sort of scale models that I was used to seeing were traditional style plan builds, of which the better builders in the club would produce one every winter, which would then be aired in the spring and have maybe half a dozen outings in the summer if it were lucky. The typical club members were flying Wot 4s, Acrowots, sports aerobats, Piper Cubs with perhaps an occasional Mick Reeves Spitfire - the foam wing with a straight leading edge variety - so very much Clubman scale types.

 

As pointed out above though there was a huge variety of small kit manufacturer produced semi-scale models available, you just didn't see a lot of them flying. I was gifted a Retlas Spitfire a couple of months back and it's a thing of beauty - as you say, just a few formers to be stuck inside a lovely fibreglass fuselage and a veneeered foam wing to be joined and prepared to accept retracts. It's  a big model - by my standards - but the question is how viable will it be to electrify with a workable number of cells, hence my looking at small petrol engines and coming up against a brick wall regarding silencers and especially silencers which fit entirely within a slender nose like a Spitfire Mk V.

[RICHARD WILLS]

Ha ! Ive got you all going now , lively and constructive debate . There is some great wit on this forum if you know where to look .  (disdain gag!) 

Plus Peter's "Branded " scenario (Who remembers that series ) . Joking aside though ,Trevor's Hurricane actually works because its not just what solarfilm he had under the bed ,its a believable scheme in the modern world of sponsorship . 

Leccy's summary is pretty much spot on . A lot of fields are not suitable for small models with retracts and if, like most people you fly mode two (madness of course and a heathen course straight to hell) , you will need a buddy to "get one up!"   (see what I did Brian ?) .

Is the answer a simple launching system of our own design to lob a 46-55" fighter up ? That would eliminate many concerns and allow us to concentrate on overcoming the finish issue . If we stick to electric to start with , the model can be launched cold from a plastic plumbing tube ramp like small edfs are . 

One or two launchers kept at a club site would be the best option . This allows people more room in the car .

Perhaps a winter build in each club of half a dozen simple larger fun fighters with experienced builders as guides ?

[Cuban8]

33 minutes ago, Peter Miller said:

 

"Leeccy wrote: "anyone who covers a funfighter in glossy film in a completely hideous colour scheme, without paying even the slightest attention to what it is, should be subject to a drumhead court martial, have their covering iron broken over the officer's knee and be ceremonially drummed out of the Brownies.""

 

I have complete and total disdain for anyone who builds a scale model and then does not use a scale colour scheme.

Not forgetting a Barbie (very topical) or Cindy doll's head for a pilot as well.