CA Glue - intolerance to fumes

[TonyS]

The past two nights I've suffered nasty asthma attacks and had a streaming nose. Didn't know what to make of this but it can't be any coincidence that for two days I've been using copious amounts of cyano ( often in conjunction with a kicker) to build my Gloster. I'm in bed typing this unable to sleep, having been up half the night. ( not all wasted as I figured out how to mount the tail servos). Anyone else have similar problems? I'm seriously thinking of giving up with CA but it is going to make sheetng the fuse a real pain. Maybe some kind of extraction, a mask or respirator, or some different kind of CA? Even working outside perhaps weather permitting? Anyone any thoughts?

[Stephen Grigg]

I normally work with the door wide open as I found the fumes to much Tony.I havent needed  to work with Cyano lately fortunately,but spend a couple of days afterwards peeling it off my fingers

[ken anderson.]

think you have both hit the nail on the head...........plenty of ventilation...save you're bellows ending up like set's of bagpipe's......

 

       ken anderson.......ne 1....

[winchweight]

Pretty normal reaction really. Ventilate well, and try not to breathe it in. It can also cause palpitations and regular exposure can leave you increasingly susceptible.

 

Take care

[IanN]

Most of the major cyano manufacturers have an odourless item in their ranges - however, you would think that there would still be fumes present even if the smell has been removed. Don't know if that would help or not. ANyone used that?

 

I find cyano gives me headaches (ordinary, not the odourless stuff). I use plenty of ventilation like everyone above. A six inch desk fan, with either window or door open does the trick

[TonyS]

Good advice. I still feel lousy. Hope this wears off soon as I've still got half a fuse to build! I don't know if anyone uses Zip kicker. That says that in the state of California it's registered as a known carcinogen. Nice! Not sure if that's the propellant or the contents though. If it's the propellant then it probably says it on everything in an aerosol. The main thing is to hope that the intolerance isn't permanent and further bouts can be avoided by good ventilation. If this happens every time I open a bottle I'll be back to balsa cement and building using lots of elastic bands over months. ;-(

[Wingman]

Can make your eyes water a bit when the work is just under your nose as you breathe on it to kick off the cyano

[Jonathan Lewzey]

makes my eyes water too more and more every time I use it. although use it less now than I used to. 

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by TonyS on 05/04/2010 09:52:02:
says that in the state of California it's registered as a known carcinogen.

 

Avoid using it in the State of California!

 

[John Privett]

Tony,  I've never had a problem with CA myself,  but it's a problem that often gets raised in the various forums and newsgroups.  It does seem to get worse too with increased exposure and as mentioned earlier the odourless variety do ffer a solution to some people.

 

And I sometimes wonder of there's anything that isn't registered as a carcinogen in the state of California!

[kc]

Surely there should be plans available somewhere for some sort of cabinet with extractor fan rather like that used in laboratories for certain chemicals.?

 

Otherwise more patience and using PVA is the answer!

 

Note that the man who used to make cyano and sell it at the major model shows told me now he cannot handle  the stuff .  So it is a serious matter.

[Bob Cotsford]

years ago I built a Clive Smalley free plan Sukhoi 26, using pound shop cyano for almost everything.  That was my first experience of asthma type symptoms.  Nowadays a single whiff of fumes can set me off, and leave me (even more) short of breath for days.  I found opening doors and windows no help at all unless there's a howling gale outside.  Now I just use PVA and exercise a little patience except for the the odd occasion where I use cyano for local hardening.

[Richard Wood]

There was a recent thread on this very topic:

Ventilation

 

Arranging adequate ventilation can be troublesome & difficult to install.

Odourless CA's might be the answer - I hope so because building a model

exclusively with PVA takes an age.

Edited By Richard Wood on 05/04/2010 12:32:30

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Tony,

 

A lot of folks knock the H&S culture - but as I've said before the HSE themselves talk a lot of common sense in my view. Their views on cyano are interesting...

 

CA falls within the COSHH (Control of Substances Hazardous to Health) regulations as far as industry is concerned. Fumes from both CA and kickers (or as the HSE calls them "accellerants") is a subject that they have issued several documents on. See page 12 of this for example. If you go to the HSE website you can download some data sheets with practical advice. Basically it amounts to - in decreasingly desirable order:

 

1. Don't use unless you have to

2. Provide a mechanical/engineering solution (i.e. separate humans and the fumes)

3. Exract and ventilate

4. Provide Personal Protective Equipment - ie a respirator.

 

The last of these is seen as a very last resort and is not a recommended measure except in exceptional circunstances.

 

The message I would take from this is to reduce exposure to a minimum. For example I only use CA for temporary tacking joints and "field repairs". I do not use it as a routine adhesive. You should always ventilate the room well when using CA. If you are very sensitive you might even want to consider ventilation and a respirator even for these occassional small uses. Again HSE website can advise on an appropriate spec of respirator (note it must be respirator - not a dust mask which would be useless in this case.)

 

Take care mate - you only have one pair of lungs!

 

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother on 05/04/2010 12:37:12

[TonyS]

Yup - lots of good advice.

Normally I'm fairly gung ho about things like this but last night I was seriously struggling to breathe.

Today I've bought a respirator specifically to deal with fumes (paints / organic solvents etc). Could be the best £20 I ever spent. (Though I will look like Darth Vader when I'm building..!)

I'm going to put the model building on hold for a day or so until I'm back in shape then use both the respirator and as much ventilation as is humanly possible - I'd rather wear a few extra layers than go through that again.

Even today I feel like I've a bad case of sinusitis...

Sounds like overkill but like BEB says - not going to get another pair of lungs...

I hope that in China and other places where they build kits up etc they aren't cavalier about H&S and cyano use...... though there's a nagging doubt.......

 

PS I don't think Hot Cross Buns are registered as a carcinogen in California yet....so I'm off to toast another one.. 

Edited By TonyS on 05/04/2010 13:53:25

[kc]

Obviuosly waiting overnight for the PVA to dry might prolong construction, but the answer is to work on different sections on the same day.  i.e work on several small building boards for tailplane, rudder, as well as the wings and fuselage. 

Do a couple of test pieces with both PVA and cyano and pull them apart which might prove that PVA is much stronger and therefore better as well as healthier and cheaper!

 

As for the original question and sheeting a fuselage, using masking tape, pins or rubber bands might be needed with PVA.   Use an Aliphatic ( sandable ) PVA.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Myron Beaumont]

When I started I used my grandads glue pot with boiled bones in it .Just like furniture makers of old did .AND their stuff never falls apart & it smells quite nice too ,Perfect partner for wood even "organic" I suppose

[Malcolm Fisher]

I rarely use cyano adhesives these days but used to carry some for field repairs. These days I don't do field repairs - all are much better done in the workshop whatever that mey be.

 

PVA, aliphatic. epoxy, contact adhesive and balsa cement do all my building work and the choice of adhesive depends on the job to be done.

 

There is also the old adage "more haste less speed" to consider. Is it so important to have an "instant fix"?

 

Contact adhesive has worked very well for me for sheeting "D" box leading edges so ought to work for sheeting fuselages as well although care is needed to make sure that the alignment is right.

 

IMO, for curved fuselages, old fashioned planking with balsa cement is best and it doesn't take all that long to dry. Almost any glue will be OK for slab sided boxy fuselages.

Edited By Malcolm Fisher on 05/04/2010 20:13:05

[flytilbroke]

Other Household and body chemicals do that to me only not as long lasting effects. I find the "kicker" aerosol is the stuff and delivery system, with the worst effect not the CA fume which seems easier to ventilate away.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

One thing I believe you can try when using PVA for sheeting is this:

 

1. Coat the sheet and the framework its to be glued to with PVA, set aside to dry. You could do lots of sheets in one session.

 

2. When the time comes to apply the sheet simply put it in place and apply a hot iron (like a covering iron). Apparently the heat reactives the glue - result, instant fix no fumes.

 

The convienence of CA with the safety of PVA.

 

I stress I've never tried this - but I've heard good reports. Anyone given it a go?

 

BEB

[Peter Jenkins]

As an asthma sufferer, I was pretty badly affected by CA so I went to B&Q and bought a mask with double canisters.  Works a treat and I am also protected from some of the balsa dust in the air in my shed!  Only problem is that it's a bit restrictive when trying to work close up in a fuselage...but it sure beats feeling as if your lungs have been torched! 

[TonyS]

Peter, just bought the same piece of kit from B & Q myself. Glad to hear it works. BEB I really am interested in the iron / PVA technique. You need a instant fix when working on the fiddly bits of sheeting particularly. Will be giving that a go. T

[Peter Miller]

The trick with the iron and dried glue should be done with aliphatic resin, It polymerises the glue so it is a once only operation.

 

I used to use a lot of CA until I became sensitive to it. Now I can use the odourless CA but not the normal stuff.

 

Many years ago a Doctor Matthews wrote to em when I was talking about this in a column.

 

He said that people had been using CA to hold components to a circuit board before soldering. They strated getting headaches. It turned out that they were getting Cyanide poisoning.

[Peter Miller]

On Glues. Many years ago I used to built the Pilot kits. These provided a liquid glue for joining the cowlings.

 

I developed a very serious reaction to this. I didn't  realise what was  doing it until the last time. By then both  eyes closed up and the eyeballs looked like lumps of meat. I was blind for three days.

 

That was frightening.

 

Anyone else ever have that. It started of with streaming nose. Next attacck was pain in the tear ducts. The next time one eye closed up. The last time was both eyes.