What is happening in Futaba?

[Erfolg]

BEB

In many ways I am not interested in the rules, although the implications of rule changes does interest me. As one of the few remaining Futaba users, i am perhaps more fearful of the impact ,as Futaba appears to be soporific in their response to market changes and opportunities.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Part of what Futaba have done is marketing led, to bring a lower cost product to market they introduced the FHSS and TFHSS range on their lower end sets and maintained FASST, FASSTest, FHSS and TFHSS on their higher range sets. While this wasn't done to meet any particular standard it has meant that if you started with a 6EX which was FASST then you'd now need to buy a 14sg or above to carry on using your existing RXs. If you'd started with the later 6J (FHSS) then you could go the 8 or 10J which are both FHSS/TFHSS but not FASST. But yes Futaba haven't kept it simple.

Still a lot of Futaba devotees in our club, but equally a few who have moved away.

[Phil Green]

│ Posted by Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 04/01/2016 14:13:22:
│ This thread is specifically about Futaba - not the way the European wireless
│ telecoms industry along with the Commission regulate themselves!

IMHO I think its all relevant discussion Dave.  No one can answer 'on-topic' because no-one outside their boardroom has the foggiest idea of what is happening in Futaba.

Phil

 

Edited By Phil Green on 05/01/2016 10:31:42

[MattyB]

Posted by Frank Skilbeck on 04/01/2016 16:54:29:

Part of what Futaba have done is marketing led, to bring a lower cost product to market they introduced the FHSS and TFHSS range on their lower end sets and maintained FASST, FASSTest, FHSS and TFHSS on their higher range sets. While this wasn't done to meet any particular standard it has meant that if you started with a 6EX which was FASST then you'd now need to buy a 14sg or above to carry on using your existing RXs. If you'd started with the later 6J (FHSS) then you could go the 8 or 10J which are both FHSS/TFHSS but not FASST. But yes Futaba haven't kept it simple.

The Futaba disease seems to be they are more worried about their new offerings undermining the sales of existing products to existing customers than they are about bringing innovative products to market or capturing new customers. The 18SZ is a case in point - as was pointed out by a previous poster it's a solid set, but has been deliberately crippled in a number of areas to avoid undermining the 18MZ which is >£1k more (for instance there is no voice callouts for flight condition changes or timers). As a result it looks underspecified against the similarly priced Jeti 16ch sets in key areas, which are also better built, are more flexible and have far better integrated telemetry features.

And as to the protocol soup... Well I understand how they got there (the decision to use a higher cost specialised chipset for FASST and the subsequent need to lower prices vs the competition), but it must be really hurting sales. No other manufacturer forces the buyer have to understand so much in order to make a purchasing decision, or face such uncertainty as to which if these many protocols has a long term future. All in all it makes it more difficult than it should be for a new user to start out with Futaba, and far harder to justify a move to Futaba from any other brand despite their reputation for high reliability.

[Willyuk]

MattyB has hit the nail on the head, I am a futaba user and as I said am thinking of upgrading. I would like a colour touch screen as In think it simplifies programming compared to buttons and dials. The SZ looks good but as Matty said is compromised in certain areas. The 18MZ also has features missing compared to say the Jeti. Futaba do not seem interested in finding out what we want and providing those features, so forcing a move away. If the SZ had verbal warnings, call outs etc. I would buy one but I am having to review my use of Futaba systems.

[Peter Christy]

I'm wary of touch screens! I don't know what the Futaba ones are like, but the JR ones used on the old PCM 10s were prone to water seepage when they got wet in the rain!. The early PCM-10s were fiddly - but possible - to change yourself. The later ones were a nightmare to change!

I've avoided them like the plague since that experience!!!

--

Pete

[A.A. Barry]

I generally go home if it starts raining

B

[Frank Skilbeck]

I'm not too bothered about one on a Tx as long as the programming interface is good, I find the button pushing on my friends 14sg not that intuitive so the touch screen on the 18sz may make things a lot easier. But as regards reliability, my phone is coming up 3 years old and the touch screen still work fine.

[Erfolg]

I am generally in agreement with all the general points being made.

I totally agree with Frank with respect to interfaces. From what i have seen most interfaces at present are clunky to a greater or lesser degree. I use a 8fg, and have come to be able to find my way around it, and some other Futaba interfaces.

Although BEB will see it as off topic (I am sure), I have been forces by my wife to get another mobile phone. Since retiring i have had a phone, although never turning it on, unless i wanted to use it, when I would not have it with me. The previous phone was a Samsung Galaxy, inherited from my wife as she moved onto a Iphone. My present phone is a Mircrosoft Lumia 640. The interesting thing to me is i found the Samsung OK in that eventually i could get to what i wanted, the big step forward is the Iphone, other than it is not really, it is just different, slightly more intuitive. For me the breakthrough is the windows 10 Microsoft phone, for me it is intuitive and I can see what i want at a glance, or if of piste, a swipe of a finger I have an index of what i want, plus a onboard help. I have only looked at "help" to find out what it does, only to find it does or can do much more than i envisage. This is where I want all RC Tx manufacturers to go.

Oh I use my phone now instead of my tablet, although i am committed to the PC still.

So it is interfaces which do it for me, including the talking timers, warnings and information, that I decide i want.

As for Futaba capability, I am happy with what my 8fg does, and I do use a few of the oddball functions. These are typically for me flying wings/delta, camber changing, some mixes. I do not want less.

[MattyB]

Posted by Willyuk on 05/01/2016 10:53:48:

MattyB has hit the nail on the head, I am a futaba user and as I said am thinking of upgrading. I would like a colour touch screen as In think it simplifies programming compared to buttons and dials. The SZ looks good but as Matty said is compromised in certain areas. The 18MZ also has features missing compared to say the Jeti. Futaba do not seem interested in finding out what we want and providing those features, so forcing a move away. If the SZ had verbal warnings, call outs etc. I would buy one but I am having to review my use of Futaba systems.

You should look at the Graupner HoTT MZ24 then (purchase link). It has a nice colour touchscreen interface and excellent telemetry integration combined with a competitive price. If I did not have my trusty Taranis this is the set I would go for (I did hold both the Jetis, but they just did not feel right in my hands unfortunately and are too heavy for DLG IMO).

Edited By MattyB on 05/01/2016 16:59:12

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 05/01/2016 14:20:08:

I am generally in agreement with all the general points being made.

I totally agree with Frank with respect to interfaces. From what i have seen most interfaces at present are clunky to a greater or lesser degree. I use a 8fg, and have come to be able to find my way around it, and some other Futaba interfaces.

Although BEB will see it as off topic (I am sure), I have been forces by my wife to get another mobile phone. Since retiring i have had a phone, although never turning it on, unless i wanted to use it, when I would not have it with me. The previous phone was a Samsung Galaxy, inherited from my wife as she moved onto a Iphone. My present phone is a Mircrosoft Lumia 640. The interesting thing to me is i found the Samsung OK in that eventually i could get to what i wanted, the big step forward is the Iphone, other than it is not really, it is just different, slightly more intuitive. For me the breakthrough is the windows 10 Microsoft phone, for me it is intuitive and I can see what i want at a glance, or if of piste, a swipe of a finger I have an index of what i want, plus a onboard help. I have only looked at "help" to find out what it does, only to find it does or can do much more than i envisage. This is where I want all RC Tx manufacturers to go.

Oh I use my phone now instead of my tablet, although i am committed to the PC still.

So it is interfaces which do it for me, including the talking timers, warnings and information, that I decide i want.

As for Futaba capability, I am happy with what my 8fg does, and I do use a few of the oddball functions. These are typically for me flying wings/delta, camber changing, some mixes. I do not want less.

Wrong Erf! I would not say that is off topic! You are using your phone as an example (albeit a rather long one - but hey I can talk!) of what you want from a programming interface, you then bring that back to your experience with Futaba. No problem, as the thread is about the where Futaba might be going and programming interfaces and Futaba's employment of them is clearly relavant. The regulation making processes of the electronics comms industry and the EU are considerably less so - especially when another thread/s on the topic already exist!

BEB

PS And that shouldn't surprise you!

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 05/01/2016 17:00:52

[Erfolg]

oooh, oooh, I have managed it, o yes!!!!! I have managed to twist your tail.

It is not just Futaba that has a long way to o,

Probably the market leader , in the last few years, is not on the money. I have observed that if the model being adjusted is not the one that they normally use, then there can be issues.

I am absolutely certain, that if Graupner (who ever they are now) have made the step to touch screen coloured interface, then it will be, a me to situation. Will Futaba be part of the crowed is another matter. If they fail to deliver on this next step, they will be declaring that they are out of the race.

Of course a pretty to view interface is nice, the software and structure behind it needs to be intuitive, as is common with both Apple and Microsoft. I really do like the tile type icons of Windows 10, there is nothing to dislike in my opinion.

Of course the other issue for Futaba is Telemetry at a price punters can afford.

Then there is the elephant in the room of a lack of cohesion in the systems sold, that are currently in use, a real pigs ear.

There is a lot to do it seems.

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

It's interesting to note the requirement for touch screens and telemetry etc. Much of this to me is useless with the exception of battery voltage monitoring. Also I like it all tucked away while flying and nowhere near my fingers.

I use the T8J and see no reason to change as this radio will do everything I need. I feel though that recent changes in protocols etc. has been necessary, Faast was possibly a mistake in all honesty but was born in a time where they felt that producing the best possible quality for the new technology was the way to go, It has since transpired that the majority wanted a cheaper system S-FHSS, I still to this day not know what the FHSS is except perhaps a waste of effort and an over complication of an existing cockup. SFHSS has proved totally reliable and should be the standard. The option to use FAAST on these radio's should be the resolution to people on Faast already who wish to move or upgrade.

[Erfolg]

Daren

In principle I know where you are coming from, and your view has reflected much of my own view of the world.

That is other than when exposed to many of the things i thought were a waste of space.

The example of mobile phones is such an example, my previous phones could do things that my latest phone does, but so clunky and inconvenient, requiring me to adapt to what the phone wanted. I hardly ever used the previous phones other than as a phone, and that very occasionally.

It is much the same with my car, there was a time when I saw anti-lock braking as a nuisance, that reversing sensors were a waste of space, that the in-built sat-nav was not required. The new car now tells me when to change gear and so on.

It has been much the same in lots of real life examples, that once i have them, some I wonder how i went on before, as these features and functions that were perceived as a waste of time would be greatly missed. Often they are providing information to help me in a real way, reducing the amount of guess work I would previously have undertaken.

Yet these things often require a good interface to be really useful.

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

Don't get me wrong, If you have a use for something or an interest in it then that is fine. I have followed the whole evolution of radio control equipment at least from the Futaba M series onwards and have even built the Micron receiver many years ago. I happily embrace and use smart phones and much of that technology. I have been building my own PC's for years and found that the software for these is slowly taking away control from the user to the point that I now hate windows software as it tries to tell you where things should go as apposed to asking you where you want it and makes it hard to navigate to where I want to find stuff.

I honestly feel that Futaba has a good system that works for me and has for 30 odd years, without exception. I am sure the others are great at what they do but Futaba is uncluttered with the stuff I dont want / need, and trust me I use some programming in some of my models. I would though discourage people from wasting money on things they'll never use at the expense of solid reliability and ease of use. I have recently purchased a new system from another manufacturer and had trouble with reliability from the moment I switched on. I've had trouble with these units before but hope things had changed over time. The programming had changed for the better but I feel the voice alert system is not well thought out and complicates the whole thing. I do have high hopes for voice alerts though and feel it will be an asset in flying where you can't be looking at your screen and flying at the same time.

[Artto Ilmanen]

Hi folks,

Now that the original Futaba FASST recievers are crazy expensive have you guys tried these Frsky made FASST compatible receivers:

Here

or

Here

or

Here

Can these be used in full range applications such as 30cc or 50cc class petrol planes?

Thanks,

Artto

Edited By Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 24/01/2016 14:51:59

[John Privett]

Artto - I've been a FrSky Taranis user for the past 18 months, but before that I used Futaba Fasst. Most of my models used the FrSky Fasst compatible TFR6 receivers. They worked just as well as the Futaba R617FS receivers with the added benefit of a more comprehensive fail-safe setting.

[Artto Ilmanen]

 

 

Posted by John Privett on 24/01/2016 11:45:13:

Artto - I've been a FrSky Taranis user for the past 18 months, but before that I used Futaba Fasst. Most of my models used the FrSky Fasst compatible TFR6 receivers. They worked just as well as the Futaba R617FS receivers with the added benefit of a more comprehensive fail-safe setting.

Thanks John!

So your applications were full range petrol / glow models and no parkfliers?

Why I'm asking is I originally went to Futaba from Spektrum due to lock-out issues I had with my Spektrum DX7

By the way, I have been considering Frysky radios but as the new Horus is still unavailable I need to keep going with my Futaba 8FG Super

Edited By Artto Ilmanen on 24/01/2016 12:23:35

[Artto Ilmanen]

I' am actually a bit confused about the Frsky transmitter range. I may have used a wrong name when I referred "Horus". The next radio to replace my 8FG Super has to be a tray - type radio such as Frsky X9E. I like the Horus but not sure if that will be avallable as a tray -version

[J D 8]

Like Daren I have used Futaba since the M series [mine still works] and have a collection of several TX's between it and my T8j. All have been reliable and that must be the number one requirement of any remote system.My favorite is still my FF7, straight forward to program,nice to handle, and a good choice of RX's.

I am often asked to fly other less experienced modelers aircraft which use other systems.It soon becomes apparent that many have no idea how to alter parameters [and I don't know either] in their up market TX's and it would have been better if they had a more basic system for them and me.

The one that kept telling me by a voice message every min how much flight time was left when I was trying to concentrate on trimming the aircraft drove me nuts,though no doubt you can shut it up somewhere in the program set up.

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

+1 for the FrSky FASST Rxs......I only have one genuine Futaba Rx...all the rest are FrSky. Cheaper & as John says better failsafe capabilities.

They are certainly NOT just Parkflyer Rxs.....I only fly "Club" size models..no 50cc aerobats or anything but they have been faultless in all my models to the limit of my vision.....

Artto, can I ask that you have a quick read of this Tutorial on how to create links.....thanks

[Artto Ilmanen]

Posted by Steve Hargreaves - Moderator on 24/01/2016 14:56:44:

+1 for the FrSky FASST Rxs......I only have one genuine Futaba Rx...all the rest are FrSky. Cheaper & as John says better failsafe capabilities.

They are certainly NOT just Parkflyer Rxs.....I only fly "Club" size models..no 50cc aerobats or anything but they have been faultless in all my models to the limit of my vision.....

Artto, can I ask that you have a quick read of this Tutorial on how to create links.....thanks

Thanks Steve

I will try this next time I want to paste a link

[MattyB]

Posted by Artto Ilmanen on 24/01/2016 12:33:09:

I' am actually a bit confused about the Frsky transmitter range. I may have used a wrong name when I referred "Horus". The next radio to replace my 8FG Super has to be a tray - type radio such as Frsky X9E. I like the Horus but not sure if that will be avallable as a tray -version

The Horus is kind of a hybrid, designed to work both for thumbers and pinchers. It isn't a true tray radio like the X9E, but it will definitely work as a tray if you want, and I'm sure there will be an aftermarket tray and harness suitable within weeks of launch. Nothing I have heard indicates FrSky will be releasing a true tray version though; given the limited appeal of tray radios globally, one in their range is plenty.

Edited By MattyB on 25/01/2016 00:57:36

[John Privett]

Posted by Artto Ilmanen on 24/01/2016 12:22:53:

Thanks John!

So your applications were full range petrol / glow models and no parkfliers?

Yes, mine were full-range glow and electric models. Also slope soarers. Certainly not park fliers!

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

Hi, Just to put my own bit in here. Model size is irrelevant except for the consequences of an accident or the amount of current drawn through the RX. Obviously if you use lots of big servos you should consider this and maybe use some sort of distribution board.