Kit builders, what would you like???

[Bucksboy]

Looks like we were 40% of those interested between us. A shame but I totally understand, you can't fault his logic and wish Richard all the very best. Maybe, after I've built all the Brian Taylor planes I like I'll get around to a LA 7, it's certainly very pretty.

[RICHARD WILLS]

We have a 10cc size Hurricane that has always been well received but now no longer even warrants buying in a batch . I have also dabbled in reviews and adverts and never seen value for money in return .

I dont want to appear negative but we have to be realistic and look at all of the evidence. Very soon people who want to build kits will not be able to buy one .It is that simple.

The Warbirds Replicas Spitfire thread has nearly 20,000 views on this forum yet it amounts to a paltry amount of sales despite the kit receiving compliment after compliment ,. That is Britains number one aeroplane cut on the best laser cutter and developed over a ten year period by a company that has specialised in that area for twenty five years . You cant give it a better shot than that .

This forum is the only way forward because you have to get all of the people who genuinely want to build kits for the next ten years to get together and say what they want, with an honesty that is tempered by the fact that the last kit manufacturers are about to walk out of the door for good.

It will happen , I can absolutely guarantee it . But it is avoidable . The first thing to do is to acknowledge the immediate problem . All this talk of a resurgence etc is not based on fact or sales figures . As Kevin B said , have a look at Flair . We all loved their stuff , and nice guys too , but what a sad end . Galaxy models etc etc.

So , If we are all honest and can see our raft being swept to the edge of the falls , what do we do ?

Close ranks and communicate . We are odd balls , But if you stick a load of oddballs in a village hall (virtually )

you have a club . Then you ask the club what they want . It's no good sitting on your hands and hoping that somebody is going to read your mind or dreaming of something that only you want . There has to be an element of compromise . But what other manufacturer has ever approached you in this way or will ever again ?

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

I totally agree, I am in this very boat also. I keep going for a few reasons, it's not to make money though or I would have sunk a long time ago. I have found that this site has been very helpful. to both me and my customers in that it allows me to do this very thing as Richard is doing. Also Facebook has been great and RCM+E has been very supportive to me for which I am eternally grateful. The key to success is awareness. The model trade is moving rapidly in all directions but there is still a strong interest in model building. Particularly from those who entered modelling with foamies strangely. What they lack is the confidence to get started, I hear that constantly and there is a big hole in the hobby that was once filled by experienced modellers who were only too happy to help and advise.

If we are to survive, the hobby needs structure. Low cost beginners kits £40 or so traditional build. This backed up by the magazines running a start to finish builders guide on a regular, maybe even repetetive basis as they did years ago. Next, slightly more complex models and guides to building them until we reach the lofty heights of scale models.

All sounds a bit ambitious I realize but without some structure for new builders to learn from it won't ever happen.

[kc]

There was a time when RCME and all the magazines had a kit review in each issue. Usually a British kit too, sometimes several in each issue. ( a kit review not an ARTF assembly job! ) I think manufacturers of proper kits need to ensure the magazines review their model.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

I don't sell kits but i do take notice at field, still by a long way the 40-60 model is the most popular, folk can afford more than one and kit them out, get bigger n they're mostly one offs. Have larger scale models ever been the bread winners ? i very much doubt it myself.

There's a high turnover rate among the smaller models also, they get flown/crashed more, why do folk buy the shiney ARTF ? because it looks scale and they don't have to spend the time or effort doing it, whether a home built one looks better is irrelevant to the buyer, they want what they want. And most are like myself...pretty average at a scale jobbie, can i manage a sports job to a decent standard ? Yep but not many kits about

John

[MattyB]

Posted by Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters on 13/12/2016 17:43:10:

If we are to survive, the hobby needs structure. Low cost beginners kits £40 or so traditional build. This backed up by the magazines running a start to finish builders guide on a regular, maybe even repetetive basis as they did years ago. Next, slightly more complex models and guides to building them until we reach the lofty heights of scale models.

All sounds a bit ambitious I realize but without some structure for new builders to learn from it won't ever happen.

I hope you are right Daren, but nothing I see at the clubs near me indicates that traditional building in any form will survive beyond the baby boomer generation. It's for one very simple reason - it takes too long when there are so many compelling pastimes that take less time and effort.

I agree building will always exist in some form, but it has to take less time than it does now to be appealing. For some that means a change of materials (i.e. cheap and simple foamboard models), but for many the traditional fixed wing plane will be replaced by multirotors, especially 250 FPV racers. They may not be a popular machine on this forum, but I have probably seen four or five times as many built by club mates as fixed wing scratch, plan or kit builds. I guess this is partly because of the novelty and compelling experience of FPV flying, and partly because you can build one in a few evenings.

Edited By MattyB on 13/12/2016 18:59:05

[gillyg1]

Having read all this thread and spoken to Richard this afternoon, Richard needs at least 30 to confirm/ agree on what we want, that's the minimum before any cutting begins, was the same with the single engine debate, we couldn't agree so no go. As mentioned else where, think the mags are full of model reviews, artf write ups, where's the traditional build reviews???, I've still got the build articles for the BT Kingfisher which was spread over x3 mags. Yes the mags should get behind traditional building, you never know sales might even go up, if they did a spitfire Mk 9 review, of around 60fs size, from a British kit producer. I know there's loads of build threads on here, but not like having the said article in the shed with you to refer to, my Wi-Fi wont reach to the workshop down the garden.

Enough said, out of 20,000 hits you think at least 30 would agree to buy one. I for one don't want to see Richards business go down the pan, or diversify to something else

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

You have just made the point for me Matty. You say that you dont see any encouring signs of building. That's because just the problem. The shops are full of foam and multirotors. That's what people see so that's what they buy. There are many small manufacturers of kits who don't advertise because they can't afford it. The result is that the public don't see it so dont buy it. An awful lot of these companies never get seen.

My solution so far is to put it on facebook, share trade stands with larger companies at shows and have displays at the main shows, wear the company name on t shirts and jackets. Be visible and aproachable. Talk to the customers about what you do. hand out leaflets etc. 5,000 leaflets cost £75.00 or less.

[Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters]

That would make perfect sense, I think Richard you would do well to decide on the most popular idea on this thread, Invite firm orders by email and go from there. Decide on a minimum number of orders and if you don't get them then cancel the project. This is similar to what happened with my Zero, the only difference is that for me it was combined with an excercise in ironing out any issues with the kit. Everybody wins initial customers get a great kit at a reduced cost, in return I get feedback on the kit and an opportunity to improve it and iron out any wrinkles to satisfy the wants and needs of the customer and the kit is released for sale. I have to say though that having the kit reviewed is very worthwhile.

[Flyer]

After many years of 'non building' I have taken part in the PSSA's mass build A4 Skyhawk. I have found that I have enjoyed the project so much that I will, from now on, look to build from plans, and will be trying an own design.

I think there are many valid points made above. Sadly, due to so called 'cheap' ARTF's , the UK kit market has been decimated to a 'hobby' status. Some companies have evloved, and have looked at their 'niche'. As a bean counter, I always suggest to clients that they look at the 'profit' not turnover. It is this that is lacking in kit design. So, it may well be that the kit designers obtain 'royalties' from their designs, rather than footing the expense of kit production.

I can see the future being in the supply of plans with laser cut formers, ribs etc, with the designer being paid 'per plan sold'. This may well be the new way forward. Companies with the capability of cutting formers for you will be sent a file, and it is produced upon demand.

Whilst traditional kit manufacturers may well dwindle, I do not see that trhe designers will too. It is a compromise, but maybe we need to look on this as a hobby and not a vocation. You may well not get financially rich producing kits, but nothing beats the satisfaction of taking an idea and getting it to fly.

The points of several outwardly diverse businesses getting together to put fgorward a design is , I feel, the future.

And, given that work takes up most of my time, the biggest problem I have with chosing a kit to build, is having the physical time to build it!

Don't give up on kit's, juts find a way to let people chose how much of a kit they would like to buy.

[Jon H]

good to see a healthy debate on a thread without the usual forum nonsense

One point I wanted to raise quickly was the argument of build time of a kit vs ARTF.

Yes a kit will usually be longer, but if we take a foam wing and box fuselage with round bits on it building can be really quick, much faster than a laser cut set of ribs and spars.

Both Richard and Daren are offering this type of really quick build kit which is simple to make and good for novices to get into.

A friend bought a funfighter spit from Daren at the LMA Gaydon show and in only a few evenings has the wing done and fuselage structure more or less complete.

So to all those reading this thread and thinking that all this talk of kits is great but they take too long I urge you to buy one and see. I think you will be surprised.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[David Davis]

How many firm orders for the Hurricane would you need in order to produce a batch Richard?

Come on lads it's Christmas!

Edited By David Davis on 14/12/2016 08:25:50

[Piers Bowlan]

Posted by kc on 13/12/2016 11:04:32:

It seems that to get lots of people building the same model you need to hype the thing up until lots of people want a kit. For example the Mass Build here on the forum or the 'free' magazine plans that need an expensive set of laser cut parts to build easily.

Good point kc. The Skywriter has been voted the 2017 Mass Build yet it is an unexceptional model in my humble view (sorry Lindsay!). More to the point the CNC complete set is £130. That is for the plan and all the wood but it doesn't include wheels, spinner, control horns/clevis etc. unlike Richard's or Daren's kits which look like phenomenal value in this day and age. I know that advertising is expensive but perhaps they need more exposure, I hadn't even heard of Richards company yet his kits look superb.

 

Edited By Piers Bowlan on 14/12/2016 08:29:59

[Jon H]

I'm with you percy. Framing up an open structure wing takes no time, but to fully sheet it or add capping strips will take a bit longer.

but a foam wing is more or less done as soon as you put the leading edges on. That said I managed to build my Flair Nieuport 17 in 3 weeks, although for 2 of them I was off work on my summer holiday. But even so, a few hours in the morning, long lunch with a beer, then another few in the afternoon. It was far from a full time build.

While I really don't have the space for a new model, but once my very long winter maintenance list is out of the way I might see if I can do a 'speed build' of Richards yak which I have waiting in the corner of my room (with about 5 other models). Perhaps this will encourage people?

David, I would assume somewhere around 5 minimum to make it worth while. I personally cant understand why Hurricane kits are not flying off the shelves.

[Lorenz Mueller]

I think we are starting to mix two issues here. One is getting new people into kit building. That to me is a losing battle. The age mix at my club speaks for itself- at 52 I feel I'm one of the younger members. I guess we are going to be replaced by a bunch of quad copter controller programming nerds. How to address this issue other than at club level, I have no idea.

But the thread is calling out to kit builders. So probably most of us have started out with building a Spitfire and/or a Messerschmitt 109. I have both, so that niche is filled. But what comes afterwards? The choice of aeroplanes begging to be built, and the diversity of likes and dislikes is just enormous. For example there are so many P-51s out there it just does not tempt me in the least. On the other hand I probably would be the only buyer of, say, a Bristol Bulldog, de Havilland Hornet, Focke Wulf TA-154. All handsome to me, incidentally all available as plans, but just too obscure to warrant kitting. The question of size further splits up the demand for any likely type. Of Richard's models, I have inquired for a bomber Ju-88, and might consider a La-7. So maybe the only valid answer is plans, and laser cutting on demand. Whether that will ever be enough to live off, I doubt.

Lorenz

[Michael Ramsay-Fraser]

My feeling is that a large part of the problem is the lack of skills attributed to guys below a certain age. I, probably like most on this forum, am of an age where I learned (from my father) how to fix things. Most men under 40 can't even change a plug these days and why would they when every appliance comes with a new one bonded on. How often do we here about people struggling with flat pack furniture? If someone can't even put together a bookcase from Ikea, what chance is there of them successfully completing one of Richards kits? Absolutly zero.

The skills that trad builders have started with Airfix and Keil Kraft kits and expanded from there. Along the way, we've developed other skills (restoring classic cars, in my case) that have helped us through life. Plumbing, re-wiring, building and a host of other skills are probably things most of our forum users are familiar with or know someone who is.

Sadly, anyone under 30 is of a mind to throw something away if it doesn't work and buy a new one. If something in the house doesn't work, call an electrician or plumber.

The sad fact is that many people under a certain age just don't have the ability to think through the processes of building anything more complex that your average ARTF. There simply won't be any demand for kits in the very near future (very sadly, in my view) and the only self builds that we are likely to see will be by 'model geeks' doing scratch builds.

[MattyB]

Posted by Daren Graham - Cambria Funfighters on 13/12/2016 20:31:07:

You have just made the point for me Matty. You say that you dont see any encouring signs of building. That's just the problem. The shops are full of foam and multirotors. That's what people see so that's what they buy. There are many small manufacturers of kits who don't advertise because they can't afford it. The result is that the public don't see it so dont buy it. An awful lot of these companies never get seen.

I agree there is an element of that, but it is only part of the issue. There are quite a few reasons people are going in a different direction , and it is not just affecting kit companies - the whole shape of the hobby is changing:

• Time - Foam and multirotor models are quick to build, far faster than conventional models. You can put a 250 racer together in a few evenings (which for most people below the age of 30 is still an age!); compare that with the weeks or months needed for a newcomer to build even a relatively simple fixed wing kit (yes I know an experienced builder is much quicker, but those are not the people we are talking about here) and it's obvious which they will prefer.
• Storage/building space and equipment needed - We all live in houses with more stuff in them nowadays, and space is at a premium especially for those renting and sharing below the age of 30. Multis (especially the 250s) are small and easy to work on with the minimum of kit, and there is next to no auxiliary field equipment needed.
• Flying - Rightly or wrongly newbies perceive they can fly the small multirotors and parkflier foamies anywhere without having to join a club. This is undoubtedly a problem (see the EASA threads) but it is a perceived advantage in the eyes of newcomers to the hobby.
• Expertise - Far less expertise needs to be developed to build a multirotor or PNF foamie; if the goal is to learn to fly they can start with a RTF variant and a sim, then having watched a few soldering videos on Youtube build their own 250 in a few evenings. You may say "Where is the fun/reward in that?" and I agree (personally soldering is one of my least favourite jobs even as a big electric fan!), but the evidence shows this is not putting people off.
• Newness - FPV is new, it's in the public eye, it gives an immersive experience more akin to a flying and there are big money competitions and television coverage. By comparison if you are a 16 year old kid a boxy trainer flown line of sight is, well lets be polite... not as exciting.

The real proof though is the explosion in suppliers for multirotor parts and airframes. Businesses like Armattan or TBS that are the multirotor equivalent of a Warbird Replicas and started as cottage industries have exploded in size in recent times. These businesses do not advertise in the conventional sense, but using forums, Youtube and social media they have grown incredibly quickly and are in rude health supplying kit all over the world. That is not an accident - it's a reflection that multirotors are new, exciting, have attracted a new audience are hear to stay.

Edited By MattyB on 14/12/2016 11:01:07

[Dai Fledermaus]

I think MR-F has nailed it. Our Sons and Grandsons, even if they have ability or interest to make, repair or rebuild something, and in most cases they don't, they can't be bothered. They have other things going on in their lives

Our Son for example, although he did A level woodwork in school, with a little assistance from yours truly when it came to homework and projects ( that's between us remember don't tell anyone ) has no interest in doing anything around the house. If he needs anything done, he is fortunate enough to be able to afford to get a man in to do it. I on the other hand, although I could afford it if I wanted to, would only get a tradesman in as a last resort. He and I have different priorities, it's as simple as that.

For me the thrill of building and then flying a model aircraft just can't be beaten. ARTF's or something else off the shelf just doesn't do it for me.

[Jon H]

Lorenz i agree with you. I like to do unusual subjects like a P39, the La7, Pe2 or the Whirlwind as discussed on the thread.

The trouble is they are unusual, and so their market is very limited.

[MattyB]

Posted by Lorenz Mueller on 14/12/2016 10:18:19:

I think we are starting to mix two issues here. One is getting new people into kit building. That to me is a losing battle. The age mix at my club speaks for itself - at 52 I feel I'm one of the younger members. I guess we are going to be replaced by a bunch of quad copter controller programming nerds. How to address this issue other than at club level, I have no idea.

Indeed. The contrast in demographics between pages 40-43 of this months BMFA news (a Drone Worlds FPV racing qualifier) and the rest of the magazine probably better summarises the issue here than any post can. How many of those participants would want to build a traditional fixed wing plan, kit or even ARTF and fly it line of sight?

[Jon H]

Posted by MattyB on 14/12/2016 12:46:22:

Posted by Lorenz Mueller on 14/12/2016 10:18:19:

I think we are starting to mix two issues here. One is getting new people into kit building. That to me is a losing battle. The age mix at my club speaks for itself - at 52 I feel I'm one of the younger members. I guess we are going to be replaced by a bunch of quad copter controller programming nerds. How to address this issue other than at club level, I have no idea.

Indeed. The contrast in demographics between pages 40-43 of this months BMFA news (a Drone Worlds FPV racing qualifier) and the rest of the magazine probably better summarises the issue here than any post can. How many of those participants would want to build a traditional fixed wing plan, kit or even ARTF and fly it line of sight?

While i agree completely that fpv quad racing guys are unlikely to build a trad kit thats not a totally fair comparison as its crossing lines of interest. I mean i dont care how quickly i can build a quad, they are nasty and i hate them. If other guys get a kick out of them great, but demented wasps dont do it for me so i will never build one unless at gunpoint.

The idea of this thread is to take existing fixed wing guys and if they dont build ask why, then see what can be done about it, and to take existing builders and ask them what they want to see on sale and if they would actually then buy it.

Its been quite successful up to the last point, loads of ideas, good discussion then the metaphorical tumbleweed crossed the order books and it was all over!

Its not a criticism, it just shows why the thread was started in the first place

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Is it a thread asking fixed wing guys what they'd buy or build or purely another niche being asked ?

The group i fly with are as likely to build a FPV racing Quad as they are to build a Spit or an Hurricane.

Would they buy warbirds ? No. Are they capable builders ? Yes.

John

[RICHARD WILLS]

There have been some very good points made here with no punches pulled . Michael Ramsey -F pretty much hit the nail on the head . Society has changed and we are all of a bygone era regardless of our actual ages.

I think its time to look after ourselves . I few years ago I did a group build experiment at our local club . (John Harper has recently done the same) . I noticed in the 100+ membership that there was a fascination in the dark art of balsa bashing in a small percentage of the ARTF flyers . But for all of the reasons mentioned they were reluctant to make "fools" of themselves. So I knocked up a very simple warbird , a Yak which contains no more parts then the old mick reeves gangster and arranged for each newbie to have an experienced build buddy . I made the ten kits at my own expense and over a period of three evenings we built them in the village hall , right through to brown paper covering . There was no obligation on the part of the newbies and they had an option to buy their creation at the end at cost . It was fascinating , The first night they were very subdued and cautious , but by the third night they were so confident they almost needed slowing down . "Its only wood" was our mantra.

As Darren said , we need new people and a proportion of the ARTF guys are looking over the fence but need a bridge . What if we offered something like the Yak to each club at cost (£79) for group builds led by an expert on this forum ? The proviso would be that it would have to be 4 or more per club . The long term benefit for us is that they will move on to the next step and that will justify more designs for you chaps. If a sport model or generic warbird is more acceptable then so be it . But think as simple as gangster and keep in mind that the La7 and Yak are sorted kits at half almost half price. This could not happen till January and it would only be possible by economy of scale . So we probably need about 50 of only one type .