The Big Question ?

[David perry 1]

Maybe the golden age of ludicrously scale club hacks has finally ended?  Nonone needs to fly a spitfire with the detail we have come to expect.  I had as much fun...more maybe...with my old foxjet.    Perhaps its a return to "proper"  aeromodelling that is about to begin.  

[Ron Gray]

A very interesting thread, albeit circling round to previous, similar discussions. My take, for what it's worth - I've built, am building, still to build several WR kits and can attest to how easy they are to build, finish and fly but that is me! I've built many models over the years, scratch built, from plans and cut parts, ARTFs, foamies so putting together a few sheets of balsa and assembling veneered foam wings isn't an issue plus I rather enjoy the finishing aspect too. Now when I look at my fellow club members there are very few who want to bother to do the same thing, even those with experience are really after a quick win and there are some who only want something they can bolt together and then fly, because, for them, it's the flying not the assembly that give them the fun. That is why the foamies have been so successful, it doesn't matter that they are basically ceiling tiles that have been painted, they bolt together with little effort and they fly, rather well in a lot of cases. Those same people are now quite prepared to pay £500+ for a 'decent' scale foamy but would baulk at anything that requires glue and paint! I believe that this scenario is not just limited to the 2 clubs that I belong to, it's probably the same throughout the country.

 

So where does that leave us, a small number of die hard modelling (not just flying) enthusiasts happy to 'throw together' a prefab kit, but we will be in the minority.

 

As a matter of interest, I introduced a 'mass build' at the beginning of this year for a Depron Hanky Planky, the idea being to get as many club members to build them and to enter into light hearted competitions but above all else to have fun. 20 club members have built these models which I kitted (I laser cut the Depron and provided the motor all for the grand sum of £30). Even then, with the simplistic nature of the build there were at least 6 members who didn't like the build process!

 

Then I look to my models that I fly and see where the interest is from other club members, most definitely top of the list are the ESM P51 (Laser in line twin 160), the ESM Hurricane (Laser 200 in line twin) and the Goat Revolver (Laser 310 flat twin), when I fly any of those models fellow members stop and watch them flying but would they build them - NO!

 

Goodness knows what all this means apart from, imo any scale model now produced in the Funfighter / 1500mm wingspan size will have a great appeal but to a very limited number!

 

Waffle, waffle, waffle - I'll stop now!

Edited August 16, 2023 by Ron Gray

[martin collins 1]

Would something along the lines of the Ron`s Hanky Planky Foamy Woamy but adapted for scalish looking Warbirds be the way to go? Cheap to produce for a manufacturer, cheap to buy for the punter with inexpensive gear installed, 3s 2200mah lipo, hand launch. They could be finished in a number of ways, emulsion painted, brown paper/PVA, laminating film etc. As long as they looked sorta scale, quick to build there may be a market, i will have a chat to the guys at my field, i will be seeing 7 or 8 of them tomorrow and will gauge the interest in something like that. At what that may be sold at i may buy one of each model, suggest a Spit and a 109, we all like to fly something other than the usually offered aircraft but if you are looking at dragging a larger quantity of club builders who could put one together in less than a week of evenings those would be the best sellers IMHO. Here is a link to Ron`s build to give an iddea of the construction method. 

 

[martin collins 1]

Ha ha, as i type it Ron chips in!

 

[Ron Gray]

Going on from the year's Hanky Planky Wacky Races, I'm now thinking ahead to next year and the type of model for that. My thoughts are along the lines of a STOL type model, so high wing with big wheels as this will introduce a new type of competition. But in doing this it has got to be cheap, disposable (fixable) and easy to build. Trouble is, if you scale this up to models in this thread then you're having to compete with the like of the brilliant (I have one!) Fly Tasman (£200).

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, RICHARD WILLS said:

So it looks like this is the point in the thread where as usual we hit a brick wall . As Cuban 8 said in one of the first posts , the chance of a British manufacturing come back is a forlorn hope . 

What happens with this type of exploratory thread is that everyone stays interested while there is chance of their dream model kit appearing . But as various sizes and propulsion systems are discussed , the fallout starts .

The kit manufacturer then realises he is down to a handful of potential kits and pulls the rip cord . 

My guess is that there only to ways forward . First one is to pick a fairly popular subject and do a Platinum Edition which has every conceivable detail and looks and flies better than any competition . New design and manufacture could make that possible . 

There would be a short financial return , but big development cost . Overall though , it wont change the background . 

Second Option is to go backward before going forward . Quick simple and cheap kits . That does also need some ownership from existing scale builders . 

That would involve group builds in clubs in the winter . Again , risky from the manufacturing side , because the profit margin must be set very low to increase access to all . 

If existing builders want more options , then new blood must be encouraged and aided in order that the British manufacturers can get their numbers up . 

The long view is much better with option two. 

Plus , who is more likely to listen to your future wants and needs ? Home grown Manufacturers who are modellers with the same background or somebody half way round the world ?

Don't underestimate Option #2 in the impact it can have. Material costs are expensive now and the learned skill set of quantifying, sourcing and selecting good quality materials for the job is possibly missing half a generation, due to the rapid rise of the readily available ARTFs, which provided everything in the box, though often of dubious quality. I think your own previously available kits hit that sweetspot right in the centre of the bullseye, but with top quality materials. Plan builds are grand, but the average clubman might struggle to track down and obtain the correct materials, without falling short of having a lot of left overs for the scrap box. That's where the provision of such a kit reaps benefits, because it's being collated by a knowledgeable modeller. It's then about getting across that hurdle we spoke of earlier - that of persuading the average model flier that they can produce a good finish on a scale model, without spending a fortune on fancy equipment. Providing some of those nice 3D printed accessories, to lift these simple kits to another level, is something which might keep the existing scale bods happy customers.

 

The PSSA Mass Builds succeed because they have an end product - everyone who takes part, learning along the way, can look forward to an event to air their creation and mix it up with other kindred spirits, I reckon that could be a very effective marketing tool for those Option #2 offerings - possibly less so with the Platinum edition kits, which will take longer to build and therefore have an extended period over which those examples trickle out of the workshops. Option #1 would be like the US factories churning out thousands of P-51s on an assembly line in a matter of days, whilst option #2 would be like  a few Me262.s emerging, blinking, into the sunlight in small numbers, spread over time - very nice, but ultimately without sufficient numbers to make an impact. Anyway, in this case, to paraphrase AVM Park -"You're not getting 50, you're not even getting 10".

[leccyflyer]

1 hour ago, martin collins 1 said:

Would something along the lines of the Ron`s Hanky Planky Foamy Woamy but adapted for scalish looking Warbirds be the way to go? Cheap to produce for a manufacturer, cheap to buy for the punter with inexpensive gear installed, 3s 2200mah lipo, hand launch. They could be finished in a number of ways, emulsion painted, brown paper/PVA, laminating film etc. As long as they looked sorta scale, quick to build there may be a market, i will have a chat to the guys at my field, i will be seeing 7 or 8 of them tomorrow and will gauge the interest in something like that. At what that may be sold at i may buy one of each model, suggest a Spit and a 109, we all like to fly something other than the usually offered aircraft but if you are looking at dragging a larger quantity of club builders who could put one together in less than a week of evenings those would be the best sellers IMHO. Here is a link to Ron`s build to give an iddea of the construction method. 

 

Laminating film could be the game changer here, in persuading folks that they can finish their models nicely. Mind you this is assuming that it does work as a base for paint, which I have yet to test. In terms of ease of use and costs it's fantastic - I've used one of the first sample sets that I had from Ron and it has been so good - the finish with tissue is quite superb - that I just took delivery of a 150m roll for £21 last week, Maybe a BMFA ITAT webinar/demo showing how great the material is would be informative - though, again, you're only actually reaching a relatively small number of folks, possibly less than 200 or so.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

1 minute ago, leccyflyer said:

Laminating film could be the game changer here, in persuading folks that they can finish their models nicely. Mind you this is assuming that it does work as a base for paint, which I have yet to test. In terms of ease of use and costs it's fantastic - I've used one of the first sample sets that I had from Ron and it has been so good - the finish with tissue is quite superb - that I just took delivery of a 150m roll for £21 last week, Maybe a BMFA ITAT webinar/demo showing how great the material is would be informative - though, again, you're only actually reaching a relatively small number of folks, possibly less than 200 or so.

Any chance of a thread on this laminating film, applying it etc, and some addresses to get it from ?.

[martin collins 1]

Interesting leccyfyer, i have been offered a table at the Model Builders show to show the use of foam board and depron to make light cheap models using these easily available materials, maybe a similar one on the next table could show the use of laminating film. I haven`t tried that yet but would be very interested to see how it is done, maybe speak to Manny at the BMFA about it. I believe people will be surprised at what can be done on a low budget with these materials.

[leccyflyer]

6 minutes ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Any chance of a thread on this laminating film, applying it etc, and some addresses to get it from ?.

 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Option two looks good to me, the Worlds bigger than this forum as well, a lot of builders at my club and I would think plenty at others. Any forum our club has, would be only too happy to advertise on your behalf should something come of this thread.

[RedBaron]

I may have missed it in this thread but I don't believe that anyone mentioned https://www.englishelectricmodels.co.uk/jets/

These model kits are superb

High Quality 3D design

Light weight but strong structures

Brilliant laser cut parts

What else does one need?

EnglishElectric Models shows that British kits are not dead it just needs a few more visionaries to follow the lead

Tony Nijhuis has an enormous range of kits, but some of the older ones would benefit with a design rework using latest design tools

[Ron Gray]

This was my original thread on Lam film

 

 

[leccyflyer]

Not sure whether I'd heard of English Electric Models - if I have, then I don't recall looking at them too closely. Small, built up balsa EDFs are very niche indeed, in terms of target audience, but they do look to provide an alternative to the TN free plan builds in the RCM&E, so worth a look. Most of the EDFs in the clubs that I'm a member of are foamies, with quite a few depron built up EDFs and a smaller number of balsa birds.

[Ron Gray]

I agree Brian, I do r recall seeing a TN plan built EDF or for that matter any balsa based ones but there are a shed load of foam ones, some of which are circa £1K! Just look at the new Lancer from XFly @ £700!

[leccyflyer]

I picked up a 50mm TN Gnat and Jet Provost at our club swapmeet a few months back - haven't had a successful flight with either yet -  and my pal Jim successfully flew his 50mm TN-designed Panther within two weeks of the magazine hitting the shelves last month and I expect he'll have the follow up Cougar ready to go by the end of this month. 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

I just whizzed through your Thread Ron, I will see if I can find some this autumn and have a go at recovering my Hurricane ( VQ balsa )

what thickness would you recommend, it has an OS .90 four stroke in it ?.

 

thanks, Paul

[Ron Gray]

38 micro Paul, there is no need to go for anything thicker, even on 2m+ models with open frames! Same rules apply as for 'normal' covering films apart from the heat, tack at circa 100º, shrink at circa 150º. Note that it doesn't shrink / stretch quite as much either. 

[Graham Davies 3]

4 hours ago, martin collins 1 said:

Would something along the lines of the Ron`s Hanky Planky Foamy Woamy but adapted for scalish looking Warbirds be the way to go? Cheap to produce for a manufacturer, cheap to buy for the punter with inexpensive gear installed, 3s 2200mah lipo, hand launch. They could be finished in a number of ways, emulsion painted, brown paper/PVA, laminating film etc. As long as they looked sorta scale, quick to build there may be a market, i will have a chat to the guys at my field, i will be seeing 7 or 8 of them tomorrow and will gauge the interest in something like that. At what that may be sold at i may buy one of each model, suggest a Spit and a 109, we all like to fly something other than the usually offered aircraft but if you are looking at dragging a larger quantity of club builders who could put one together in less than a week of evenings those would be the best sellers IMHO. Here is a link to Ron`s build to give an iddea of the construction method. 

 

I'm a total convert to these modelling materials and techniques. I have developed my techniques to the point that I am making models that look similar to my own more traditional models, fly well, build easily and are dirt cheap. 

 

BUT...

 

Whilst my club mates are supportive and generally are impressed by what can be achieved, none have so far been tempted to have a go. That's fine, but I suspect it indicates that this route is also too 'niche' to offer a route to a commercial kit.

 

From Richard's point of view, he is hoist by his own petard. He introduced me to these possibilities, and now I can't see much to be gained in buying a kit of any sort!

 

Graham

[Ron Gray]

I suspect that if there was a 'bolt together' WR type model that just needed servos, esc, motor (and radio) installed and left to the modeller to cover / paint then that would sell. So veneered foam cored wing and fuse, sheet tail (or even veneered foam cored for those too). All 'fancy' bits 3D printed / vac formed.

[Flying Squirrel]

WR?

 

[leccyflyer]

Warbirds Replicas.

[Mr Fro]

I'm somewhat of an outsider being as I inherited a number of planes from my late father-in-law. They're essentially new as in not flown and "in time" I'll get them all put together to sell. However, I'm an engineer and like tiddling about with stuff like that so it shouldn't be an issue building them. Also however, like his cars and boats that I built and sold, I'd like to give them a test before handing them on. This last bit is a problem as (from the perspective of someone who hasn't flown a model before) it's silly difficult to do so.

 

Every club a I've contacted gives me the "You don't know what you're doing, you'll crash, even by building them you'll kill a million babies" speach which is a bit off-putting. I even got a lecture from the bloke in the model shop who told me a I was definitely going to chop my arm off with a prop (I only went in to buy some fuel).

 

This apparent barrier to entry I think puts off a great deal of people. Therefore the liklihood of someone casually buying a plane to give it a go is likely to be low. Furthermore, the likelihood of someone dropping a grand on something they have to spend weeks building is vanishingly small.

 

Yes it would be possible for an enterprising individual to design (or license) a model with a view to generating a production run. That person has to have the kit to either volume produce a skeleton, assemble it & cover it or make up some moulds / formers in order to blow polystyrene / vacuum form / lay up the structural components.

 

All doable but then, as is evident on this thread, different people want different things so said individual is suddenly in for a good bit of investment to service a rather small market. That is unless they produce only a few designs to make them affordable or make everything bespoke in which case things become expensive for the end user.

 

I'm very much in favour of people being able to give stuff a go and I think that if clubs were a bit more open to outsiders coming along to crash a couple of hundred quid worth of their hard earned then there might be a bit more take up of the hobby, thus greater market potential and more players in the market.

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

quote,

Every club a I've contacted gives me the "You don't know what you're doing, you'll crash, even by building them you'll kill a million babies" speach which is a bit off-putting. I even got a lecture from the bloke in the model shop who told me a I was definitely going to chop my arm off with a prop (I only went in to buy some fuel).

 

 Where on earth do you live,  do you look like a Cyclops,,,😄

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

Found it, 25€ the 15 metres, thanks Ron,,,

 

 

https://www.intermodel.fr/film-entoilage-decoration/8219-film-de-lamination-38-transparent-15m-intermodel-epp-film-transparent-laminer-lamination-38-38micron-38-micron.html

Edited August 16, 2023 by Paul De Tourtoulon