The Big Question ?

[leccyflyer]

If you were to do a kit for a model launching Trebuchet, Richard, put me down for two!

[Martin Dance 1]

I suspect one of the challenges facing anyone proposing to bring to market a model aircraft kit these days is distribution and stock levels. With few model shops around placing kits in front of customers is quite difficult. The other issue is stock levels, making a batch of kits is quite a risk you're tying up a lot of money with the risk of not at the end making a profit.

Interestingly in another thread there is quite alot of interest in the old Flair line of kits. Perhaps the way forward with this and any new offering is kits which are made to order. You want a Magnatilla or a new offering warbird say an MB5, you place an order and the kit is produced by the manufacturer and sent to you as in any mail order transaction. This would reduce the manufactuers financial exposure, the customer gets a high quality product. The potential downside could be the risk of extended delivery times which might not suit the 'I want it now' generation.

[leccyflyer]

Good points Martin. 🙂

 

Looking at the Made To Order option, I'd imagine that's how the likes of Sarik and Belair approach their plan packs. As the main parts are laser/CNC cut, you wouldn't need to have loads of already pre-cut kits in storage all the time. Add in Richard's idea for 3D printed parts and the capability of producing wither very short kit runs, or bespoke one off kits becomes a workable model. If you could give a delivery time to the modeller of a week or two then that would allow you to compete favourably, in terms of delivery time, with the things coming from the Far East, as at least one of the major online retailers has completely abandoned the UK and there's really only Motion RC, which again, takes at least a week to deliver.

 

Delivery time isn't going to need to be next day for someone contemplating a build of at least a few weeks and I think this is where the tipping point comes. You'll be more likely to encourage folks to try building their own scale model if the completion is measured in weeks rather than months. The market for a winter build project taking four months to complete is going to be a very different market to those who want a four week turnaround. I think the latter is Richard's target market for the type of kits he's postulating might be viable to relaunch UK kit manufacture.

[Eric Robson]

I made a Seafury from balsa and depron with retracts, I take off as normal then belly land, ideal with the Seafury as the underside has no radiators. The only time I land on the wheels is when the grass is very short and dry. This way eliminates dollies and helpers.

It works for me.

[Jon H]

11 hours ago, Eric Robson said:

He has chosen Klass kote 2 part paint,  three colours required, cost around £150 + the cost of glassing and priming then markings making it an expensive finish

 

Totally agree. This is why i am looking at using inexpensive epoxy from amazon (same price as modelling epoxy for 3 times the amount), inexpensive enamels (guild, humbrol etc) and covering with an automotive 2k clear which is only 22 quid for 750ml (half the price for 3 times the amount of KK). Klass kote is very good but its also expensive. If there is the opportunity to use an enamel rattle can, and then airbrush over some 2k clear it saves cost and makes a spray finish easier as well. 

 

3 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

The bigger 80"+ span warbirds are desirable, but you have then automatically limited sales to those with sufficient transport facilities to get such models to the field. If you are lucky the average clubman will be able to get one in the car, but he won't be likely to be building two or three a year, as they will come with those restrictions on storage and transport.

 

I have a normal vw golf/ford focus size car and can fit any of my 80-90 inch warbirds, asn 82 inch 1/4 stampe and a sport model in it all at the same time. I often hear complaints about transporting large models and i cant see the issue. Storage at home? yea ok they take up some room. But i have 4 80-90 inch warbirds, 3 75-80 inch sport models and my 1/4 stampe all stored in a space approx 1.8x1.4m. Its tight, and inconvenient if i want to get to the model at the back, but its works well enough. SO with transport and storage questions eliminated as hurdles and sufficient power plants available for glow, petrol and electric i dont see the issue with the bigger model. 

 

As for the building rate, i guess it depends how often you crash! 

 

1 hour ago, Eric Robson said:

Jon, I don't know about 2k but I sprayed car acrylic on my Acrowot and it is not glow fuel proof, OK on my petrol models.

 

The 2k i am looking at is a 2pack with catalyst. Its very similar to KK and oracover 2k paints so i have high hopes. 

 

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

I remember Yellow Aircraft kits and always perceived them as impossibly expensive and out of the reach of the average club modeller at the time, being suited more to a select few clubs operating from beautiful tarmac runways and with the members mostly flying larger scale models.

 

In the 90's they were very expensive, £550 for the bare airframe sort of thing. This was partly due to the import costs as they were about the same in USD with an exchange of what, 1.8 back then? But These days, that would be a great price and even if they were a little more, i still think there would be a market for them when you see black horse ARTF's at over a grand. They would be far better quality than the BH and seagull models that is for sure. 

As for the perception that they were out of reach a yellow spitfire (the one i now own) was actually the 2nd warbird i ever flew. The first was Richards Hurricane, and i was shocked by how easy to fly the bigger model was. My Pica 88 inch Spit was the same, my DB Hurricane is on rails. Certainly i think that anyone proficient with an acrowot would be able to handle a Yellow Spit with a minimum of practice and training. Yes you cant land them on a ploughed field, but that is true of any model with retracts and bigger models with bigger wheels and oleos are more able to absorb a few lumps and bumps. 

 

1 hour ago, leccyflyer said:

hence my looking at small petrol engines and coming up against a brick wall regarding silencers and especially silencers which fit entirely within a slender nose like a Spitfire Mk V.

 

Stick a laser in it 😉

 

 

 

[Cuban8]

1 hour ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

Ha ! Ive got you all going now , lively and constructive debate . There is some great wit on this forum if you know where to look .  (disdain gag!) 

Plus Peter's "Branded " scenario (Who remembers that series ) . Joking aside though ,Trevor's Hurricane actually works because its not just what solarfilm he had under the bed ,its a believable scheme in the modern world of sponsorship . 

Leccy's summary is pretty much spot on . A lot of fields are not suitable for small models with retracts and if, like most people you fly mode two (madness of course and a heathen course straight to hell) , you will need a buddy to "get one up!"   (see what I did Brian ?) .

Is the answer a simple launching system of our own design to lob a 46-55" fighter up ? That would eliminate many concerns and allow us to concentrate on overcoming the finish issue . If we stick to electric to start with , the model can be launched cold from a plastic plumbing tube ramp like small edfs are . 

One or two launchers kept at a club site would be the best option . This allows people more room in the car .

Perhaps a winter build in each club of half a dozen simple larger fun fighters with experienced builders as guides ?

'Branded' in case we have any young folks here............................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Mnp6VAmEc

[Peter Miller]

And don't even mention Snoopy!!!!

Sorry Graham!

[Robin Colbourne]

3 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

Not forgetting a Barbie (very topical) or Cindy doll's head for a pilot as well.

The Air Transport Auxiliary and the American Women's Air Service Pilots must have had a few Barbaras, Lucindas and Cynthias, so not totally unscale. 😄

[dave parnham]

Hobby king are back in europe .

[Andy Meade]

🤨 steering somewhere back on topic...

 

I think there is a market in the right areas.  The PSSA mass build kits always sell well around the world...when new plans of something interesting are released, there's always takers.  I offered a short run of short kits for the old LMC Hawk, and nearly had my hand taken off. 

 

I think in the right areas, the right model that's well proven, will do well.  Production runs would need to be kept  low to minimize risk, but even with a higher price I think there are still enough modellers interested out there.

 

[dave parnham]

Fast forward the first 3mins

 

[Robin Colbourne]

Perhaps the solution to the scale finishing issue lies in getting something like a car wrap pre-printed.  It might seem expensive for a one off, but once the hours of labour and cost of materials for conventional methods are considered, it might work.
In theory, if the files are kept, repair panels could be printed too.

 

[kc]

The cheap (at one time!) ARTF seemed to kill off the British ' plan pack' makers - semi kits with veneered foam wings.    Hot wire cut veneered foam wings are now expensive  - cost of materials or health & safety fume issues probably.  Presumably the moulded foam wings we see now are cheap to produce once the mould has been made.  

 

What about a standard moulded wing which could have various different wing tips added or even clipped to produce several different sports models?   Years ago somebody in the USA made standard type of veneered foam wing ( Ace perhaps?) which could make various models.    Maybe a Mustang wing could be moulded and also used in other sports designs with balsa fuselages?

[Graham Bowers]

4 hours ago, leccyflyer said:

If you were to do a kit for a model launching Trebuchet, Richard, put me down for two!

Ours is called Kevin 😉

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

46 minutes ago, Andy Meade said:

🤨 steering somewhere back on topic...  I offered a short run of short kits for the old LMC Hawk, and nearly had my hand taken off. 

 

 

 

I have had all of them my best planes ever, I still have a Super natty, a couple of Mirage 2000 fuselages and a pair of hawk wings, and the F 4 fuselage mould.

[Andy Meade]

I've got the Gnatty moulds as well, not done anything with those yet.  Good to know the F4 mould is out there too.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Any teasers of the model in mind Richard ?

[Nigel R]

Don't knock us film cover-ers.

 

I have neither facilities (space for booth, even temporary) nor a family environment (time, etc) to spray.

 

Whereas, film i can do a panel an evening over many evenings.

 

It might not be the most durable but it works well enough for long enough when a bit of care is taken around the oily bits.

 

Seems a fraction of the cost of klasskote too. Not sure how it compare to Jon's approach of guild enamel plus 2k clear. Maybe more comparable, especially now the cheap film has vanished. 

[leccyflyer]

4 hours ago, Cuban8 said:

'Branded' in case we have any young folks here............................https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Mnp6VAmEc

Chuck Connors - brilliant series and that is indeed what I was referring to.

 

Interesting bit of trivia - the second biggest BMFA insurance claim ever was related to an incident with a Chuck Connors. The first officer who tried to break his sword over his knee got a wee bit  confused and cut his leg off ....;)

[Graham Davies 3]

4 hours ago, Peter Miller said:

And don't even mention Snoopy!!!!

Sorry Graham!

None taken!

 

Given that Snoopy pilots an ME109 that looks like someone has inflated it, I think there are bigger issues for the scale police...

 

😉

 

[David Davis 2]

Small scale BoB Hurricane or Spitfire?

 

Brown paper covering, brown and green paint, a little stippling where the two colours meet, that'll do for me!

 

 

 

 

[martin collins 1]

3 minutes ago, David Davis 2 said:

Small scale BoB Hurricane or Spitfire?

 

Brown paper covering, brown and green paint, a little stippling where the two colours meet, that'll do for me!

 

 

 

 

Any size 109 would get my hand up, whilst the RAF stuff is nice i prefer the colour and variety of the schemes used on the 109. If someone were to produce a few B of B kits that were a quickish builds and didn`t cost an arm and leg to complete it would be great as this winters mass build!

[RICHARD WILLS]

All good comments chaps . There are a few painting options . Brush painting emulsion is low smell and cheap and I could show people how to get a pretty realistic finish . 

I also wonder if i could get skins printed as suggested . Anyone that has seen our spitfire manual will know we have excellent connections in that field . A clear varnish would be required of course . 

The other big question is why not just continue with the excellent fun fighter range ? My answer would be , well , we could as they are good and available . But they are slightly biased toward the speed end of the spectrum so , perhaps a bigger and lighter load would give us old buffers more chance of getting up and down at a ,more sedate pace . Bigger and slower is also easier to see on a gloomy day (and havent we had a few !) 

Regarding subjects John , the best format for mass build is a fighting pair . Which of course complicates the whole issue . But on the other hand if you twice as many involved then it's worth it . 

Classic pairs might be 109 /Spit    190/ P51      Mig 15 /Sabre    Tempest/190D

Fast Build with minimal parts count with an emphasis on practicality .  46 " on 3s or 55" on 4s . 

As previously suggested , the PSS Sabre Build went well last year . 

Personally , I think the only way it would work is to nominate a "Squadron Leader " in each club that wants to participate . 

[martin collins 1]

I like your thinking Richard, most people who fly electric have 3 and 4s packs, my Cambrian Funfighter flies fast on a 3s 2200mah pack and they are available at a very reasonable price, the emulsion tester pots from B&Q are cheap and they will mix any shade/colour you want if you have a sample colour, they simply scan it and mix. I like the idea of hand launch or fixed gear, retracts add work, cost and added complications. A slightly larger lighter airframe is a great idea, i can get cheap reliable small servos from my local model shop for around £5 a pop. Low cost gear and finishing techniques will surely tempt more people to join in.

[RICHARD WILLS]

So it looks like this is the point in the thread where as usual we hit a brick wall . As Cuban 8 said in one of the first posts , the chance of a British manufacturing come back is a forlorn hope . 

What happens with this type of exploratory thread is that everyone stays interested while there is chance of their dream model kit appearing . But as various sizes and propulsion systems are discussed , the fallout starts .

The kit manufacturer then realises he is down to a handful of potential kits and pulls the rip cord . 

My guess is that there only to ways forward . First one is to pick a fairly popular subject and do a Platinum Edition which has every conceivable detail and looks and flies better than any competition . New design and manufacture could make that possible . 

There would be a short financial return , but big development cost . Overall though , it wont change the background . 

Second Option is to go backward before going forward . Quick simple and cheap kits . That does also need some ownership from existing scale builders . 

That would involve group builds in clubs in the winter . Again , risky from the manufacturing side , because the profit margin must be set very low to increase access to all . 

If existing builders want more options , then new blood must be encouraged and aided in order that the British manufacturers can get their numbers up . 

The long view is much better with option two. 

Plus , who is more likely to listen to your future wants and needs ? Home grown Manufacturers who are modellers with the same background or somebody half way round the world ?