BMFA National Flying Centre

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

The heading did, it was our bulletin which I shared with you to show we had received one and we where paying attention, makes no difference though

John

[Erfolg]

I have now read Chris Moynihan's letter/note.

If I am interpreting what he has written correctly, the BMFA has a considerable amount of money sitting in a bank (contingency fund?). That this money is earning no interest. Although not said, suffers the indignity of being taxed, even though not even returning depreciation levels of interest.

The suggestion seems to be invest this money in land, as it will almost certainly provide a real return and more importantly could be used by the BMFA. As has been observed, the one thing that is not being made any more , is land.

This does make sense to me.

I would be concerned though if the money were to be borrowed, The reason being although interest rates have now been non existent for 8 years now, this situation will change some time in the future, That is if the world of commerce continues as it has for probably 1,000 years.

My concerns are based on Greece, which appears to be pushing itself to the abyss. Or if the EU Central bank capitulates, will itself be come a hostage to fortune. It is also apparent there seems to be structural issues, a elephant in the room, that the EU is pretending do not exist. It seems that there is a very good chance that the UK will cease to exist as we know it probably in my life time. Many businesses are preparing to depart the UK as a tax domicile, if the country makes the wrong decisions with respect to business. A lot of potential if buts, and trips along the path to Nirvana.

Yet if i am pessimistic, borrowing money could be the best decision the BMFA has ever made.

Even if the land purchased were not granted planning permission for a change of use, it would not prevent limited use for flying, for a limited number of annual events. If a change of use is granted, the scope of usage increases. I would expect there would be no issue for the change of usage for any buildings from residential to business, as councils cannot resist the extra income from business rates.

This limited goal, seems far more realistic and viable to me, if I understand Chris correctly. The rest can come later, much later if necessary. I know that for most of us it is no use, from the perspective as a utility. Although it is better for all of us to use the BMFA financial resources positively for aero modelling, rather than the BMFA capital being used for the benefit of the government.

The limited scope would not be the game changer that some dream of, but could make a lot of financial sense, if we have the money. Dreams are easy, making good decisions are much more difficult to sell, as they can appear boring.

Edited By Erfolg on 03/05/2015 21:07:24

[MattyB]

Posted by Erfolg on 03/05/2015 21:05:23:

I have now read Chris Moynihan's letter/note.

If I am interpreting what he has written correctly, the BMFA has a considerable amount of money sitting in a bank (contingency fund?). That this money is earning no interest. Although not said, suffers the indignity of being taxed, even though not even returning depreciation levels of interest.

The suggestion seems to be invest this money in land, as it will almost certainly provide a real return and more importantly could be used by the BMFA. As has been observed, the one thing that is not being made any more , is land.

This does make sense to me.

I would be concerned though if the money were to be borrowed, The reason being although interest rates have now been non existent for 8 years now, this situation will change some time in the future, That is if the world of commerce continues as it has for probably 1,000 years.

Edited By Erfolg on 03/05/2015 21:07:24

You are right to be concerned. I have not been able to find 2014 accounts, but in 2013 they had just over £1m in cash, but net assets of only ~£780k:

http://bmfa.org/Portals/0/Documents/AGM13/ACCOUNTS%20YE31313.pdf

That means to move quickly they would have to borrow money from somewhere - lottery funding takes a long time to come through, and there is no guarantee of success, and presumably a good portion of that £780k is the headquarters in Leicester that would take time to sell.

Personally I am behind the idea of a NFC, but am very uncomfortable with the way it is being progressed. Leaping in like this before the feasibility study (which in itself appears to have been done by entirely internal resources according to the response I received to my question on the consultation page, not good) is complete feels like putting the cart before the horse. Fait accompli? It is starting to look that way...

Edited By MattyB on 04/05/2015 11:34:45

Edited By MattyB on 04/05/2015 11:38:15

[Erfolg]

Matty

I am also hoping that the property identified is sufficiently close to the existing office accommodation that all the staff will want to go to this location to work. Appearing to being mercenary, it would avoid redundancy payments.

I personally can see the good sense in tieing the money up in land, just as an investment.

I know that a NC for some is sold on the basis of a comprehensive set of facilities and a vision of a rejuvenated aero modelling movement. My initial position is that this is all pie in the sky. However i can go along with the notion of a location that is initially solely used and planned as a location for major competitions. Not the game changer that some believe in, but doable, realistic, and immediately useful to the BMFA (although not serving the majority of members).

The positive of this limited plan is, if the number of aero modellers continues to fall, and the BMFA ceases to be viable. There would be an asset which could be sold as part of the winding up process and returned to remaining members (hopefully that would happen far into the future if at all).

A limited objective, would also keep the dreams of many alive, where the viability of the proposed facilities and fund raising could be undertaken without excessive pressure of time.

Matty, I do have concerns with the respect of borrowed money. Although the future events could show the concept to be inspired, it could also be disastrous. I just look at both Greece and the apparent catastrophe playing out there, although ignored by the BBC (perhaps for political reasons). It is apparent that the EU has passed its zenith, even as it plans to expand further, against a back drop, of a Euro under sever pressure , quantive easing that is eroding international confidence. I would anticipate that the EU could soldier on for another 50 or so years. Although I anticipate just like  the Hansa League it will crumble and  dissolve into a number of states and power groups. The presently unforeseen event or events, which could cause the disintegration could be happening now, next week or in forthcoming years.. Then there is our own national issues, which could play out very badly.

Yes borrowing money could be inspired or a disastrous mistake.

Edited By Erfolg on 04/05/2015 14:03:05

Edited By Erfolg on 04/05/2015 14:07:44

[cymaz]

"They" should also consider more ways of making it pay for itself. Venue for trade shows, caravan rallies, concerts etc.

I know, not exactly model flying but something to keep the cash flow rolling and the tills ringing.

[Jonathan W]

Ref concerns over long term viability of the BMFA with declining numbers of aero modellers, the NFC could also include a wider range of activities than only "traditional" flying. E.g. quadcopter racing, FPV, RC cars etc. Maybe even a boating lake. That might bring in a younger generation.

[andyh]

Posted by Martin Harris on 30/04/2015 00:17:23:

Don't worry, there's a much better field half a mile to the North with a nice tarmac runway which the RAF only use once in a while now they've given away all our Harriers....

I imagine the RAF might have something to say about a model flying site within their MATZ

[Colin Leighfield]

If a decent professional management team with properly defined objectives takes this on, it will be very beneficial for model aircraft enthusiasts, whether geographically close or not. It should be ambitious and have targets which are designed to raise and improve the profile of what we do and create a strong income stream as well.

As far as I'm concerned those should be our expectations. I'm not concerned about how we got here, but I am very interested in seeing a really good business plan which will take this forward in all of our best interests and expect nothing less.

As far as Wittering is concerned, the possibility of that becoming an active operational aircraft station again is slim to say the least. The activities there now are primarily ground based and including the Royal Engineers (Air Support Engineer Group)who were moved there after Waterbeach was closed in 2012. One of the things they kept themselves busy with while they were there was digging up the runways to simulate various field operations, so worrying about Wittering as a serious MATZ in the future is probably going to be unnecessary, sadly. They even closed the gliding club there last year.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Hmmm....

But at least they don't plan to fly on the Nationals weekend.

Edited By Martin Harris on 04/05/2015 17:09:38

[Cliff Bastow]

I mat be wrong but I thought all the flying training from Wyton has been transferred to Wittering?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Flying Information for RAF Wittering

The airfield at RAF Wittering is active again with the re-introduction of Air Traffic Control Services and reactivated Military Air Traffic Zone (MATZ). The first aircraft arrived on Monday 14th April 2014 at around 10.00 am and touched down shortly thereafter.

RAF Wittering will maintain its core function as the home of the RAF’s A4 (Expeditionary Logistics) Force.

Grob Tutor aircraft from the University Air Squadrons at RAF Wyton made a series of circuits, landings and take offs. The Tutor is a two-seater, piston-engine aircraft used for elementary (basic) flying training.

By mid 2015, RAF Wittering will be the new home of five squadrons. Cambridge University Air Squadron, University of London Air Squadron and No. 5 Air Experience Flight will move here when RAF Wyton’s airfield closes. East Midlands University Air Squadron and No. 115 (Reserve) Squadron will relocate here from RAF College Cranwell.

However, with the re-introduction of Air Traffic Control Services and the reactivation of the MATZ, military aircraft from other stations will be able to fly through RAF Wittering’s airspace and land from time to time.

For security reasons, we are unable to publish detailed information on our flying schedules.

[Erfolg]

I am not as confident as some are that issues such as MATZ can be treated lightly. With any government owned entity, rights such as exclusions, transportation rights of way, site licences are guarded jealously, partially because they often have commercial value, sometimes it is the right to undertake an activity (which may not presently be used), avoids the need to request a future change of use.

I hope that expectations will be managed to align with a proposal that can be realistically realised.

It has been suggested that the provision of the National Cycling Centre was a game changer with respect to attitudes to cycling. That would be a mistaken conclusion. The centre, did provide a resource for the implementation of a structured approach to track cycling specifically, with some overspill into some aspects of road racing. The true significance that a training and appraisal programme was based at the centre, which translated into achievements of which the public became aware. This was Gold and other medals at Commonwealth , Olympic games, which was the catalyst that changed perspective of cyclists and increased coverage of the activity with respect to the media.

If I were incredibly optimistic, I cannot visualise of any scenario with a NC which would galvanise public interest, particularly with the young. How ever many World Champions that a NC may help to create, we still would be a group of old, unfit men, in the eyes of much of the public. We have virtually no female representation to speak of, where even a young champion would almost inevitably seen as a Nerd.

The best hope for a NC, is to provide a centre for current modelling activities, principally for now. Anything else that could be wrung out by non modelling related activities is a bonus, that may help finances.

If people want a game changing project, there needs to be clear understanding of what and how the vision can be made to happen. From an understanding of what you want to do, you can start thinking of what would need to be done, leading to how the vision is realised and at what cost, with some emphasis on how to finance the dream.

This study really needs to be seen by all, to understand the why, what, what and how to pay.

I almost see the purchase of land as something that may be related or not, as it makes sense in its own right.. Although the present proposal (if that is what it is) seems a little rushed and premature. Perhaps a little restraint is required?

[Dave Hopkin]

Posted by Erfolg on 04/05/2015 18:13:59:to attitudes to cycling. That would be a mistaken conclusion. The centre, did provide a resource for the implementation of a structured approach to track cycling specifically, with some overspill into some aspects of road racing. The true significance that a training and appraisal programme was based at the centre, which translated into achievements of which the public became aware. This was Gold and other medals at Commonwealth , Olympic games, which was the catalyst that changed perspective of cyclists and increased coverage of the activity with respect to the media.

Sorry I disagree, all the staff/cyclists existed before the velodrome, the velodrome gave them a focal point, a higher profile, funding and the infrastructure to create Team GB

[andyh]

Posted by Erfolg on 04/05/2015 18:13:59:

If I were incredibly optimistic, I cannot visualise of any scenario with a NC which would galvanise public interest, particularly with the young. How ever many World Champions that a NC may help to create, we still would be a group of old, unfit men, in the eyes of much of the public. We have virtually no female representation to speak of, where even a young champion would almost inevitably seen as a Nerd.

I'm inclined to agree. I seem to remember, many (25?) years ago, the British C/L Speed team being briefly featured on SPOTY, & being ridiculed in the press afterwards

[cymaz]

Call me geeky or nerdy...at least I don't spend my Saturday night having too much beer and being sick over someone's garden wall. ( That's all in the past now  

Edited By cymaz on 04/05/2015 19:08:52

[iqon]

Why are they looking at sites near an airport, to me that does not make sense.

[Dizz]

Further to my 16:42 post on 2/5/15, the information pack was waiting on the mat when I got back to Torbay this afternoon: 13 pages and 8 appendix to read and inwardly digest. As I am down in the SW, achieving one of the site visit slots is going to be challenging

[bigbubba]

I don't think it is big enough for the Nationals.

Barkston Heath is 500 acres, Law's Lawn Farm is just under 105 acres.

Admittedly you can condense the camping area at Barkston but what really matters is airspace separation between the flightlines. Barkston is only just big enough to put the Nationals on in it's current format.

As usual this has been handled extremely poorly.

[cymaz]

The nationals may have to be split over several weekends?

Dizz, I look forward to the condensed version on Friday...

Edited By cymaz on 04/05/2015 20:15:24

[bigbubba]

Traders have a bad enough time when it is just one weekend, splitting it up over several weekends would no doubt mean that traders suffer.

In reality, as much as it is the baby of the BMFA would would go to spectate at a dedicated control line Nationals?

I go to view the C/L while I am at BH but only because I am already there.

[Erfolg]

Dave

The point is that it was not a National Centre that changed things by itself. It was the results obtained at the various high profile sporting events which included cycling. I remember the only reason we got the track was Manchesters preparation for an Olympic bid. But it was the medals and TV coverage that changed the publics reaction to cycling. Now it is trendy to cycle. To a large extent we agree, I think.

[kc]

It only makes sense to invest your money in land if it's not already at the top of the market......

[cymaz]

Well, a quick search reveals some rather steep prices

HERE

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

This is not aimed at the centre discussion, but the reason cycling is so popular is because of the excellence of Dave Brailsford and his management team including the SKY team, and the class and dedication of the athletes. They are at the top of track and road racing, cycling was on the up long before the Olympics.

John

[Colin Leighfield]

Martin, it's a good job that someone bothers to check the facts like I didn't before I opened my big mouth about Wittering! However, I am pleased to hear all about that. Wittering was the home of Air Fighting Development Unit (AFDU) in the war, some amazing work was done there and it would have been very sad to see it go.