Re: Death of IC

[Ultymate]

It's degenerated into the usual tit for tat argument where everyone thinks what they do is best which was almost inevitable when the author typed in the title at post#1

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by John Stainforth on 03/02/2018 13:52:56:

I have to disagree with BEB - I think this has been a good discussion of the pros and cons of i.c. and electric model engines (witness the great interest it has provoked) that has been neither tedious nor wandered far off topic. One of the disadvantages of i.c. engines versus electric is the oily mess they make, and some contributors to this discussion are now merely pointing out that with more modern oils and lower oil contents it's not such a bad issue as it was.

Agreed. Laser are the only maker that I'm aware of who are actively advising that safe reductions can be made to oil content with their existing engines and working towards further reductions so isn't it reasonable that they feature in this aspect of the discussion?

Aren't spares prices, product support, approachability and forthcoming development are all relevant to the future of IC engines?

Edited By Martin Harris on 03/02/2018 14:04:36

[Erfolg]

Without some indicative numbers as to the general sales of IC engines, in the UK and world wide, we cannot have any idea as to the general direction of travel.

Where and the how the engines will be manufactured is yet another issue. Going way back, the methods used to manufacture engines, favoured Die Casting, if only you could get the numbers to make the investment in tooling viable. Turning operations were generally slow, requiring a skilled man, using the equipment that most UK engine manufacturers used. Most of these companies initially were set up after WW2 by people who directly or indirectly had there most obvious employment options disrupted by peace time. The numbers of pieces required generally did not even warrant manufacture by either Capstan Lathes or Autos, plus many of the companies wanted to do as much in house as possible, as many were set up by tradesmen.

I was thinking, that if the numbers are high enough, Bar Stock production could possibly be cheaper and faster than Die Casting or Investment Casting. That is using NC machines today. Where the problem of getting rid of the swarf is more of an issue than the accuracy, all done at great speed. With enough turnover it could be very attractive to contract out manufacture. The business essentially being a management, assembly (perhaps) and marketing organisation. The "fly in the ointment" is establishing sufficient reputation to warrant the initial contract spend. I am guessing, very much guessing, that this form of production is best suited to the Koreas of this world, technologically savvy, and pretty entrepreneurial and the cost per item are low..

Yet from the perspective of the +50cc engines, I guess these will still tend to be rough and ready (comparatively) die cast bodies, chain saw and other similar application engines, modified to enable model usage. So many of this type of engine is sold, built into gardening and building applications, where the sales price of the complete item is very low, I do wonder where the model application price comes from. I am guessing the margins make the mods worthwhile, for some to have a punt.

Although I do not have any intention of resurrecting my IC engines, I have enquired and heard others discuss the purchase of aftermarket silencers, for Glo engines where the owner knows in their own heart, that their engine is to noisy for todays usage. Surprisingly a after market silencer seems to be as costly as buying a new engine in many instances. If this aspect is as true as I think it probably is, it could also provide a reason why fewer people are tempted to fly IC (Glo), even when they have an engine.

Yet it all comes down to numbers sold, to make the financial numbers make sense.

Edited By Erfolg on 03/02/2018 14:08:30

Edited By Erfolg on 03/02/2018 14:10:04

[Keith Berriman]

Having followed this thread with interest I have been looking at my set up and put this thought forward

It applies to my fleet of models and assumes same Tx/Rx servo set up and assumes a Lipo Charger and starter motor are about the same, prices shown below are best estimates

So I have 9 3S batteries 2200 at £160 3 x 300 watt motors and 40 amp ESC at £140 and 3 models at average price totaling £300 so all in £600 and that gives me best flight time 50 mins before any recharge

My IC set up is 3 x 46 two strokes at budget price £250, 3 models at £360 1 gallon Fuel ( Laser 5 ) £20 all up total £630. The only difference is I estimate it would take me over 450 mins to use the 4.5lts fuel before buying another gallon

I appreciate there is going to be comments re battery life and the batteries are rechargeable but then they are on the downward slope to be replaced in the future .

Trust I dont get shot down in flames

[John Stainforth]

The energy density of batteries versus fuel is the biggest reason I don't fly electric model planes more than i.c. ones. I anticipate that my interest in electric planes will increase as the energy density of the batteries increases.

[Jon H]

Sorry BEB, I wasn't intending to hijack anything.

To put a lid on the 180 petrol bit, I am nervous for all the obvious reasons. I am sure anyone who has developed something from scratch would be similarly concerned about how it would be received by the wider community. Be that a story, a song, a play, a piece of art or a product, the feedback from those who have bought it/seen it would be important to you. As this is essentially my baby and has to live up to both my expectation and the expectation our customers have of a Laser product, its got some big shoes to fill.

I appreciate the supportive comments though so thanks for that.

To answer some of the other points modern glow engines, 4 stroke especially, would most likely be fine on oil at 10%. My nitro car runs a 21 size two stroke at nearly 40,000rpm and uses model technics quickspeed 16 glow fuel with is 16% nitro and 12% oil. Given that this engine is under some serious stress our relatively slow 2 and 4 strokes in aircraft would be quite happy on 10%. In the case of a 4 stroke the lubricant is not diluted by the fuel and so lower oil content could be used. I know the evo radials use 5% oil and I have tested some Lasers on 5% oil and had no trouble over the full flying season I tested. I will be testing more engines with 5% oil as time allows. I also believe model technics did some testing years ago and found that about 1.5% was the critical point.

The snag is not all oils are created equal and 20% chip fat wont be as good as 2% mobil 1 or whatever. Manufacturers need to cover their backsides a bit to prevent failures due to improper lubricants. by the by this is why Laser don't publish details of max engine temperature for telemetry users as temperature is only one variable when it comes to engine health.

Erflog is also correct with his comments about NC machining making things easier for new companies to produce engines. Pressure die casting is not a cheap thing to set up and while NC gear isn't cheap either you can do more with your investment as the machine will make more than one bit. Kolm engines are all machined from solid and they are one of the more recent additions to the ic market. With more and more CAD literate people coming along I think we could see more engines made from solid material in the future.

As for noise the responsibility is with the builder of the model. you could hardly have a go at Ferrari because you got a speeding ticket and its the same with our engines. I do however agree that the supplied mufflers with many petrol engines are woefully inadequate and it would actually be better to supply nothing at all.

Perhaps we could help ourselves though and start a thread listing details of certain mufflers that work well on various engines? a list of quiet props might be handy too

[Simon Chaddock]

Just swapping an IC engine for an electric set in any particular model does rather over look the differences between the two forms of power.

If the model is designed from scratch to make best use of the characteristics of electric power (just as a model is designed with IC in mind) its performance/flight time ratio can be significantly improved.

In one of my scale planes 9 x 2200 3S would give a total flight time much closer to the IC "1 gallon" duration.

.

[Biggles' Elder Brother - Moderator]

Posted by John Stainforth on 03/02/2018 13:52:56:

I have to disagree with BEB - I think this has been a good discussion of the pros and cons of i.c. and electric model engines (witness the great interest it has provoked) that has been neither tedious nor wandered far off topic. One of the disadvantages of i.c. engines versus electric is the oily mess they make, and some contributors to this discussion are now merely pointing out that with more modern oils and lower oil contents it's not such a bad issue as it was.

It isn't really up for debate John!

BEB

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[spudsy]

There is one thing about I/c engines that has not been mentioned, that is that quite a lot of people seem to enjoy fiddling about with them. Both clubs that I belong to seem to have a bunch of people who don't fly a lot but are forever running motors and adjusting this that and the other.i am sure that is what they enjoy rather than actually flying.

[eflightray]

I flew IC power from about the mid 50's to the mid 80's when I converted to electric.

Over these past years the only thing I would have missed and liked, was a 4-stroke petrol engine.

When 4-stroke glows were initially available, I couldn't afford one.

Now 4-stroke petrol engines are available, and although I could afford one, I just can't justify one, my main interest is multi motor models, which electric power is so ideal for.

But then, unless we get a bit more flying weather this year, there is a great temptation to give up modeling, (It's an age thing, plus 60 years of modeling), and actually have a life, what's left of it.

Ray.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[cymaz]

Posted by Percy Verance on 03/02/2018 16:23:06:

I think you'll probably find they don't actually enjoy​ fiddling spudsy, it's just that they haven't a clue what they're doing. Once a motor has been set up correctly for the fuel and prop you use, there shouldn't really be any need to fiddle any further. I'd suggest they buy a Laser. I didn't touch the mixture needle on my Laser 1.50 in years. I just filled the tank and flew it.......

I very rarely touch my glows or petrols for that matter. Maybe if it’s very cold or very hot weather will need only a click or two on the mail needle. I have a glow twin and glow four engine planes...both are reliable but then I am careful, no, fastidious about fuel cleanliness , glow plug condition and needle setting. I understand the quick and clean argument with electric. And I’ve seen a few go up in flames very quickly.

At the risk of repeating myself...each to his own. There will be enough IC fliers to keep the cnc machines in China and this country for a while yet.

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

Posted by Percy Verance on 03/02/2018 16:23:06:

I think you'll probably find they don't actually enjoy​ fiddling spudsy, it's just that they haven't a clue what they're doing. Once a motor has been set up correctly for the fuel and prop you use, there shouldn't really be any need to fiddle any further. I'd suggest they buy a Laser. I didn't touch the mixture needle on my Laser 1.50 in years. I just filled the tank and flew it.......

Goes for all decent engines Percy.

[spudsy]

Sorry chaps, but they do have decent engines,saito,os laser ect.it's almost that running the things and adjusting is what they enjoy.curing misfires that no one else hears, leaning out, richening up, trying new plugs.checking with tachos, changing fuel mixes, the list seems endless.

[Former Member]

[This posting has been removed]

[Erfolg]

A lot depends on what is meant by death.

I would consider Diesels as dead, at best Zombies. Hardly ever seen, they are about, certainly not in healthy numbers. They are now a niche, where a few companies make a few, a few fly with them.

If the rest of the ICs are approached in a similar way, it becomes apparent that Glo has seen a significant decline in usage. Not as endangered as Diesels, although I suspect that the number of engines is very much reduced, certainly from the heyday.

I suspect that 4 strokes, have tended to be niche in recent years. It is as much the engineering, the reduction in noise compared to Glo or Diesel that justifies there continued support. These are engines for those who are likely to admire a Lamborghini or Bentley not just for the look, but also the quality of manufacture.

I have problems with the big +50cc, not only are they noisy, in general, they need a lot more responsible usage, than the average model. They will make a bigger hole, whenever they arrive, a simple error in handling will more often than not have a probable high potential for life changing consequences, and so on. Although who could say they are anything but impressive, particularly to an appreciative audience. I suspect they will always be a niche, that has grown in recent years. Particularly as my life savings would be absorbed by acquiring just one.

In the case of electric, they have essentially come from nowhere and seem to be destined to inherit all sections of aeromodelling and full size, so it appears.

[Don Fry]

Posted by spudsy on 03/02/2018 16:53:07:
Sorry chaps, but they do have decent engines,saito,os laser ect.it's almost that running the things and adjusting is what they enjoy.curing misfires that no one else hears, leaning out, richening up, trying new plugs.checking with tachos, changing fuel mixes, the list seems endless.

But they don't know how to run them. My mate, and I, this week, designed an electric setup. Who knows if it will work. But we can get a moor to run if it burns something. I suspect the electrical equivalent is the magic smoke escaping.

[John Stainforth]

>It isn't really up for debate

What are you referring to: the content of the debate or the the debate itself?

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Erfolg on 03/02/2018 17:52:13:

A lot depends on what is meant by death.

I would consider Diesels as dead, at best Zombies. Hardly ever seen, they are about, certainly not in healthy numbers. They are now a niche, where a few companies make a few, a few fly with them.

I believe diesels are still popular in control line circles (geddit?) but they were virtually unseen in RC flying in the mid 70s when I started, so perhaps their demise isn't quite as rapid as you suggest. Four strokes were unknown then so their use has grown infinitely!

At this time, I'd say that the main losers to electric flight have been two stroke glow engines. Although I still use some of mine regularly, I don't think it likely that I'll be buying any more. The manufacturer of hand built four strokes who must not be named is likely to get my business from now on.

Edited By Martin Harris on 03/02/2018 19:57:03

[Don Fry]

No the debate.

[Dave Hopkin]

With the assumption that batteries will continue to improve in energy/weight ratios I think that the 40 to 60 size will become increasingly rarer to see - they wont die as such as there are so many in regular use but I would expect to see sales of the lower end of IC to dwindle considerably, but I cant see electric making much ingress into the larger end of the IC Market place in the short or medium term unless there is some dramatic change in the available technology, but that technology change will arrive at some stage and allow some ingress of electric into the larger end of the market

[John Stainforth]

>No the debate

Don are you addressing this reply to me or someone else? Are you also BEB?

[Scott Notman]

Hi All,

I think this ones still alive!

And the coasters are pretty good too!

Scott

[Don Fry]

Posted by John Stainforth on 03/02/2018 20:08:19:

>No the debate

Don are you addressing this reply to me or someone else? Are you also BEB?

No, I am not BEB. I would not so presume. I was addressing a symmetry of language.