Is the hobby dying/dead

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

11) Modern radio equipment, amazing value and reliability.

12) Free Flight, the satisfaction of making your model fly how you want it to just from trimming.

13) Gas Turbines, simply awesome!

14) Control Line Team racing, bonkers and brilliant in equal measure!

15) Drone Racing, simply brilliant and showing the way forward with technology and running events, get your club to invite the BDRA along to run a race, give it a go!

16) Building your own creation and flying it, soooo rewarding!

17) Shows, a chance to see great flying displays and meet up with friends

18) BMFA Buckminster, its brilliant!

19) That young kid who picks up a transmitter and shows us how its done in no time at all (Grrrr) lol

20) That old guy who comes along with his old tatty glow model and the smile on his face as he potters around the sky

21) Everyone in between!

22) RC Helicopters, drones, fixed wing RC, free flight, control line, indoor flying, all brilliant!!

I could go on, what we do is brilliant and a great sport for anyone to be involved in at whatever level you want. Time to remember that folks and be positive and promote what we do rather than knock it down!

 

Edited By Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 17:15:21

[Nigel R]

Lot's of the negativity I see on here largely seems to be "it ain't how it used to be" dressed up in different words.

for Andy's post above.

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by MattyB on 25/01/2021 15:57:49:

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 15:18:00:

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:30:54:
Fine. If you like taking a test every three years, paying an annual fee, and writing a number on all your planes it's ok by me.

But as you point out it's another "burden".

Paying an annual fee to the CAA is at worst a minor irritation, pointless apart from it ensures we are lawful, but only a minor irritation.

The test is now one every 5 years so an example where the regulatory burden is actually even lighter in 2021 from 2020, and as it is a very simple test that demonstrates we are up to speed on what we need to know to remain lawful is a burden so small that if its too much for anyone they really must have something major going on in their lives and I can only hope they get it sorted and they have my best wishes.

Putting a label on or in my aircraft couldn't be classed as any sort of burden either unless I was determined to make things seem more challenging than they actually are.

I agree that for the moment the regulatory burden is relatively light, and that the current Article 16 Authorisation is an excellent result for us. My concern is our ability to maintain that over time and overall trajectory of regulation globally, especailly when you see what is happening in Europe and the US.

The Article 16 authorisation is great for now, but it has to be renewed every year, at least initially. I worry that many members will not comply with aspects of it that could come back to bite us collectively, most obviously pieces like the need to conduct RAs for "built up" flying sites and report flyaways etc. Any transgressions by association members are likely to result in an erosion of our new found privileges.

If remote ID becomes mandatory in the future (remember the Sec of State has already said he wants to move forward with it asap) it will definitely push a percentage people out of the hobby (many people I fly with have told me it would be "final straw" moment for them). It may not discourage newcomers buying RTF machines already equipped to comply, but will certainly discourage them from the the more traditional forms of aeromodelling which will become more complex and expensive.

Ultimately we have to remember we are in competition with many more activities than in aeromodeliings heyday, and any barrier (perceived or actual) will have an effect on participation. Whilst I am thankful for the work of the BMFA and the other national associations (who have been dramatically more effective than the AMA in the US) I'm not confident they will be able to effectively fight the rising tide of regulation backed by big business interests. I hope I'm wrong, but only time will tell.

Excellent post.

But I don't think remote ID will happen. It is not required on real planes, not even in controlled airspace. though almost all airliners have it.

The drone transmission power will have to be low, also at our altitudes range will be very short, and there aren't anywhere near enough ATC resources to pick it up. At present it just appears as an entirely optional 'auto ID' (Squawk) which shows up on ATC radar screens  and used to avoid them having to ask you to do a quick right and left or whatever so they can connect your radar blip on their screens with your voice.

Without a radar reflection to show where you are it is pointless.

Also ATC will never be able to cope with a million 'drones' (the number already sold) and there is no other existing 'body' other than the RAF that does it, and theirs is usually shut down at weekends.

I don't think the Sec of State has the slightest idea what he is asking for.

Edited By Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 17:25:11

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 14:13:01:

I'm being positive because there is no reason to be negative. Its never been easier to get involved, the regulatory burden is simple to comply with and still very light and equipment is remarkably cheap.

Spot on Andy.

Thanks for all of your efforts on our behalf.

[kevin b]

[Tim Kearsley]

Posted by Roger Jones 3 on 25/01/2021 14:30:54:

Excellent post.

But I don't think remote ID will happen. It is not required on real planes, not even in controlled airspace. though almost all airliners have it.

The drone transmission power will have to be low, also at our altitudes range will be very short, and there aren't anywhere near enough ATC resources to pick it up. At present it just appears as an entirely optional 'auto ID' (Squawk) which shows up on ATC radar screens and used to avoid them having to ask you to do a quick right and left or whatever so they can connect your radar blip on their screens with your voice.

Without a radar reflection to show where you are it is pointless.

Also ATC will never be able to cope with a million 'drones' (the number already sold) and there is no other existing 'body' other than the RAF that does it, and theirs is usually shut down at weekends.

I don't think the Sec of State has the slightest idea what he is asking for.

I don't understand why radar is needed to show the location of the UAV. Surely, the format of the transmission from the UAV would include location? For example, GPS coordinates?

I haven't read up on the technical specs, so could be entirely wrong. ADSB doesn't require radar does it?

[Erfolg]

My earliest memories include adults leaning out of window of their flats in what was then the British zone of Germany. My thoughts were why, my mother explained that not everyone had a radio. Many people had allotments, to avoid hunger.

Now compare that era with now'

I do not recognise the figure of 36,000 BMFA members. I thought that at  the figure was nearer 30,000 at present. I anticipated that the CAA regs would increase membership. The number of aero modelers I thought would remain much the same. In the longer term, my own thoughts were and are that there would be a reduction in our sector of modeling, dur to the extra hurdles imposed, however trivial some see them. With respect to new entrants, some will and some will not see the regs as an issue. However hurdles will have an effect.

Then there is the issue I am part of the generation, that are now declining in number, I think some say we are dying out.

The Covid effect has increased sales, particularly on-line. The media is telling us all the time, Boohoo and others have never had it so good. Even Hornby is recording a 20% increase in sales, returning apparently to a profit after years of losses. Trouble is that high street retailing appears to have suffered, to the extent that many house hold names have gone into liquidations.

IMO the hobby is in decline in the UK, no idea about the rest of the world, although I suspect it is a similar story.

As sp many have written, it is not the clubs fault, nor the BMFA, it is the Zeist Geist.

If it were not for the efforts of a small number of activists, the situation would be less good. Again in my opinion, there efforts are better than what King Canute managed, although in the end changed little.

I also have fears about the viability of the industry in the longer term, as to be viable profits have to be made. Yet when many fail, some businesses will (thankfully) buck the trend.

I managed to read the first 4-5 pages, and can only applaud the positive views and efforts of so many. In the mean time I continue to enjoy the hobby.

Edited By Erfolg on 25/01/2021 21:13:33

[Roger Jones 3]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 17:13:39:

11) Modern radio equipment, amazing value and reliability.

12) Free Flight, the satisfaction of making your model fly how you want it to just from trimming.

13) Gas Turbines, simply awesome!

14) Control Line Team racing, bonkers and brilliant in equal measure!

15) Drone Racing, simply brilliant and showing the way forward with technology and running events, get your club to invite the BDRA along to run a race, give it a go!

16) Building your own creation and flying it, soooo rewarding!

17) Shows, a chance to see great flying displays and meet up with friends

18) BMFA Buckminster, its brilliant!

19) That young kid who picks up a transmitter and shows us how its done in no time at all (Grrrr) lol

20) That old guy who comes along with his old tatty glow model and the smile on his face as he potters around the sky

21) Everyone in between!

22) RC Helicopters, drones, fixed wing RC, free flight, control line, indoor flying, all brilliant!!

I could go on, what we do is brilliant and a great sport for anyone to be involved in at whatever level you want. Time to remember that folks and be positive and promote what we do rather than knock it down!

Edited By Andy Symons - BMFA on 25/01/2021 17:15:21

Good post. I'm close to the 'old guy' in no 20. Though I do a bit more than 'potter around' as I do high power EDF's, medium and big glow helis too. Though I do have a glow Junior 60 that I fly a lot.

But being realistic about a possible future has NOTHING to do with being negative.

And it's SUPPOSED to be a discussion. That should be born in mind.

Most of the approx 300 flyers that use our site are at least in their forties.

[Matt Carlton]

One thing to bear in mind perhaps when considering the demographic of our hobby is that the issue isn't necessarily a lack of interest in a younger age bracket, rather it is a lack of time and resources.

I was very active in free flight etc when I was 9-16 I guess. Then I discovered the pub, hanging out with mates, trying (vainly) to chat up girls, watching TV and various other teenage activities.

From 18-24 I was in full time education at college, university etc and still seemingly entranced by getting into various states of mind, girlfriends, hooning around in my modified car etc.

25+ saw me move in with my gf, get engaged, married, children, working 6 days a week etc etc

Only now at 45, do I have the time and resources to return to the hobby .

I think that's a fairly common story and perhaps just as indicative of the reason why we're generally an 'older crowd' as anything else.

[SIMON CRAGG]

I would like to echo the sentiments of others by saying a massive thank you to Andy and the team, for steering us through the recent difficult times. How they have managed to fight their way through the various rule changes, Covid, and keep their "cool" when criticised never ceases to amaze me. WELL DONE THE BMFA.

Moving swiftly on......

I was hoping my Grandson would take up model flying, having picked it up easily on the old Phoenix Sim.

Although I tried to get him involved in putting together a trainer package, I was hoping he would show a bit more enthusiasm "up the field".

At ten years old, he enjoyed attempting to drive my car up the bumpy track to the site.

He had one session on the buddy lead, and although he controlled the model ok, said it made him feel dizzy and he didn't like it!

Great.

He enjoyed eating his lunch in the club hut and driving my car back down the track.

Very shortly after that, he discovered computers. Say no more. They virtually took over his life, and at one stage it became hard to motivate him to get out of the house.

I am sure we are not alone. In general the younger generation would much prefer being in the warm, in their PJ's flying a very realistic F18, than standing about on a windswept flying site with a load of old blokes, drinking luke warm tea sat on somebody's tailgate!.

We have an excellent club, but when was the last time we had a youngster join..............cannot remember!

[Cuban8]

I agree with Andy's post and all the positives - certainly there are negatives that we could discuss, but those negatives have been with us for ages, all through the years of expanding participation and a once thriving industry serving those modellers, so I don't see much of a connection to how we find ourselves today.

I think that perhaps we should be coming at this from a different angle and asking ourselves whether the 'change' or 'development' of our hobby that so many are relying on to prevent its decline will be sufficient to maintain a critical mass of participants over say the coming decade. We can all still merrily go about our business exuding positivity but on the back of a hobby that may well continue to contract around our ears and despite the very best efforts be unable to replace those who leave because of natural wastage. Think about your own club in 2031 - will it have been able to maintain itself or are there signs now that viability with a smaller membership will be an issue?

If publicity and promotion of the hobby (particularly to younger types) is not found to be as successful as might be hoped, what then? Some clubs will ride it out and will almost certainly buck the trend, but what of those that don't? Think of the warning that you get when you invest money......" past performance is no guarantee of future returns" or something similar. All your eggs in one basket is never a good idea.

If the BMFA as we recognise it now, finds itself a much diminished force, unable to operate as it does now because of falling membership - what then? Is this being considered as a real scenario and a possible plan in place or any consideration given, with the focus on regulation that has taken up so much time recently?

Best to be prepared rather than be caught flat footed and overtaken by events, as so many of our once prosperous industries found to their costs.

 

 

 

 

Edited By Cuban8 on 26/01/2021 11:38:53

[Geoff S]

Everything changes. It always has.

I'm a serial hobbyist.

I started with motorcycles at 16 and they were my only means of transport for over 10 years and the major one for a further 10. I used to compete a lot in off road events and did a lot of off road exploring of green lanes. We used our normal touring bikes. Now there are special bikes sold widely for just that purpose and, with them and thus far more restrictions in their use than we had when we few were enjoying ourselves. Sound familiar?

I did a lot of sailing, too. Many built theiir own dinghies but sailing, too has changed a lot. You only have to look at the yachts sailing in the America's cup to see that.

We started cycling to get fit for sailing. I designed my own mountain bike in 1976 and Mercian's built me a frame. I still have it. At the time I struggled to find suitable components so I built my own wheels and adapted conventional parts, now gearing has changed beyond recognition and mountain bikes have suspension!. And there are restrictions where they may be ridden. Before I got my mountain bike we explored off road cycling using our normal dropbar touring bikes.

So perhaps that's why, in my early 80s, I accept the changes in aeromodelling which are really minor and hardly affect the way or where I fly - covid excepting!

Geoff

[Stuart Z]

Hi,

I see that the concern is getting the younger people into the hobby. Is there an issue with our general new members being north of 40? These people will still be a valuable contribution to the club and can afford the hobby. Yes, it would be nice to get the youth away from computers (if that is the issue) but they will probably grow out of that go through youth to middle age and then maybe when other commitments are no longer an issue, can become steady members of our club environment.

Just my view of things

S

[Phil McCavity]

Posted by Stuart Z on 26/01/2021 11:59:43:

Hi,

I see that the concern is getting the younger people into the hobby. Is there an issue with our general new members being north of 40? These people will still be a valuable contribution to the club and can afford the hobby. Yes, it would be nice to get the youth away from computers (if that is the issue) but they will probably grow out of that go through youth to middle age and then maybe when other commitments are no longer an issue, can become steady members of our club environment.

Just my view of things

S

Precisely.

I've always asked why new blood has to be young blood? As long as the new blood matches or exceeds the number that exit the hobby will survive. The younger demographic has always been a small proportion primarily because of the cost and transport barriers. Cost has fallen significantly so is less so now but transport is still a hurdle, unless you have access to at least a car you're pretty much out of it.

[Alan Gorham_]

I've said before on previous threads that it is almost pointless trying to attract younger people as the main sources of new entrants into the hobby.

Look at what you need to start flying the typical core interest type of R/C model covered by this forum.

Once you have considered all the kit, radio equipment, chargers, tools, field support equipment etc, then take a look at practically getting to fly your model. How close is your local club? Oh you have to drive - but you are a kid, so you need a parent to take you (and I would suggest in 99.99% of clubs in the UK you will also need your parent to stay with you as the responsible adult, due to the child protection policy adopted for obvious reasons). Then look at what facilities may be on hand at your club. You may be lucky and have a cabin where you can get a warm or cold drink, or you may have an empty field with a bush for your comfort breaks.

I would suggest that is not so very attractive prospect when compared to other attractions/interests.

It's not a kids hobby - if multi-channel R/C ever was. Far better to attract 40ish year old parents as new entrants who have the cash, a bit of time, the means of getting to the field etc and if their kids get exposed to it and consider taking the hobby up when THEY are 40 then good.

[Cuban8]

I agree that more often than not, new 'young' members are in their late 30s or early 40s, but they would have been kids just at the time that our hobby was at its peak and just as the computer revolution was gathering steam but nothing like today. Maybe seeds were sown during the 80s & 90s, but I think you'll find that many born after the millenium will have a different mindset and shouldn't be relied upon to 'evolve' to more practical pastimes in sufficient numbers away from or as well as gaming.

Depending on your age, look at your own children or grandchildren and see how powerful an attraction Playstations and Xboxes are to them and importantly, to their friends. With more and more stuff of amazing complexity being played together in real time on-line. The social aspect has changed as well, with Facebook and the like. A muddy field with little or no facilities on a cold day with old blokes (over 40!) nattering on might not seem too attractive

[Peter Jones 21]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 12:34:54:

I've said before on previous threads that it is almost pointless trying to attract younger people as the main sources of new entrants into the hobby.

Look at what you need to start flying the typical core interest type of R/C model covered by this forum.

Once you have considered all the kit, radio equipment, chargers, tools, field support equipment etc, then take a look at practically getting to fly your model. How close is your local club? Oh you have to drive - but you are a kid, so you need a parent to take you (and I would suggest in 99.99% of clubs in the UK you will also need your parent to stay with you as the responsible adult, due to the child protection policy adopted for obvious reasons). Then look at what facilities may be on hand at your club. You may be lucky and have a cabin where you can get a warm or cold drink, or you may have an empty field with a bush for your comfort breaks.

I would suggest that is not so very attractive prospect when compared to other attractions/interests.

It's not a kids hobby - if multi-channel R/C ever was. Far better to attract 40ish year old parents as new entrants who have the cash, a bit of time, the means of getting to the field etc and if their kids get exposed to it and consider taking the hobby up when THEY are 40 then good.

I would entirely disagree with this post, aeromodelling needs to attract all ages to continue, I place no emphasis on one group over another.

Multi channel RC flight has been accessible to teenagers since the mid 1970's, yes you had to beg steal and borrow but we got there and what a ride it was.

Regarding facilities modelling is no worse or better than any other hobby/event, my son and I competed for while in motorcycle trials, facilities there I can promise you.

Bringing youngsters in to the hobby has challenges and rewards, the balance is in favour of the rewards if you have an open mind and do it right.

[Alan Gorham_]

You seem to do a lot of disagreeing Roger.

It's pointless comparing this hobby to motorbike trials or anything else. This hobby is it's own entity and by my own evidence of being in it since I was a child I can see how I started. My Dad used to take me flying as soon as I could walk to the flying field with him. While he flew his R/C models I was happy with a chuck glider or rubber powered model.

That then established a pattern of play for me to fly my model when my Dad was at work. Simple, safe no cost fun that instilled a love for the hobby that has lasted a lifetime for me.

You seem to think I'm discouraging youngsters. I'm not at all and any exposure they can have to our hobby that fires their interest is good.

I do a lot of flying now with the PSSA on the Great Orme in Llandudno. A place which is very popular with families who walk by our activities and sometimes stop to watch. Sometimes they even ask us about our models but you can see from the youngsters reactions that it has not totally captivated them. Answer me how to get them interested...If the sight of something shiny/fast/big/modern that people can make themselves and then go and fly reliably by remote control in a fabulous outdoors location isn't enough of a hook then what is the secret?

That is why I think it is more realistic to capture people in the 30s to 40s bracket as the next generation.

[Peter Jones 21]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 13:42:08:

You seem to do a lot of disagreeing Roger.

Not Roger, rather Peter.

Agree to disagree.

[Alan Gorham_]

Apologies Peter! I am confusing you with Roger Jones who likes a good argument on any given subject.

We can of course agree to disagree but I would genuinely be interested as to how you would propose to attract young entrants to our hobby.

I feel the BMFA have come to a similar conclusion to me as to their target demographic for new entrants - target those able to participate now without excluding those who may show interest in the future.

[Erfolg]

The business I worked in, no longer exists in its original form. It is possible that the business would exist in something like its original form, if both the threats had been recognised and managed, rather than pretending that some issues were being swept under the carpet, heads stuck in sand, with some that it was inconceivable that anything would materially change.

So how does this observation fit with how our hobby is changing?

The most obvious is the skewed distribution curve towards the aged. I would expect this to a small degree, in that not many 1-5 year olds build models etc. However the bar chart in the latest BMFA news (from "What do you think of the BMFA" provides a clue of the most probable future number of UK modelers. In that returning and perhaps new modelers represent circa 20% of current membership (assuming all age groups responded uniformly). It can be argued that in the next 40 years or so the membership will decline, as they will become the 55-+75 year interval.

I understand that the BMFA budgeting over the immediate membership years, assumes a modest loss of membership.

In life nothing in the future is set in stone. On that basis not all is lost.

However from a business perspective, business plans for the next 5 years (or what ever is chosen) needs to recognise the trends, whatever they are.

IMO it is noticeable that for a percentage of the club membership, the models are much bigger, as an almost certainty consequence more expensive, particularly jets and the power box type systems that are increasingly seen. This at least provides spend to the retail and manufacturing sectors.

A down side is the lack of Toy Shops of old. In my youth cheap kits were purchased in the local toy shops, I remember three, or the bicycle/model shop, fishing tackle, with a stock of some models , or even LMS, I knew of four. That was then, now, many of the cheap imagination inspiring play things have more recently been purchased in department stores. Most of these have now gone or no longer sell that cheap Infra red foam model.

It already has been mentioned, that many of the places that the then youngsters flew models are no longer available. Some down to noise or accidents or perceived risk. The undeveloped, abandon sites, rough fields have apparently disappeared in England at least.

I personally do not know any of the answers. There will be some who do, when they recognise the threats and where the opportunities lie. The hobby has changed, it continues to change.

Edited By Erfolg on 26/01/2021 15:01:34

[EvilC57]

Posted by Matt Carlton on 26/01/2021 07:35:51:

One thing to bear in mind perhaps when considering the demographic of our hobby is that the issue isn't necessarily a lack of interest in a younger age bracket, rather it is a lack of time and resources.

I was very active in free flight etc when I was 9-16 I guess. Then I discovered the pub, hanging out with mates, trying (vainly) to chat up girls, watching TV and various other teenage activities.

From 18-24 I was in full time education at college, university etc and still seemingly entranced by getting into various states of mind, girlfriends, hooning around in my modified car etc.

25+ saw me move in with my gf, get engaged, married, children, working 6 days a week etc etc

Only now at 45, do I have the time and resources to return to the hobby .

I think that's a fairly common story and perhaps just as indicative of the reason why we're generally an 'older crowd' as anything else.

I’ve lost count of the number of teenagers we’ve had come along to our club for a season or two, and then they reach exam time and we never see them again. I guess then they go off to college or uni, discover beer, girls, careers and mortgages; and they come back about 30 years later (like I did) when they’re in their 40s.

[Peter Jones 21]

Posted by Alan Gorham_ on 26/01/2021 14:21:02:

Apologies Peter! I am confusing you with Roger Jones who likes a good argument on any given subject.

We can of course agree to disagree but I would genuinely be interested as to how you would propose to attract young entrants to our hobby.

I feel the BMFA have come to a similar conclusion to me as to their target demographic for new entrants - target those able to participate now without excluding those who may show interest in the future.

I am definitely not seeking an argument. I know Roger likes a good bun fight, I have read a lot of posts that he is involved with.

In my club we did not do anything in particular to get youngsters to show up, but once they did start to show up we gave a lot of help and encouragement, so they told their friends that they had a good time RC model flying and the word spread. They learn to fly super quick, really we just need to make them aware of flight rules and safety.

We have a great indoor venue and it was quite a handful when 25% of the fliers were under 16 years old and discipline has to be handled very carefully as some parents don't like someone else even coming close to telling their kids what to do.

Prior to Covid we were building up to holding some junior only competitions, that momentum will have to be built back up again.

[Alan Gorham_]

Well one of my points was about facilities at a "typical" R/C flying club field. I totally agree with you that indoor flying might be a way of making a safer, more youngster friendly environment. Perhaps the fact that indoor models need less support equipment also makes it more acceptable as a staring point for youngsters.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

This forum is all about lively debate - it would soon get boring if everyone agreed!

All we ask is that it doesn't become personal, political or offensive, so as long as they're soft buns and not rock cakes, feel free to chuck the food around!