The FrSky revolution - very worried men?

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I don't think you will have any great problem with it John, As has been said, just accept that it is different and take your time with the first model. Once you get "the idea" I actually think its easier than a "conventional" Tx.

BEB

[iqon]

Posted by john stones 1 on 10/04/2014 13:42:45:

I have watched a few of tutorials, its different

I reckon with a model in front of me I can do it. I think its time to buy a 2.4 for away days and electric models.

Price is good, so is feedback, I like a challenge.

I best go and join the queue

you can have my place

having looked at tutorials have decided its a step too far for me, I`m going for a spektrum dx7s

[Rich too]

Posted by Chris Bott - Moderator on 09/04/2014 15:36:25:

Posted by Rich2 on 09/04/2014 15:12:22:

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 09/04/2014 14:58:26:

Interesting as the Macchi that I'm building will be around £900 worth and the parts that worry me most regarding reliability are the servos and switches , my 60 and 90 powered aerobats and my 180 power Christen Eagle are all equipped with FrSky - after 4 years I'm quite convinced that the rf package is the equal of units costing double or more. My experience is that those with big brand radios are not immune from problems just because they paid more for them.

I am not suggesting they are, but for the sake of £20 in a £900 plane......!

Rich

Edited By Rich2 on 09/04/2014 15:14:55

But Rich, why pay £20 more AND have to use a radio that you can't program to do what you want and that won't tell you that the RF signal and your Rx battery are OK etc etc.

I for one, am not using FrSky for the sake of £20. I'm using it 'cos it does what I want.

Chris, I am talking about guys that have other brands of tx, Futaba etc and use the cheap FrSky rx's.

Rich

[James Fuller]

I am 75 years old and have flown RC models since 1958. I have watched brands of radio appear and disappear for all of those years. For most of those years I worked for or owned a wholesale plumbing supply business. Shortly before my first job in that industry there were over fifty manufacturers of residential water heaters. Today there are three. As any manufacturing industry matures it becomes obvious that there is only one most economical method of producing a product. The manufacturers that do the best job at that method are able to sell an equal product for less enabling them to displace those who are not as efficient. Soon there are fewer competitors. The market share of the top few makes it nearly impossible for a new competitor to break into the market. Simple economics.

There were four major players in the RC industry. Each was able to differentiate their product to buyers to carve out and hold a market share. Even though the differences were more apparent than real. Now two new innovations. 2.4 gig and open programming. I think that there will be a shake up in the industry. FrSky will become a player in the market. All makes will reduce prices. We will all benefit from reduced prices. Open programming will become the way of the future. More simple economics.

BTW, I live in the USA, and subscribe to RCM&E. The magazines here, with the exception of Flying Models, are not worth the paper that they are printed on. Long live RCM&E.

jamesF

[Masher]

Good input James - bigger picture stuff. The thread has dropped into "picky ping pong" in my opinion - and would be just the same if we were talking Futaba vs Spektrum or any other.

For me the main change here is Open Source software and I feel this will prevail in the future. If the existing major players were doing their job properly (R&D planning and investment) they will be introducing their responses to FrSky in due course. Since most people don't have R&D money any more, perhaps they need innovation - technical is difficult but they could introduce some clever marketing to buy time and market share - Eg offer Rx's for subsidised rates BOGOF as an incentive to keep loyal customers.

I would also wonder about the future of FrSky! They are the flavour of the month at the moment, bolstered by users on this forum, but they now need to worry about what is next, growing fast whilst developing the next products, supply chain, cash flow etc..................

Another thing I wonder about with Open source is, who does the QA bit? I come from a high tech electronics industry where it is a devil of a job to get multi-displine R&D teams to come together and get the product designed properly. What if we have "rogue programmers" offering flashy new upgrades - who ensures this fully works - backwards compatible, bug fixed, supportable etc? This can't easily be done by just trying it out, but needs rigerous development and qualification process. We won't even go down the path of deliberate sabotage!

 

Also, being controversial as I am a H/W engineer, products can go off track if the S/W guys are not steered by good requirements specification supported by good qualification - is this what happened with Phoenix Simulator? Load of S/W upgrades which didn't work - are users going to do as much testing with real models in the air???

I just chuck these things in for thought

Edited By Masher on 12/04/2014 07:51:35

[Frank Skilbeck]

Posted by Masher on 12/04/2014 07:47:23:

I would also wonder about the future of FrSky! They are the flavour of the month at the moment, bolstered by users on this forum, but they now need to worry about what is next, growing fast whilst developing the next products, supply chain, cash flow etc..................

Edited By Masher on 12/04/2014 07:51:35

Good point are Frsky generating enough cash to fund their expansion and development of future products?, are the current products too cheap?. Upto now they've kept the development costs to a pretty minimum and relied on the good faith of their users, couple with very competitive pricing to do their final development for them. As Chris points out in the current RCME their telemetry offering while being very competitive is a bit of a hotch potch with some sensors needing the hub and some working on the Smart Port. Plus they are up to the 3rd revision of their 2.4 protocol already and the original protocol Rx's won't work with the Taranis unless you fit a JR compatible module in the back.

But embracing Open Tx has propelled them into the limelight as they are giving the users much more bang for their buck, but it will be interesting to see how they develop from here. The Horus looks quite interesting, but they seem to be adopting a Multiplex development schedule for that one.....................................

[Daithi O Buitigh]

Having just acquired a Taranis, I can't comment on the OpenTX software, but, just having 'upgraded' from a Turnigy 9X with the Smarty Parts add-on board, I can comment on the ER9X (which will also work on Taranis).

This is updated regularly - sometimes 3 times a week both for the specific transmitter (there is a menu with a lot of choices) and also for the actual firmware.

btw - in regard to a previous post, the 9X did NOT have Open TX - it came with its own software - to do that required a mod (usual a Smarty Parts add-on programming board). The Turnigy 9XR did have the programming ability and HK did acknowledge thew open source software (ER9X in that instance)

[Masher]

As a user rather than an investor, I find the whole thing very interesting. I haven't read the bit about telemetry yet.

I'd love to know more about FrSky set up and in particular how large their development team and budget is! I hope it goes well for them but all it needs is one area - it may be the telemetry or a more serious fault which causes an accident - and suddenly the "whole" team is focussed on fire fighting and FrSky join the big boys club. Futaba & Spektrum are fully conversant with this type of issue and, I think, have a bit more substance to cope with issues.

[Chris Bott - Moderator]

Just to give some flavour of where the openTx developers are going, have a look here at the enhancements they are working on, to be released in openTx V2.

I just hope that it all appears on a Tx screen, to us, in a form that we can understand and use.

[Bob Cotsford]

First, regarding Frank's comment that the telemetry sensors are a hotch-potch - there is a reason for this. FrSky started off producing receivers and transmitter modules, then developed the add-on telemetry sensors for the D series units, those required a hub to link them to the single digital port on the receiver.

Move on around 3 years and FrSky move into the system market with the X series transmitters and receivers sporting both S-Bus and a new telemetry protocol SmartPort. What we have now are the older hub based sensors still available and a developing line of S-Port sensors, along with crossover devices such as the vario that can bridge the two systems to a degree. So it's really two different systems for older or newer equipment.

It's only a hotch-potch in the same sense that Futaba, Spektrum and JR are marketing multiple transmission protocols.

As for the Open-Tx development, I get the impression that it is a pretty professional bunch controlling the testing and version releases. I'm more concerned that development may stray into exploring what's possible rather than what is really useful and comprehensible for the man in the street.

 

Edited By Bob Cotsford on 12/04/2014 11:53:07

[Phil Green]

Weren't Frsky the very first with telemetry? I don't remember if any of the major players had telemetry in 2009.

I had their two-way prototype in early February 2010. I think they beat Jeti & mpx but I'm not sure. No wonder then that some changes have been made to the telemetry specs.

The Taranis has introduced a lot of first-time Frsky customers, who see Frsky as something 'new' - but they have been around quite a while - and prior to Frsky they had all the Corona experience.

The technical liaison with their customer base isnt new either, from day one Frsky have always accommodated sensible user suggestions - eg changes to tx module input specs, failsafe settings, return-channel protocol changes, cppm provision, receiver connector-pin configurations, receiver analogue port assignments, the DIY telemetry-module mode-switching, and more - all were implemented at the request of ourselves, the users. When was the last time you got Futaba or Spektrum to change their design to your spec? Simons Delta-8 firmware is the ultimate example, giving Frsky hardware a grip on the Futaba & Hitec market. Their respect for the customer is unprecedented and they talk to us! they answer emails, they contribute to forums... they probably even fly model aeroplanes!

For most hardware-hackers Frsky has been the system of choice but the Taranis and its supporting kit has opened them up to everyone. As has been said, the technology isnt new but the overall concept of 'open-ness'  is unique amongst RC manufacturers.  For me, that is where they score over the big four.

Cheers

Phil

Edited By Phil Green on 12/04/2014 12:55:09

[Danny Fenton]

I was using Jeti with current sensing in 2009, I thought they were one of the first, which is why I bought it Prior to that we were using Eagle tree which gave you the information on landing which at the time was as good as we could get......

Cheers

Danny

[Erfolg]

I keep needing to remind myself what it is we are discussing.

I think in essence are we about to see a change in the market place with respect the big names. In his respect we have seen in the UK at least one change already, in the last 5-6 years. That was the arrival of Spektrum, from nowhere to a significant player via 2.4. Probably the easiest identified loser, for what ever reason is Sanwa. I do think many will see that both Futaba and JR adopted an incoherent development with respect to 2.4 systems.

There appears to be two potential new game changers, not as significant as 2.4 in my opinion. That as already mentioned is Telemetry and Open Source approach to RC systems, At present it does appear that Frsky leads in both areas.

What may change a modest set of incremental changes, is there pricing strategy, when compared to the product capability offered, to a very successful brand.

Much is made by some users about product quality and integrity etc. Frsky has built an excellent reputation with respect to their product range. I will confess to be a multiple user.

I have seen a Tarnis Tx used with a F3be model. Not knowing the significance at what I was seeing, I just nodded in an appreciative way. Thinking, hmm, another Tx, looks all right. A bit of a change from those hideous tea trays he normally uses by MPX. I just got on with my flying. In my opinion, style wise, it seems fine, does not offend, nor does it turn my head as a Jeti does. but then I think B&O, all fur coat and no knickers.

I am convinced that major changes are still underway. The Taranis is not the end of the story. Nor are any of the big names safe. One could easily fail, alternatively, one may decide to get out of the market for RC equipment and concentrate on the core business. Especially if the company as a whole is fighting to maintain its trading position as a business.

[Rich too]

Posted by Phil Green on 12/04/2014 12:42:27:

Simons Delta-8 firmware is the ultimate example, giving Frsky hardware a grip on the Futaba & Hitec market. Their respect for the customer is unprecedented and they talk to us! they answer emails, they contribute to forums... they probably even fly model aeroplanes!

 

Last time I checked Futaba sponsored their own team Futaba   (quite a number of modellers in fact) - perhaps, they even get feedback from them?

Rich

Edited By Rich2 on 13/04/2014 18:56:38

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

They do Rich

Why is your stuff so expensive

[Martyn K]

For info for those who have been tempted to taste the fruits of the dark side:

T9 have the Taranis in stock at the moment..

Link

Martyn

[David...]

I can see at least one of the big four offering an Open Tx, what's to stop them... So I can load OpenTx onto my Spektrum or Futaba or whatever.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Ah, I was wondering when this would be suggested! I actually think that might be the one option that might save Futaba from their continued decline. But has it occurred to them?

BEB

[Tiger Tim]

I live on a tight Hobby Budget and have beeen following this debate with interest,.Comparing various big name brands,(and their attendant pricing) has at times brought serious heart palpitations and a ringing in the ears. .Each brand has it's fans,and I haved no need or desire to argue the toss over each brands comparitive merits.

The so called big name brands are profit driven and the sheer cost of their Rx's is ridiculous and helps maintain,wrongly or rightly,the notion that R/C flying is an exclusive pastime for the wellheeled,putting off many tyro's who might otherwise have a go.

Therefore,for this bunny the Taranis hits the most 'targets' straight off-as a first time buyer I found the price more than reasonable,and 'net feedback is very positive and readily accesssible from tablet or Android device,anywhere,anytime.

I have duly paid my $172-35 plus postage and am eagerly awaiting it's arrival here in NZ,and as the missus allows I will buy additional rx and other goodies.

[Erfolg]

Tim

Is there any successful business that is not profit driven?

The other part of success is providing what people want, or at least what they think they want and are prepared to put their hand in their own pocket to pay.

All of the Frsky products seem to be very much value for money, whose performance matches that of other brands.

In essence we agree, perhaps from slightly different view points.

[Tiger Tim]

Hello Erfolg-(BTW , is this an anagram for Golfer? )

In answer to your first question,indeed the purpose of business is success ,measured by profitabilty...salve lucrum.

The Frsky story is one of exploitation of a market need,and very successfully indeed.I agree that we seem to be arguing the same point from a different angle.The other point here is that Frsky may be the beneficiary of governmental subsidy,which would help distort the pricing ,as the 'Big Names' don't have this advantage.Nevertheless,Futaba et al had best sharpen their pencils.

[Erfolg]

Tim

I am not sure that i take any suggestion of subsidy seriously. In deed what subsidy is, is a matter of opinion.

If we take Airbus, the USA (Boeing) have suggested for years that Airbus Industries receives state subsidy, or aid.

On the other hand USA plane makers never gain an advantage from defense contracts, design studies, tender procedures, do they? Not with standing tanker studies and the 707 or perhaps the 747 and a heavy lift procurement tender.

In the case of Frsky, is the RC radio world that lucrative to be worthwhile? I can imagine that there is state support for generic development, in the form of University program, or R&D for industry as a whole.

I do find it interesting that when ever one company does well, particularly at the expense of established business, the accusations of all types begin to be made.

From my perspective, Frsky make a solid range of products at attractive prices. I use there Fasst Rx's. I am drawn to the Taranis and possibly the Huros (is that the Egyptian bird type god?). Hmm, if so what is Taranis?

To answer your question indirectly it is certainly an anagram of Golfer and also German for Success, or it could be a surname.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I'm sure that FrSky, like any other business, take full advantage of any incentives their government may offer. For example they have just moved to larger premises and taken on more staff - its quite likely they may benefit from some local grants or tax incentives to promote business growth. But that is the same the work over! I doubt if they are in receipt of any substantial specific support just for them - they are not that big an outfit!

No, I think FrSky's success is based on a few very sound commercial ideas:

1. Design the product to be right and reliable.

2. Invest in the latest manufacturing facilities so you can make the product simultaneously at both high quality and low cost.

3. Specialise in what you are really good at, in their case electronic hardware design.

4. Buy in what you don't want to develop - hence OpenTx

5. Most of all have the guts to do something innovative and different! And do it well!

BEB

[Phil Green]

You missed out the main one BEB, the reason for Frsky's success:

Listen to your customers!

Edited By Phil Green on 06/05/2014 12:07:37

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Horus= son of Isis god of the sky

John