What is happening in Futaba?

[R G WILLIS]

I have noticed that Futaba have discontinued the popular 6EX FASST transmitter and no longer have an entry-level 6-channel FASST set for aircraft.. Every issue of RCME seems to show new models coming from the other manufacturers of R/C equipment - but not from Futaba. No mention of Futaba from recent show reports. Does anyone have any inside info as to what they are up to??

[Frank Skilbeck]

Futaba have dropped FASST from their lower end sets, the 6j, 8j and 10j are all FHSS, the 14 sg and up will do FHSS, FASST and FASSTest etc. Apparently Futaba have a new 18SZ out very soon.

[MattyB]

The uncharitable answer might be "imploding under the pressure" from Spektrum, FrSky et al - with their slow rate of development and love of protocol soup they seem to be losing users in droves in my area. The recent survey on this very forum indicated that was the national picture too - they have lost ~25% of their userbase in ~3 years...

Edited By MattyB on 18/05/2015 16:59:37

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

I was a committed Futaba user for many years - from setting out until 15 months ago I used only Futaba. I have to say that I always found their systems to be very reliable and to offer an extremely solid radio link. But during the later part of my time with them I became increasing frustrated at their snail-like pace of development. They seemed to me to be more interested in developing seemingly endless protocols rather than capability. I watched as first Spektrum and then later other manufacturers left them behind.

In the end I decided to wait no longer and went Taranis. A decision I have not regretted for one instant. The reliability is as good as I had experienced with Futaba and the radio link every bit as solid. But now I have much greater capability at a fraction of the cost Futaba were charging.

So, I am one of the 25% Matty refers to: are you really surprised? I happened to go Taranis - but frankly today there are a number of manufacturers offering a better spec at a lower price. I fear, as I have said on this forum before, that unless Futaba undergoes some major and fundamental change it will not be long destined to remain a significant R/C manufacturer.

BEB

Edited By Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator on 18/05/2015 18:33:25

[kc]

It seems to me Futaba have shot themselves in the foot by discontinuing the 6EX 2.4 & not having a budget priced Tx that will work with FASST Rx. It means it's not worth buying any extra FASST Rx because if your TX goes wrong all your Rx will be unusable unless you buy a very expensive TX. ( you may say Tx dont go wrong but they are still vulnerable to physical damage ) Once your Tx goes wrong or just ages you are no longer tied in to Futaba and might as well consider any other system!

Note to any budget conscious 6EX 2.4 users........an extra Rx costs about 57 pounds if you want a genuine Futaba FASST.6 channel. At the moment you can buy a complete Spektrum DX6i complete with 6 channel Rx for not much more- 69 pounds from TJD. Of course that wont last - its an old model- but it may cause a good few people to swop allegiance. And the genuine Spektrum Rx are cheaper than Futaba.......

[Bill_B]

Two of the biggest bugbears with Futaba IMHO are (1) the unnecessary tang on the side of their servo plugs and other accessories, and (2) the inconvenience of having to reverse the throttle channel for using an ESC.

Why be different from the majority, it just isn't smart in today's world.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I quite agree with (2) but take the completely opposite view of the tang, which I wish everyone else would adopt!

You can't please all of the people all of the time...

[gangster]

Bill.

Not sure who is different from who with regards the servo plug. Futaba may have been first with that style of plug I cannot be sure if there was one in between the latest one and the old "M" type one with the sticking out pins or not.

They were certainly ahead of Sanwa who then brought out a plug of the same physical size but with the wire in different order. I cannot remember what plugs Hitec and JR used before the mid 80s

To be fair to Futaba, they have maintained a greater interchangeability within their own ranges over the years.

ie a Futaba crystal was a Futaba crystal , yes I know there were SC and DC) and any PPM Futaba PPM receiver would work with any Futaba transmitter on the same frequency band . Nobody including the distributors were convinced which bit of Sanwa kit would work with any other.

And no I am not one of the raving Futaba fans, in over 40 years of RC flying I have only just recently bought a Futaba TX. It works well and does a great job but a lack lustre and unimpressive thing it is too. I guess thats why the others are wooing the buyers.

Cannot say I find reversing the throttle any problem just part of the model set up.

I agree with Martin about the tang great idea that I wish others would copy, its anybodys guess which way up the plug goes in a JR RX good job there are only two choices!

 

Edited By gangster on 18/05/2015 19:42:49

[Steve Hargreaves - Moderator]

Like BEB I've been a Futaba user almost from the day I started nearly 40 years ago but I think my current Futaba set will be my last. A Taranis set will do all & much more than a Futaba will do at arohnd a third the price. A nobrainer if evervthere was one.

Unless Futaba do something pretty spectacular in the next year or so (a big ask given their glacial pace so far) I really think they will be a spent force.

Like Martin I wish the tang was used by all the other manufacturers.....

[gangster]

Posted by kc on 18/05/2015 19:05:03:

Note to any budget conscious 6EX 2.4 users........an extra Rx costs about 57 pounds if you want a genuine Futaba FASST.6 channel. .......

I cannot help thinking most of the manufacturers are screwing us when it comes to additional receivers and are trying to make the profit there. A basic 6 channel A FHSS rx costs £40. Spektrum charge a similar amount. Then compare them to the prices of say Orange 'Lemon Corona, FRSKY etc for Receivers, a fraction of the price. I am sure the cheapos cost exactly the same price to make as the big names and are just as good. I am certainly going to look at the FRSKY Delta 8 when I want more FSSS RXs

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Paul Marsh]

I do use Futaba, have 3 2.4 tx's both pn FASST and S-FHSS.

However, one main gripe, I reckon due to a crash at Greenacres last year - I reckon the aileron plug pulled out of the rx - hence why I lost aileron, not other controls. The sockets seem quite loose, compared to Spektrum and Hitec rx's - also Futaba ones are on the top - quite easy to pull, where the others are on the side and Spektrum, especially are dead hard to pull out - sometime too hard, but unlikely to pull out.

Another minus for Futaba is the cost of rx's. Minimum £57 for a 6ch rx, where I can get a 6ch Spekky one for £23. A parkfly Futaba rx was at one time £50 for a FASST park fly, but now it's cheaper at £25

Also, there is not much in the line of models - especially larger/powersafe type for large models, where Spektrum do a few.

One last minus is model memories. All my Futaba tx's are fully, the FG8 has a measly 20 model memories, even the 14 SG has 30 - weak. The Spektrum 6 has a whopping 250!!!

[Erfolg]

As a Futaba user, that uses Fasst, that the company has dropped to the back of the pack. Both technologically and the pricing point are no longer attractive to customers, particularly when considering a new RC set..

In the area of technology it is the telemetry that is not as extensively developed and what is available is not attractively priced.

Both Spektrum and Frsky have benefited by early adopters of the concepts, in that via sales figures and feed back, they now better understand which functions are more useful than perhaps initially expected.

I think many have been surprised that voice messaging has proven to be a very useful means of informing the operator with predefined messages when thresholds have been crossed. In contrast to the suggestion that these features would be so intrusive on the flight line, they would be either banned or turned of.

It seems that Futaba now must make great strides just to catch up with the opposition. At present there is not a hint that the competition can be leap frogged. The real dilemma must be anything truly radical, could prove to be other than what the market wants. I cannot even think what conceptually is not available which I would want.

In addition to the technology issues there is a problem with respect to pricing. Futaba equipment is far to expensive when compared to the competition. In earlier times, much equipment was not reliable and durable, it was here that Futaba excelled. Now all the major competitors more than just stand comparison in these areas.

Yes, Futaba are under specified and overpriced, relative to the quality, to easily compete against all the other major brands.

Futaba could be entering into a spiral of falling sales, is reducing profitability, which reduces the scope for investment in new products and technology. This could be a very real issue, as it seems many Japanese companies are struggling, it would seem in a home market in most if not all sectors has performed poorly now for some time.

It could be all over in the near future!

Edited By Erfolg on 18/05/2015 23:50:58

[John Privett]

I'm another ex-Futaba user. My first radio was a Futaba 6M on 27MHz back in about 1973 or 74. That was in the days when not all radios were as reliable as they might have been. "Wee MacGregor's in control" was the advertising slogan for one particular manufacturer, our version of it - based on real-life experience - was "Wee MacGregor's lost control".  My Futaba radio (other people's too) was reliable,  and all radios I've had since then have been too.

After a few years off I returned to r/c flying and continued with a Futaba Challenger, then FF6, FF8 and finally FF7 on 35MHz. Then FF7 on 2.4.

Last year I bought a Taranis and haven't regretted it at all. Way more sensible prices, total flexibility in the programming and telemetry. What is there not to like?

I think Futaba suffered a bit with a lack of clarity of the future role of FASST when FHSS came out. Indeed, does anyone really know if FASST will survive? And being very late (and expensive) with telemetry too.

Edited By John Privett on 19/05/2015 00:19:03

[Frank Skilbeck]

I've read on another forum that Ripmax are going to be the European Futaba distributor after the demise of Robbe.

[ken anderson.]

I'm an ex-Futaba user also---- it was the price of RX's that did it for me...... too little for too much..

ken Anderson...ne...1 too little dept.

[Craig Carr]

I've been a futaba man ever since I started in 2001, but sadly, have to agree with what's being said here.

If I hadn't invested so much in my current gear (and loads of FASST Rxs ) I would move over to Taranis like a shot. May still do one day.

The only thing I would say is that the FASST system has (touch wood) proved 100% rock steady for reliability.

Futaba just haven't kept up with the competition, are overpriced, rested on their laurels etc.

Edited By Craig Carr on 19/05/2015 08:45:32

[Allan Bennett]

I started with Futaba in 1986 or so because then they were the ones to have. I currently use a 10CG with 35MHz and 2.4GHz modules, and a memory card for extra models beyond the standard 20 (I think). One thing I do like about Futaba receivers is that they don't need "satellites", and I do like the tangs on their servo plugs -- makes it impossible to reverse connect things in the field.

I recently needed PPM capability for my quad, so I bought a FrSky FASST-compatible PPM receiver at less than half the price of my standard Futaba R617 receivers. I suspect I'll be buying more FrSky if I need more receivers, and maybe even a Taranis when my trannie wears out. But at the moment I've got too much invested in Futaba receivers to contemplate changing.

P.S. I used to own a Betamax -- is it a case of deja vu?

Edited By Allan Bennett on 19/05/2015 08:57:51

[Adrian Smith 1]

As has been alluded to earlier in this thread a lot of the problem lies with the Japanese economy. The title may be should read What's happening in Japan?Rather than What's happening in Futaba? One of the constituents of this package is cost of Japanese products and Futaba is no different. The strength of the yen vs sterling has be an issue for as long as I can remember and probably will remain so. A good example of this is the difficulty I had obtaining Hatori exhaust systems and the horrendous cost. Nobody wants to stock them due to consumer resistance to the cost of what is a good quality product. Hence, with someone like Futaba it may be that when sales drop, R&D suffers and the competition moves in.

As to the bells and whistles on Futaba TXs, a classic example is what I experienced recently with my 7C 2.4 TX when trying to find out how to set up two elevator servos, a fairly basic requirement for flyer I think you would agree. Even on Futaba's query site is suggested this was not possible with this set. It fact it is using the Ailevator setup. Something that is alluded to in the manual but it does properly explain it and certainly not which channels to use, it clearly is possible. It was only with helpful forums like this that I found out the correct way to do it.

As a die hard Futaba user for years even I am thinking about changing to another brand. If people like me are considering this then it's a very slippery slope that Futaba is on.

Edited By Adrian Smith 1 on 19/05/2015 09:25:31

[Martyn K]

Similar experience here. I was a lifelong Futaba User going back to a M2 in about 1978.

I bought my Taranis about 12 months ago, immediately regretted it, learned to program it, live with it and now love it. (Although I am a bit bothered about their approach to the EU firmware issue documented here recently).

However, I still have my Futaba 8G which I still use (on my older or less important models). I am now really struggling to program it to do what I want, for example, I have a Precedent T240 and I wanted to set up differential aileron. I only needed 5 channels so a 6 channel receiver was used. Can you set up the 2nd aileron on a 6 channel receiver - nope you need an 8 channel receiver because Futaba deemed that Channel 7 will be Aileron2..

So back to mechanical differential on that model, but it just emphasises just how much work Futaba have got to do to get into the 21st century..

(BTW - the only receiver failure I have ever had was on a Futaba Rx - they are not invincible)

Martyn

[Erfolg]

Although I have been critical with some respects of Futaba, I do recognise that in the past, until very recently, Futaba has been the benchmark for both operational performance and reliability. To the extent many threads resound to the theme I will not trust my valued model to anything else. Less valued models often using Tier 2 Rxs.

I have not once, well may be once, had an issue with the radio link with Futaba. This has been my experience with 27,35 and the same with 2.4 Fasst.

Even now i am aware of one very popular brand, where the bind appears to be randomly lost, and some models experiencing issues in flight. Users of this range of products do seem to be very satisfied, and the issues could simply be a function of the vast number of users.

However, this does not seem to be the case with Frsky, which has to date matched Futaba performance reliability and for some of their products have a greater range of available features at a much lower purchase price.

Although I still believe that Futaba are at the rear of the pack, for most aspects other than matching the RC performance of other manufactures.

[..]

Futaba 14SG owner & it's great, no gripes from me and no plans to change anytime soon. There is so much more choice with almost every saleable item now than there was 20 years ago.

I will worrie when they stop producing but until then all's good.

[gangster]

Posted by Martyn K on 19/05/2015 09:57:56:

However, I still have my Futaba 8G which I still use (on my older or less important models). I am now really struggling to program it to do what I want, for example, I have a Precedent T240 and I wanted to set up differential aileron. I only needed 5 channels so a 6 channel receiver was used. Can you set up the 2nd aileron on a 6 channel receiver - nope you need an 8 channel receiver because Futaba deemed that Channel 7 will be Aileron2..

Martyn All may not be lost here. I thought I had the same problem with my 8J I think I got round it by using the flap program and am pretty sure that let me set up differential as well by fannying around with the throws. I will have a look in a bit might be something on here about it I did ask the question on the forum

Martyn

[gangster]

Martyn

Have a look at this post it might help although its a totally different tranny involved

All Forum Topics > Futaba > Dual ailerons on T8J with 6 channel receiver

[MattyB]

Posted by Adrian Smith 1 on 19/05/2015 09:24:31:

As has been alluded to earlier in this thread a lot of the problem lies with the Japanese economy. The title may be should read What's happening in Japan? Rather than What's happening in Futaba? One of the constituents of this package is cost of Japanese products and Futaba is no different. The strength of the yen vs sterling has be an issue for as long as I can remember and probably will remain so. A good example of this is the difficulty I had obtaining Hatori exhaust systems and the horrendous cost. Nobody wants to stock them due to consumer resistance to the cost of what is a good quality product. Hence, with someone like Futaba it may be that when sales drop, R&D suffers and the competition moves in.

...As a die hard Futaba user for years even I am thinking about changing to another brand. If people like me are considering this then it's a very slippery slope that Futaba is on.

You are right that the general economic situation in Japan does not help Futaba, but I am not certain that can really explain away all their pricing and lack of development. I would put that down to two main factors...

1. Their old business model is broken. For many years Futaba (alongside JR) represented the gold standard in RC reliability, so could justify their pricing easily - did you really want to trust your pride and joy to cheaper, less reliable gear? Now that paradigm is well and truly busted for both manufacturers; there is excellent, reliable kit available at every price point Futaba competes in and a few they don't. FrSky and Hobbyking are attacking the lower end with gear capable enough to worry an 18MZ for 1/15th the price. Most damagingly Spektrum seem to have hoovered up the middle "Sunday pilot" ground and some of the high end users with their rapid product development, capable gear, solid support and brilliant BNF concept. Finally Jeti, Weatronic and now JR have very nice premium products; the Jetis in particular are garnering a great reputation becuase of the excellent telemetry integration, range of sensors, flexible mixing and matchless build quality. The DS16 is sold at a price that makes an 18MZ look absolutely ridiculous by comparison.
2. RC is not their core business. Futaba is a pretty big company, and from what I have read most of it's income comes from (and R&D investment is in) the industrial arm. With the problems outlined in point 1 they may have just decided to ramp down investment in RC over time as it no longer gives good enough returns.

All this is a big issue for them - unlike FrSky or Jeti they still have all the costs and complexity of their marketing and distribution channels to support, so need new sets like the 18SZ to come in at prices that don't cannabilize their existing range. However, doing that makes them look hopelessly expensive compared to most of the competition. Not an easy circle to square.

Edited By MattyB on 19/05/2015 12:35:09