BMFA National Flying Centre

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

The fact that this information has come to light via publicly available minutes can only be seen as a positive but the impression given is that the council is simply pushing ahead with a major project regardless of the feeling of the general membership.

It's entirely likely that whilst investigating the feasibility of the project, a site has come on the market which ticks many of the boxes and the intention is to make some early, but non-committal moves in anticipation of a positive outcome of the study - but if this is the case, it needs to be stated clearly and openly to avoid accusations of "fait accompli" or underhanded dealings.

Personally, I haven't been convinced of the wisdom of the idea (or even what the idea is in any detail) but I intend to retain an open mind. Let's see the feasibility study results as soon as possible - even if it means a special edition of the BMFA news or a mailing to all club secretaries at least, with copies available on line for reference and for country members - so that we can see how the figures stack up and then let the membership comment.

I know that most, if not all of the employees of the BMFA and representatives are committed and enthusiastic in their work for the BMFA for all the right reasons but it does have to be realised that an organisation of this size has to present itself positively and it does seem that sometimes it comes over as a little secretive - which I'm sure is not the intent.

Edited By Martin Harris on 02/05/2015 11:39:27

[Erfolg]

Martin

I have previously taken sounding from within the club I am a member, at present i am confident that not one member is indifferent to the idea, that does not mean in support or against.

When information in the form of a report becomes available. I will endeavour to ensure that our members are aware of the study. I will approach both the Chairman and Treasurer to get their opinion if we should have a club meeting to establish the members views and perhaps a secret ballot to measure the range of views, either for or against.

For my part this is a really big decision. At its worst, potentially driving the BMFA to insolvency. At best, i am a little challenged, without knowing the aspirations etc.

As has been mentioned previously, insurance is available commercially, that stands comparison with the present BMFA cover. Our club was one that was so covered. I really do not want to have follow this path due to a vanity project.

Yet if there are merits, the report should help in understanding them.

There are real dangers in pressing ahead without proper consultation, that is far more effective and far ranging than has been displayed to-date. For instance, increases in subscriptions could lead to criticism , going as far to the loss of members and possibly clubs. Far better engagement with members is a must.

[Bob Cotsford]

Posted by John Privett on 02/05/2015 09:53:21:

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 02/05/2015 08:54:52:

I don't keep the BMFA newsletters but I could have sworn this idea had a mention some time before the survey took place.

I'm sure it has too, and in another thread Andy Symons pointed out that it's been mentioned in at least 3 copies of the BMFA News - a publication sent to every member, as well as the Club Bulletins.

So we have people complaining that the BMFA never tells them anything. And yet we also have people telling us that the BMFA News goes straight in the bin when they receive it. Hmmm....

not sure whether you were implying I was one of those binning the newsletters on receipt John, but just to be clear I do read them but don't keep them for posterity so can't quote date and page for the reference....

[extra slim]

I have heard on the grape vine, that the BMFA have 2 plans

a) form a strategic alliance with a donkey and pony sanctuary, to ensure they get a slice of the great british tradition of eccentrics bequeathing their estate. That way, they will secure funding, have the donkeys carrying out gear to the flight line and free glue for all members

b) register the site as a special breeds farm, (well we are aren't we) and tap into some EU funding.

if they fail (which would be surprising), they will call up Mr Branson "hey up Rich, you must be getting bored of them real uns mate, fancy a twiddle on a super 60!!!"

its a pretty heavy debate and good views from all sides. As one member said, they had the chance on Elvington years ago and missed the boat. Action should be backed, and it is a fine line between pushing ahead, and opening it up to the floor and ending up nowhere. Land is increasingly scarce. Getting something secured without a massive impact on the organisation is surely a good thing, the i's and t's can be dotted later.

 

Edited By extra slim on 02/05/2015 12:22:41

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 02/05/2015 12:13:39:

Posted by John Privett on 02/05/2015 09:53:21:

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 02/05/2015 08:54:52:

I don't keep the BMFA newsletters but I could have sworn this idea had a mention some time before the survey took place.

I'm sure it has too, and in another thread Andy Symons pointed out that it's been mentioned in at least 3 copies of the BMFA News - a publication sent to every member, as well as the Club Bulletins.

So we have people complaining that the BMFA never tells them anything. And yet we also have people telling us that the BMFA News goes straight in the bin when they receive it. Hmmm....

not sure whether you were implying I was one of those binning the newsletters on receipt John, but just to be clear I do read them but don't keep them for posterity so can't quote date and page for the reference....

No need - just click on the Archive tab here...

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

No Bob if I was out of order I apologise, my feelings are pretty much in line with Martins so i'll give him a +1

John

[John Privett]

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 02/05/2015 12:13:39:

Posted by John Privett on 02/05/2015 09:53:21:

Posted by Bob Cotsford on 02/05/2015 08:54:52:

I don't keep the BMFA newsletters but I could have sworn this idea had a mention some time before the survey took place.

I'm sure it has too, and in another thread Andy Symons pointed out that it's been mentioned in at least 3 copies of the BMFA News - a publication sent to every member, as well as the Club Bulletins.

So we have people complaining that the BMFA never tells them anything. And yet we also have people telling us that the BMFA News goes straight in the bin when they receive it. Hmmm....

not sure whether you were implying I was one of those binning the newsletters on receipt John, but just to be clear I do read them but don't keep them for posterity so can't quote date and page for the reference....

No Bob, it wasn't aimed at you, or at any named individual(s) in particular.

I just find it curious that there are people complaining that the BMFA doesn't tell them anything, and there are also people complaining on other threads (possibly other forums?) that the BMFA News publication is rubbish and they never read it. I don't have an insight on how much of an overlap there is between those two groups of people, or have any specific individuals in mind. Just an observation.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I was in the wrong John

JS

[David P Williams]

Yes, my apologies, the proposed site is not on the extended centre line - but it's about 2km south of the western end of the runway. My original comments were based on a quick look at a half-mil aeronautical chart, and a subsequent check on Google maps shows the difference. Wittering may not be as active as it was, but on aeronautical charts there is still a MATZ and ATZ, with the MATZ stubs in line with the runway which is 08/26. The proposed site is not just within the MATZ, but also within the ATZ of the airfield, which in this case has a radius of 2.5nm from the midpoint of the runway (runway length greater than 1850m).

It's a combined MATZ (CMATZ) with Cottesmore, and controlled by Cottesmore.

[Jonathan W]

I think some of the poor communications lies at the door of clubs as well as BMFA. For example, in my club I have paid my BMFA subs some months ago, but still do not have a 2015 membership card. This is because our club secretary relies on handing them out at the flying field when he bumps into people, rather than putting them in the post. This is not a complaint about my club, as I am generally happy with the informal way it is run.

However, it is a valid observation as to the lack of communications, because I now discover that I need a PIN number in order to register for full access to the BMFA website and that PIN is apparently printed on my new membership card. In the absence of my card, I now need to email the BMFA and apply for a PIN so that I can get the access I need to be able to post a comment there on the NFC topic.

I have experienced membership of other clubs, mainly automotive, and in comparison the BMFA membership renewal and website presentation is only just now emerging from the dark ages. Hopefully we can look forwards to some improvements.

[Erfolg]

Johnathan

I will admit to doing much the same with BMFA certificates, the club cards are given out when you renew. I take the view that unless you want to visit another club or venue, it is of little importance. I have found that 90% can be delivered either at the field, or when i go around our district. I will be raising the subject at our next GM, if you want it posting, you pay extra, all others will receive the BMFA certificate at the last winter club night or at the field or they can be collected from me if necessary. After all, I want club subscriptions spent on flying activities and directly on the club, not the Postal service.

We also now communicate as much as possible by E-mail. That is most things received from our Area District Chairman, Area Secretary and anything else that seldom comes direct from the BMFA office (mostly channelled through the Area Chairman).

With respect to the NC, I have been disappointed with communication from the BMFA. Our group would like to see the basis of any proposal, before any personal presentations in support. In some respects given the nature of this concept, counter views need to be given a platform by the BMFA central office. Assuming the idea is well thought out as a concept and the financial aspects are equally robust, there would be nothing to fear from counter arguments.

I do find it a little disappointing when any voiced concerns, are dismissed as lacking vision, or whingers, or the inference that the various committees are the only legitimate avenues for representation. Open civilised and free discussion is a must for such a significant subject.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Not exactly sure of the date Johnathan but if you paid some months ago you may not have a PIN on your card, I think it was done around March 20th, apologies in advance if this dates out

John

[cymaz]

(taken from the BMFA News)

Yeah right.......yet to see it

[Jonathan W]

Thanks for the info guys. I do have occasion to visit another venue, but fortunately I do have the temporary renewal slip given to me when I paid the subs. I guess I will email BMFA for a PIN after the bank holiday and look into country membership for next year. My club is a little thin on coms. We get maybe two emails a year, one each to remind us about BMFA subs and club subs!! But still, I value the flying field it provides, so all good really.

Regarding the NFC, I think it is potentially a positive move and you can understand that any feasibility study must also require looking at candidate sites as and when they are available. It's not clear if the BMFA have actually purchased this particular farm or not, as that would appear to be jumping the gun. A single national centre is a lot easier to initiate and administer than a series of regional venues.

[cymaz]

I'm not against the NFC

I JUST DON'T LIKE THE WAY ITS HANDLED

[Dizz]

Here is the proposal to be put to Full Council in 2 weeks time.

PROPOSAL: That Council endorses the actions agreed upon unanimously by the BMFA Executive Committee on 11th April to make all relevant planning and change of use searches while concurrently contacting the selling agents of Laws Lawn Farm in East Northamptonshire in order to open negotiations on making an offer to purchase (subject to contract ) the said property.

REASON: Background factors: By the date of the next BMFA Council meeting in May, all Council members will have received an exhaustively complete feasibility study document detailing the thorough nature of the searches for suitable sites and, more importantly, the overall financial feasibility and viability of acquiring and effectively maintaining a National Centre for the BMFA. Additionally all Council members will have received and hopefully accepted an invitation from the BMFA Office to visit the proposed flying/ National Centre site and formed a view as to its suitability. As it stands and at the time of submitting this proposal, the BMFA has not received permission from the appropriate authorities to host the Free Flight, Power or Silent Flight Nationals at Barkston and/or Cranwell in 2015; additionally the BMFA is only too aware of increasing difficulties in gaining access to any MoD sites such as Salisbury Plain and Middle Wallop. While this proposal offers no solutions to the immediate 2015 problems it highlights the increasingly difficult and uncertain situation in accessing major MoD sites and underlines the need for the BMFA to secure a site over which it exercises control. The UK economic situation is such that we can expect ever increasing pressure on the MoD to reduce costs and maximise usage of its remaining sites; moreover with all political parties planning massive housebuilding programmes all MoD sites for disposal or changed use will be considered primarily for housing or commercial development which renders them likely to be unaffordable to the BMFA. Interest rates on financial loans are at an historic low in the UK which for the foreseeable future makes an outright purchase more attractive and financially sound. Reasoning: To secure longer term support funding for this project the BMFA is aware that grant-funding bodies and other potential investors will need to see a high degree of financial commitment already in place before considering any applications. To achieve this the BMFA has been fortunate in identifying a site which immediately offers a tangible and affordable first step while offering the potential for further development as additional funding becomes available. If an offer to purchase is accepted, the BMFA’s financial situation, coupled with expectations of support from our very generous insurance brokers, means that these initial actions through to 2016 require no additional financing via the BMFA’s membership fee. Extensive information and consultation with our membership will now begin culminating in either an EGM or AGM motion in 2015 seeking to better inform the membership on the details of this project and enlisting their views and hopefully overall support. Key to this is the fact that a land acquisition of this nature at this time makes good financial sense for the reason that BMFA funds invested currently are receiving virtually no interest while land continues to escalate considerably in value. The Executive is vitally committed to proceeding on this project through an active support and information process in place with Council, clubs and country members. However, as anybody who has ever purchased a house or other property will know, the process of negotiating a price and securing a purchase with agents, often playing interested parties off against each other, is a volatile and fast moving process. The BMFA Executive Committee takes the view that, if we are ever to succeed in such a venture, actions will have to be taken in a timely manner which renders a consultation with our thirty six thousand members virtually impractical. However, safeguards must be in place to protect the interests of our membership. To this end, the Executive is clear that even if further development is impossible after purchase, either because of a majority or convincingly reasoned rejection from the membership, or a possible error in the BMFA’s financial planning, no cost penalty will accrue to the membership as the land may be re-sold. Indeed, it may prove profitable. Conclusion: Clearly this represents a major step for the BMFA and indicates a way forward that puts the BMFA in a controlling position of a major flying site for the first time. The Executive Committee has agonised at length over this decision and is unanimously of the view that this is the right thing to do at the right time. We are hugely concerned that we act in the best long term interests for model flying in the UK and this potential property acquisition gives the BMFA a way forward which may ultimately mean we can promote events and programmes of interest to and support from all our members without having to rely on the vacillating and sometimes grudging support of those bodies such as the MoD. Given the full documentary briefing you will have had, plus guided access to the proposed site, I, on behalf of the unanimously agreed Executive Committee, commend this proposal to you and, in seeking your endorsement to the actions already taken, sincerely trust that you will actively support the future consultative processes with our members leading to an informed and positive outcome.

Thank you. Chris Moynihan, Chairman

NB I haven't received the additional information pack or an invitation to view the site yet

Pete Disney

RNMAA and SW Area Delegate

[Erfolg]

Cymaz

I have read the contributions on the link you have provided and also considered some of the surveys that My Ashby has undertaken. From my reading I am convinced that it essential that any proposal includes extensive area of concrete, for the Zimmer frames to and from all areas. I have noted that the apparent average of all members is approaching 70. I have noted that both my parents, as well as my in-laws went from fit and active to increasingly restricted mobility once they were past the mid 70s.

I was intrigued by an assertion that the average age or modal group continues to move to the right (that is older). I did wonder if this is a recorded fact, or a believe?

 

Edited By Erfolg on 02/05/2015 16:55:13

[Dizz]

Posted by cymaz on 01/05/2015 06:26:45:

If the meeting is that important..put it on the front page for all to see. Club members have a greater chance of seeing it and then asking their delegate.

I had no idea Peter Disney was going. I will email him or see him at Truro Club sometime and ask him what is going on. Now I will also ask our area chairman.

It seems too cloak and dagger....BMFA should publicise meetings more via the front web page.

 

Cymaz:

The subject of a National Centre along with the way forward in general for the BMFA and Areas organisation has been discussed many times in the last year at the Sub Area meetings.  It will be on the agenda again next Friday.  I am surprised you are not aware that I, as the Area Delegate, attend Full Council meetings (and Areas Council as required): who do you think represents the collective views of the county up the line?

All BMFA members in the county (including Country Members) are, and always have been, very welcome to attend the meetings at Trispen.  I look forward to seeing you at the Clock and Key at 19.00 on Friday-mine's a pint of Tribute thanks.

Pete

Edited By Dizz on 02/05/2015 16:56:53

[Colin Leighfield]

Everyone will have their view on the way this is being done and who am I to criticise that, there are clearly a lot of very good people who are less than happy. However, from a personal position, I have no complaints and think this is a good and imaginative thing to do. It is also timely.

If successful, it will represent a very substantial and secure asset for BMFA as well as providing loads of new opportunities that will benefit members in a number of different ways. Therefore I support and wish the Executive Committee every success in their endeavours.

I hope that forum friends who disagree won't hold it against me because I don't question their opinions, it is just how I see it.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Colin Leighfield on 02/05/2015 17:01:23:

Everyone will have their view on the way this is being done and who am I to criticise that, there are clearly a lot of very good people who are less than happy. However, from a personal position, I have no complaints and think this is a good and imaginative thing to do. It is also timely.

If successful, it will represent a very substantial and secure asset for BMFA as well as providing loads of new opportunities that will benefit members in a number of different ways. Therefore I support and wish the Executive Committee every success in their endeavours.

I hope that forum friends who disagree won't hold it against me because I don't question their opinions, it is just how I see it.

Would be an odd person that would fall out with you Colin, but I still think that dsm model of Baz's will fly o.k at 33%

John

Edited By john stones 1 on 02/05/2015 17:12:21

[Erfolg]

Colin

I do not think that there are any with concerns who hold any grudges with respect to supporters.

In my case I cannot see how it is possible to support the NC beyond it is a very nice wish list of nebulous ideas as presently presented. Just like i love apple pie and cream, my wife is less than convinced that I should eat it, as the calories, fat and sugar are not good for an over weight person in their mid 60s.

In some respects I can give grudging support to the survey of the wants of those in favour. It is grudging because it discounts or does not put into context those who have already indicated opposition. Additionally it seems to be the opinion of about 600 (of the 1000, it seems that 40% were not in favour). I am sure that BEB will say it is statistically significant group of 33,000 members. I will stick my neck out and say "oh no it is not", as the group was self selecting, not at all random, nor necessarily reflecting the various age groups and disciplines etc.

Colin, I just cannot support anything which I have so little information about.

I will keep on banging on that with 33,000 members, you can address all the members directly. The activist committees and representatives (which include me) must be by passed on an issue that potential affects all and certainly commands wide ranging interest. I know the interest is wide ranging, just from by inter actions with my club members.

I hold no grudges against individuals. Yes, I want more involvement of the grass roots, less influence of the various vested interests and I abhor reporting structures that have more in common with the Victorian age, some less than democratic political movements (mainly abroad) and my time as a Trade Unionist ( a representative).

[cymaz]

Posted by Dizz on 02/05/2015 16:54:18:

Posted by cymaz on 01/05/2015 06:26:45:

If the meeting is that important..put it on the front page for all to see. Club members have a greater chance of seeing it and then asking their delegate.

I had no idea Peter Disney was going. I will email him or see him at Truro Club sometime and ask him what is going on. Now I will also ask our area chairman.

It seems too cloak and dagger....BMFA should publicise meetings more via the front web page.

Cymaz:

The subject of a National Centre along with the way forward in general for the BMFA and Areas organisation has been discussed many times in the last year at the Sub Area meetings. It will be on the agenda again next Friday. I am surprised you are not aware that I, as the Area Delegate, attend Full Council meetings (and Areas Council as required): who do you think represents the collective views of the county up the line?

All BMFA members in the county (including Country Members) are, and always have been, very welcome to attend the meetings at Trispen. I look forward to seeing you at the Clock and Key at 19.00 on Friday-mine's a pint of Tribute thanks.

Pete

Edited By Dizz on 02/05/2015 16:56:53

I will be glad to go....yours was a half wasn't it ? Cymaz (Pete. S. )

[kc]

I don't remember any previous opportunity to participate in the BMFA's own poll. In fact only this very thread has revealed the exact location. Nobody could be expected to vote accurately in a poll until the approximate location was stated .

Yesterday I started a separate section asking for a Poll on the proposed Centre. That section seems to have been diverted here. Now we know the proposed location can we have a Poll here please?

If so the heading needs to state what this thread is about because the heading seems rather obscure.

 

Publishing the name of the property and your intention to develop before putting in an offer seems the most risky business practice! Some speculator will surely jump in and purchase in order to then resell to the BMFA at a profit! The BMFA seem so dead set on having this centre that there is surely no risk to any speculator!

Edited By kc on 02/05/2015 18:32:36

[iqon]

You are not going to get a vote on where it is, it`s location is of no consequence........

[Pete B]

OK, folks, I've re-titled the thread and, for information, there have been two previous multi-page threads on the subject, here and here.

To be honest, I'm not sure a poll will serve much purpose here if the BMFA appear to be set on such a radical idea, as they are most unlikely to take any heed whatsoever of our views.

However, I'll run it past the Slim Controller.......

Pete