Don Fry Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Going back to merchant shipping case law. An owner hires an engineer. He is a drunk, incompetent, lacks paperwork, but is on board. They are insured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GONZO Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 My word, I've got to put my stick in the hornets nest and give it a good poke. Give people an opportunity to don their 'jobsworth' hats and become little official inspectors and their off. The BMFA made it perfectly clear in one of their news letters: (I'll para phrase slightly) NO POLICING BY THE BMFA, NO POLICING BY THE CLUBS, ITS PERSONAL RESPOSABILITY. Why make more work/potential trouble for ourselves? Bee hornet keepers outfit on, it's made from titanium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Posted by GONZO on 02/12/2019 20:18:41: My word, I've got to put my stick in the hornets nest and give it a good poke. Give people an opportunity to don their 'jobsworth' hats and become little official inspectors and their off. The BMFA made it perfectly clear in one of their news letters: (I'll para phrase slightly) NO POLICING BY THE BMFA, NO POLICING BY THE CLUBS, ITS PERSONAL RESPOSABILITY. Why make more work/potential trouble for ourselves? Bee hornet keepers outfit on, it's made from titanium. You ain't got a stick. Yep Martin the BMFA tells me, the wrongdoer may get chased for the money, I'm safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Gonzo is about right. Someone says, " got no number, no certificate, and that full size overflying is going to get a right scare". You have a problem with a comment, "go on, how close can you get". But silence is not a crime. Gonzo is histrionic however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 To ensure that my Club and its officers have no legal involvement with these Government regulations I will be insisting that all members will sign a copy of the following affidavit which will be retained in club files :- I, the undersigned, being a member of the xxxxxxxxxx model flying club, confirm that I carry appropriate model flying insurance and comply with all current CAA regulations in regard to model aeroplane and drone flying. I further agree to absolve the xxxxxxxxxx model flying club from the consequences of any noncompliance with the above conditions. Signed ………………………… Date……………………… Print Name…………………………………………………….. There will be no policing by the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Ours is simpler. The responsibility is yours, failure to fly legally, may lead the insurers to seek back the monies should you make a claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Posted by john stones 1 on 02/12/2019 20:42:54: Ours is simpler. The responsibility is yours, failure to fly legally, may lead the insurers to seek back the monies should you make a claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Posted by Don Fry on 02/12/2019 21:03:57: Posted by john stones 1 on 02/12/2019 20:42:54: Ours is simpler. The responsibility is yours, failure to fly legally, may lead the insurers to seek back the monies should you make a claim. Yep, poke that with a stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Lewis 3 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Quite dangerous ground legally for a club to be checking anything, get it wrong and they have accepted some responsibility, they thereby take on a responsibility that they probably don't want. That comes from a legal case in sailboat racing where the entrance committee's used to check that the competitor had valid insurance, it was subsequently held that by accepting it was sufficient to race they had endorsed that the cover provided was adequate (which in this case it wasn't). Entrance committee's stopped checking insurance and even refusing to look at it and simply accepted a competitors declaration that they had it. For an insurer to turn down a claim, especially a third party claim then as far as I can see it the insurer would have to prove that the reason for turning down the claim would have to be seen as a contributing factor. So, for example if you had an accident and were flying where you shouldn't AND hadn't taken the online pilots test the insurer could in the right circumstances probably have a reasonably valid reason to turn down the claim. However in the polar opposite, if you had an exemption or had taken the pilot test and were flying within the rules but had simply not registered as an operator it is difficult to see where simply not paying your nine pounds could ever be a contributing factor in any accident case (as far as I can see). This is just opinion "pro bono", and an opinion not to be relied on. Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 02/12/2019 21:19:41 Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 02/12/2019 21:20:34 Edited By Philip Lewis 3 on 02/12/2019 21:21:17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 No, "So, for example if you had an accident and were flying where you shouldn't AND hadn't taken the online pilots test the insurer could in the right circumstances probably have a reasonably valid reason to turn down the claim." They pay out to the injured party. They might then come after you for every penny you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Lewis 3 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Technically correct but they are coming after you for reimbursement BECAUSE they are saying the claim isn't valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Posted by Don Fry on 02/12/2019 21:33:28: No, "So, for example if you had an accident and were flying where you shouldn't AND hadn't taken the online pilots test the insurer could in the right circumstances probably have a reasonably valid reason to turn down the claim." They pay out to the injured party. They might then come after you for every penny you have. Genuine question, under what legislation? I understand that under the Insurance Act they can refuse the claim. The only situation I'm aware of where they pay out after an illegal act is under Section 151 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Aren't we waiting for a definitive answer re insurance cover and non-compliance with the regs from the BMFA? I seem to recall that discussions were on-going. AGM last night...........no probs, no arguments, no panic, no resignations. Everyone paid up without batting an eye. Easy. Edited By Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 10:19:18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Fry Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 John, I have to say, I don't know. My understanding of the Insurance act 2015, is it makes it more difficult to wriggle out of contracts, for instance banning phrases such as " in the utmost good faith", a favourite phrase in boat insurance documents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Posted by Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 10:14:55: Aren't we waiting for a definitive answer re insurance cover and non-compliance with the regs from the BMFA? I seem to recall that discussions were on-going. The only time you will get a definitive answer is if & when any particular case goes to court. My Club has taken the attitude that we are not prepared to take the risk of being hit by a potentially uninsured fellow flyer, so are monitoring. I think Committees should carefully ask themselves how they are going to respond to the injured party/press/court should there be an incident where a claim is refused & they are asked 'Why did you let this happen?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Adams 3 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 What a load of rubbish is being written, do what the BMFA & CAA tell us to do & what is the problem, I have my numbers, fixed to each plane, so away I go with no worries, Merry Xmas, and all that, and successful landings, no holes in the ground. Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban8 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 As far as my club and committee is concerned, to remain a member of the club one has to have BMFA and be CAA registered - easily confirmed on the portal, no exceptions including guest flyers. No tickets - no fly. Why would anyone wish to complicate matters? 95% of our members pay BMFA and CAA through the club anyway so job done, The few who belong to other clubs and pay their dues through them will have their status confirmed via the portal. A minute or two's work. Edited By Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 11:43:47 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Posted by Michael Adams 3 on 03/12/2019 11:02:25: What a load of rubbish is being written, do what the BMFA & CAA tell us to do & what is the problem, I have my numbers, fixed to each plane, so away I go with no worries, Merry Xmas, and all that, and successful landings, no holes in the ground. Mike. Bit abrasive Michael, if you don't mind me saying.... and a bit rich. If you had done what the BMFA told you to do, you wouldn't have your numbers yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lee Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Posted by Cuban8 on 03/12/2019 11:35:18: As far as my club and committee is concerned, to remain a member of the club one has to have BMFA and be CAA registered - easily confirmed on the portal, no exceptions including guest flyers. No tickets - no fly. Why would anyone wish to complicate matters? 95% of our members pay BMFA and CAA through the club anyway so job done, The few who belong to other clubs and pay their dues through them will have their status confirmed via the portal. A minute or two's work. Exactly the same for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 We had a fella who'd not paid his club fees, but kept coming then flying, someone pulled him, no pay no fly, he paid. Another fella, not paid his BMFA, same story. Yet another fella, flying recklessly and in a dangerous manner, and endangering person and property, sumat in CAA bumf about that. Members wanted someone to have a word with him (they don't like policing stuff) so muggins got the job, no yellow vest or clipboard mind, he got told he could no longer fly large models that where not fit for purpose and beyond his abilities because he was endangering the clubs well being..policing ? Same fella drove his car over the field after heavy rain, got stuck RAC had to tow him off, members decided he should foot the bill for the repair (but they don't like policing) so muggins had to tell him. Same fella's no longer a member, one of the Wives gave him an earful and Policed him out the club, good riddance. Policing ? It's a word that people have come up with because they have the hump over this, 99.9% will just get on and fly legally, need No policing. Storm in a teacup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 John, I suspect that you keep referring to "policing", because I gave you a hard time about it prior to and at our AGM. I made it a condition of me remaining as a committee member, that I would not be involved in policing the registration regulations. You have stated recently that you are confused by the policing comments, so let me try to explain. The term "policing" in the context of registration as I see it hasn't started yet. It's the ongoing checking that every model carries a legitimate Operator ID and is only flown by a "competent Flier". You / the club have decided that all club members must fly legally (which I accept as your prerogative), despite the BMFA advice which makes it an individual choice rather than mandatory. The starting point to this is checking that everyone is competent and registered as an operator (which I accept). What I don't accept is the ongoing responsibility of checking that all models are labelled up correctly as this would in my opinion, cause ill-feeling / arguments and take the enjoyment out of visiting the field. The whole point of registration is to end up with an Operator ID label on every model. Without this, the registration exercise is pointless. Someone MUST take responsibility for this. In my opinion (and the BMFA's), it should be the individual flier and not the club. It certainly is not the responsibility of the committee members. The problem with the club getting involved in "policing" the registration process, is that the club could inadvertently be taking liability away from the individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Not the case at all Gary, the term policing came up long before you used it. I ain't arguing with one of our clubs best members over this rubbish. I decided nothing, the law dictates we must fly legally, nothing I can do about it. The club is already involved, you/we already enforce CAA laws and have done for donkeys years. So if there's Liability, it was already there. Edited By john stones 1 on 03/12/2019 13:46:09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Manuel Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 OK - just explaining what I meant by policing as you seemed unclear. Edited By Gary Manuel on 03/12/2019 14:08:52 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john stones 1 - Moderator Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Posted by Gary Manuel on 03/12/2019 14:08:39: OK - just explaining what I meant by policing as you seemed unclear. Edited By Gary Manuel on 03/12/2019 14:08:52 No the term is being used in lots of places, I'm clear on what it is, seen people grabbing TXs to prevent someone crashing, some might call that Policing, I see it as common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Heather Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Question You are at your club, pretty empty, just you and another guy. The other guy is flying a quad using FPV so he doesn’t have line of sight. Even if he had a spotter, the quad is often flying behind structures that would block line of sight. He is a very competent flyer and doesn’t appear to be putting anyone else at risk given the location that we fly from. Do you say anything? Cheers, Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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