Speed limits in Wales

[Don Fry]

Might I suggest the man years of shortened lives, and lives crippled by the accidents get put into the equation. I realise they are lesser things, peasants, cyclists, children, but still worth a mention.

[Zflyer]

Don i appreciate your earlier career, but in all things, parked cars, mechanical failure, wayward chidlren and dogs also cause accidents. Movement will always cause damage injury and death. Like all rhings stats dont reveal the truth of the situation unless queried properly. Again we loose sight of any benefit without well constructed data and honest analysis

Edited September 26, 2023 by Zflyer

[Don Fry]

Z flyer, I was following on from Jon Lee, post above mine, who commented on the man hours wasted in longer journey times. I was trying to put into his data the counterbalancing data. Again, I will also point out, I have no lowest common denominator about the stupidity of dogs, children and drunks. But some of us are licensed to drive, passed a test, to take on the roads a dangerous tool. Use it with the care to use a chainsaw. Also, I might suggest, what would we say, lorry drivers survive, why stop at junctions and roundabouts, I’m all right jack. 

[FlyinFlynn]

On 25/09/2023 at 11:07, Nigel R said:

20mph in busy pedestrian zones is perfectly ok - your average travel speed in this kind of road is usually fairly slow anyway.

 

British Medical Journal (not usually known for lying about stuff) quote research from Imperial College (also not usually known for lying about stuff) stating that emissions are overall improved in busy areas when a 20mph limit is imposed.

 

 

Are you having a laugh Nigel?... These are the people so reliant on 'computer modelling' that gave us the worst excesses of the covid era... I will guarantee you that their 'research' in this regard is pure codswallop if it did in fact claim emissions are reduced when a 20 limit is imposed. There are several posts above indicating drivers are finding they are dropping a gear to maintain 20mph, how can this possibly result in 'lower emissions' when the engine is revolving more per meter travelled? The ONLY benefit of reducing the speed limit will be the reduction in severity of RTA collisions (which, in itself, is a laudable outcome).

[Tim Kearsley]

10 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said:

Are you having a laugh Nigel?... These are the people so reliant on 'computer modelling' that gave us the worst excesses of the covid era... I will guarantee you that their 'research' in this regard is pure codswallop if it did in fact claim emissions are reduced when a 20 limit is imposed.

I'm just intrigued to know how you are so knowledgeable that you can make statements like that. 

 

Some research

Edited September 26, 2023 by Tim Kearsley

[Nigel R]

2 hours ago, FlyinFlynn said:

I will guarantee you that their 'research' in this regard is pure codswallop

 

You're claiming the findings of a world beating higher education and research establishment are 'pure codswallop' ?

 

 

[Tim Kearsley]

43 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

 

You're claiming the findings of a world beating higher education and research establishment are 'pure codswallop' ?

 

 

Well said!

[ron evans]

I'm no fan of the Welsh Assembly, but if you look for someone to blame for the introduction of this limit, then I believe it's the idiot drivers who won't stick to speed limits.

 

The stretch of road I live on is all down hill and was a 30 limit. Some years ago the council did  a fortnight speed survey, it showed most drivers over the 30 and 50% over 40 with speeds up to 80 mph. Two deaths and numerous serious accidents on this road in the last 10 ten years, if the idiots had been doing 30mph they would probably not have happened. The police don't have the resources to be there all the time and the two speed cameras were burned out by idiots.

 

Just been outside to look at the traffic and yes the idiots are sill doing 40 + down and up the road, those that try to keep to 20 are being tailgated by the idiots.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Roads are chocca with angry folk these days, all in a hurry for who knows what.

 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

13 hours ago, ron evans said:

Two deaths and numerous serious accidents on this road in the last 10 ten years, if the idiots had been doing 30mph they would probably not have happened.

Oh come on 2 deaths in 10 years, that's nothing, with the new limit there will probably be more, as impatient drivers will overtake, and pedestrians will wander more like sheep knowing  ( or they think they do ) that it is safer to be hit at that speed.

[Graham Bowers]

9 hours ago, john stones 1 - Moderator said:

Roads are chocca with angry folk these days, all in a hurry for who knows what.

 

My observations of driver behaviour when doing long distance solo cycle touring* is it gets worse the larger the conurbation, particularly at "rush" hour. Combined with my experience during my career that the trend was to pile more work on less people, I think it's largely due to the stresses of modern life.

 

One can always spin an anecdote one way or the other, and this thread is a prime example. So that's my sincere spin.

 

*I see the same in normal life near home etc, but long distance cycle touring provides a great opportunity to consistently make observations in varying situations and spot patterns and repetitive behaviours.

[Peter Christy]

[FlyinFlynn]

14 hours ago, Nigel R said:

 

You're claiming the findings of a world beating higher education and research establishment are 'pure codswallop' ?

 

 

Yep.

[FlyinFlynn]

17 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

I'm just intrigued to know how you are so knowledgeable that you can make statements like that. 

 

Some research

I listen to many different sources of news, not just the stuff the state feed you. Are you claiming the forcasts that the Imperial colledge put forth concerning the pandemic were accurate and based on sound scientific principles?  If you are I have a car to sell you.

Edited September 27, 2023 by FlyinFlynn

[Learner]

9 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said:

I listen to many different sources of news, not just the stuff the state feed you. Are you claiming the forcasts that the Imperial colledge put forth concerning the pandemic were accurate and based on sound scientific principles?  If you are I have a car to sell you.

you tube or facebook?

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Oh come on 2 deaths in 10 years, that's nothing, with the new limit there will probably be more, as impatient drivers will overtake, and pedestrians will wander more like sheep knowing  ( or they think they do ) that it is safer to be hit at that speed.

Data Paul?

[ron evans]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

Oh come on 2 deaths in 10 years, that's nothing, with the new limit there will probably be more, as impatient drivers will overtake, and pedestrians will wander more like sheep knowing  ( or they think they do ) that it is safer to be hit at that speed.

I'm sure it meant something to the two people who died and their families.

 

Over 400 new houses have been built half a mile north of us and drivers are choosing our road rather than than the bypass, that will take you all the way to the M4 motorway without a 20 limit in sight. My hope is the new limit will persuade drivers in that direction.

 

Road markings prohibit overtaking on the road so how would you stop reckless idiots speeding in our situation.

 

Having driven thousands of miles of mountain roads going slope soaring, I can confirm that Welsh sheep have more road sense than many idiot drivers in Wales 😀

[FlyinFlynn]

3 hours ago, Learner said:

you tube or facebook?

Neither.

 

A very quick search on Imperial college and 20mph unearthed this -

 

"An evaluation of 20mph zones in London, carried out by Imperial College, showed slowing traffic had no net negative impact on exhaust emissions. However, in 20mph zones vehicles moved more smoothly, with fewer accelerations and decelerations, than in 30mph zones."

 

Emissions reduction by virtue of reducing the speed limit just does not pass the sniff test (if you will pardon the pun), vehicle engines are most efficient at a rated speed, and that is generally somewhere in the 50mph range in top gear, any deviation from that makes the vehicle less efficient which must increase both fuel consumption and therefore emissions per unit travelled.

 

Imperial college was, and AFAIK, are still employing, guesswork when inputting the starting data in their computer models like "The report assumed that asymptomatic individuals were 50% as infectious as symptomatic cases". With hindsight, utter codswallop....... Garbage in, garbage out.  Also, Imperials research was for London, I'll wager the driving conditions in your average Welsh village are somewhat different to central London. Garbage in, garbage out again.  

 

Imperial does very nicely thankyou from government contracts, about £50 million a year...they wouldn't want to jeopardise those.

 

Enough of the ad homiem attacks gents. If you want to refute my assertions that is all well and good, I'm up for a debate, but if we are going to drop to the level of trying to insult each other  then you carry on by yourselves.

 

[MattyB]

21 hours ago, Tim Kearsley said:

I'm just intrigued to know how you are so knowledgeable that you can make statements like that. 

 

Some research

 

19 hours ago, Nigel R said:

You're claiming the findings of a world beating higher education and research establishment are 'pure codswallop' ?

 

4 hours ago, FlyinFlynn said:

Yep.

 

Having taken a look at that piece of research, at first glance it does seem logical and pretty well done for the scenario it is modelling. For instance, they point that it's the accelerating in stop start conditions that is the really polluting bit, so any model that evaluates pollution at (say) a constant 30mph versus a constant 20mph is likely to paint an incorrect picture because there is more time spent accelerating with a higher speed limit. In these stop start conditions it also points out the average speeds achieved and journey time figures are only very minimally affected with lowered limits, something I suspect all of us would agree with.

 

However, I do see a major flaw in applying this research to the Welsh example. That study was done for Future Transport London (not sure exactly who they are, but probably a UK Gov quango), and was focussed on simulating the effect of changes on urban traffic in London. Yes, they did a lot of work to validate their models with real data for that scenario, but the scenario itself really isn't that applicable to the majority of welsh 30 zones IMO. Of course there will be areas of stop start urban conditions in the cities and larger towns, but a far higher percentage of the (now historic) 30 limits were in uncongested rural areas where speeds can be far more constant with minimal acceleration and braking. The effect on journey time and average speed of a drop to 20 limits will also be more significant in these spots. In that light, any improvement to air quality from a 20 zone does appear far less likely, a fact that the Welsh pilot study I linked to earlier seemed to validate.

 

Ultimately though, none of the above really matters at this point. The limit is here to stay now, unless it proves so unpopular that the main parties in Wales come to believe that overturning the change is a vote winner at the next GE in 2024. Until then, our welsh friends will need to get used to driving rather slower.... 😉 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by MattyB

[Shaun Walsh]

[Tim Kearsley]

34 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said:

Enough of the ad homiem attacks gents. If you want to refute my assertions that is all well and good, I'm up for a debate, but if we are going to drop to the level of trying to insult each other  then you carry on by yourselves.

 

Yes, but assertions with nothing to back them up are of no value.  I can assert the earth is flat or that Covid vaccinations were just a ploy by the government to control the population.  Without data to back them up.... useless.

[Learner]

48 minutes ago, FlyinFlynn said:

vehicle engines are most efficient at a rated speed, and that is generally somewhere in the 50mph range in top gear, any deviation from that makes the vehicle less efficient which must increase both fuel consumption and therefore emissions per unit travelled.

 

 

 

Ah! thats why they drive at 50 in a 30 to save money in these difficult times! 

[Paul De Tourtoulon]

8 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Data Paul?

What's Data got to do with it ?.

 

 

Ok, I drive in my local town at 30 klm/h and sometimes even the bike brigade overtake me,

don't forget, I live in the South of France, and not many people keep to the speed limits, and zebra crossing, what are they for ?.

[Nigel R]

Flyinflinn. If you can produce a copy of the epidemiological report you prepared before covid had infected more than a few thousand people, based off your own assumptions, using the available data of the day, and demonstrate it to be significantly more accurate than the models that imperial were producing at the time, I'll start listening to you.

[Don Fry]

1 hour ago, Paul De Tourtoulon said:

What's Data got to do with it ?.

 

 

Ok, I drive in my local town at 30 klm/h and sometimes even the bike brigade overtake me,

don't forget, I live in the South of France, and not many people keep to the speed limits, and zebra crossing, what are they for ?.

I’m not the one who reckoned two deaths were nothing, and then spouted off with suppositions and wandering assumptions. Note also, what part of ignoring a speed limit (with impunity) is part of the reason for the high death rates in France.