New limit on groups in England from Monday?

[Zflyer]

Should you to choose to go to your club field to fly you normally go alone. If others are there observe social distancing and if closer than 2metres wear a mask. You may also wish to sign in as this would help track and trace in the event someone had it. Dont share anything unless you sanitise first.

Even if more than six provided you are 2 metres away no infringement.

Seems to me they are sensible and do no break any rules.

[Brian Dorricott 1]

I have read the above and can only think that last year we were arguing the toss about the CAA registration and it got heated , wonder in a year's time what the topic will be ? Just remember in some countries free speech isn't allowed and seen as dissent . Do you ever wonder if the people drafting the law have a clear idea what they mean ? We can't work it out easily bet they couldn't either .

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Ron Gray on 19/09/2020 09:36:31:

With respect Keith, absolute clarity is required when we are talking about a law and if we will be breaking it or not! Your post is a classic example of your interpretation being at odds with others and interpretation is where things go wrong; quite simply it shouldn't be open to interpretation. It would be nice if common sense prevailed but.........................

Law is not absolute.

Much of it is constantly reinterpreted and based on precedent. Ask any lawyer!

This particular issue is essentially, about limiting the numbers of individuals in close proximity especially for extended periods of time, in order to reduce transmission.

In my view, if we are all socially distancing at the flying field and following the hygiene advice then we are acting within the spirit and intention of the law.

If I have a fear at all, in terms of ad-hoc model flying, it is that demanding too much “clarity” might produce a result that nobody wants!

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Ron Gray on 15/09/2020 08:08:05:

@Denis - groups of 6, keeping distance, is not an organised sports group is it, it is an informal group / session? Therefore, as per my post above, there is no 'official' need to record.

If the club wants to run an event, fly-in, etc then that is an organised event and they must follow the Gov rules and do risk assessment etc etc as per Andy's link above and that would include records.

As far as I can see there are only a couple of noted gatherings (funerals etc) where the magic number of 30 appears.

Unless, of course, clubs fall under the category of 'providers of outdoor facilities' or we are considered to be a team sport (by definition I think the latter can be ruled out unless competitions are involved).

Maybe @Andy Symons could give a little bit more clarity?

Club fields are not just fields, they are outdoor sports facilities and you aren't just turning up to fly, you are taking part in organised sporting activity, it doesn't have to be an event.

Sports facilities are exempt from the rule of 6 as long as guidance has been issued by the National governing body and the venue is operating to COVID secure guidance.

Personally my opinion is no matter whether you only have a max of 6 on site just put the COVID secure measures in place and follow the guidance we have issued on the website, there is nothing difficult about any of it. It is the responsible thing to do, and when it comes right down to it, it may just prevent someone from dying.

[Ron Gray]

Thanks for replying Andy, so is the BMFA’s guidance based upon 3.16, specifically ‘Other sports or licensed outdoor physical activities may also be permitted if this is formally organised by a sports club or similar organisation and following sports-governing body guidance‘ ?

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Ron Gray on 19/09/2020 11:19:10:

Thanks for replying Andy, so is the BMFA’s guidance based upon 3.16, specifically ‘Other sports or licensed outdoor physical activities may also be permitted if this is formally organised by a sports club or similar organisation and following sports-governing body guidance‘ ?

Yes. It is based entirely on Government guidelines.

[Ron Gray]

Great now it becomes a bit clearer - thanks. So, taking 3.16 as our guideline there is no limit of 6:

'You can continue to take part in organised sporting or licensed physical activity in groups of more than 6. This can be in any public place – indoors or outdoors – or a private outdoor space like a garden; but not inside a private home.

These activities either need to be organised by a national governing body, club, registered instructor/coach, business or charity; and/or involve someone who has received an official license to use equipment relevant to the activity. In all cases, the organiser must conduct a risk assessment and ensure compliance with COVID-19 Secure guidance'

And that ties up with 2.10.

Obviously having groups of 6 gives an extra layer of protection but they are not necessary.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

To put it simply.

Clubs do this **LINK**

Individuals do this **LINK**

[leccyflyer]

Irrespective of numbers, Covid-unfriendly preventative measures, the agreed exceptions for organised sports against those numerical limits. How does all of this sit with the Gov advice to avoid non-essential travel?

[Ron Gray]

Posted by Andy Symons - BMFA on 19/09/2020 12:03:57:

Individuals do this **LINK**

Does this not contradict 3.16, which is what the BMFA guidelines are based on, in that the BMFA are referring to groups of 6 which is not necessary if 3.16 is in place?

[Ron Gray]

@Leccyflyer - it’s probably all academic as in a couple of weeks time we’ll probably be back to where we were in March ☹️

[leccyflyer]

@Ron - as I said in my first post this morning, I think that is essentially the situation here in Scotland now -it's largely academic in terms of following the spirit of the law. This weekend has been flagged as a test. If the beaches, bars and cafes are crowded out in the lovely weather that will provide the impetus to put the brakes on even harder and we'll be back to square one.

[Ron Gray]

Yep, doesn't look good.

[Keith Miles 2]

My final comments on the issue are, firstly, that we should all feel much safer flying models in accordance with the guidelines than taking part in, for example, a game of Rugby, the latter of which would also appear to be legal!

Secondly, the only people likely to complain about the likes of us will be those whose social activities, or intended social activities, are not covered by an exemption and who would therefore, presumably, prefer a free-for-all with maximum health risk or a total lockdown with minimal health risk. Nobody, of course, would ever complain out of pure spite, would they?

As for non-essential travel, whilst I believe that this is also covered by the exemption, if anyone feels uncomfortable about this or any other perceived anomalies or contradictions, the simple solution is to not go flying.

Oh, and a group of six flyers at a field, hugging and kissing each other is probably not within the sprit and intention of the legislation!

[cymaz]

Our Club has used 6 max on the field since lockdown ended. All the members are used to the club system and now it is routine. Members make more of an effort to book and come now that places are reduced at the field.

[leccyflyer]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 19/09/2020 22:15:47:

My final comments on the issue are, firstly, that we should all feel much safer flying models in accordance with the guidelines than taking part in, for example, a game of Rugby, the latter of which would also appear to be legal!

Secondly, the only people likely to complain about the likes of us will be those whose social activities, or intended social activities, are not covered by an exemption and who would therefore, presumably, prefer a free-for-all with maximum health risk or a total lockdown with minimal health risk. Nobody, of course, would ever complain out of pure spite, would they?

As for non-essential travel, whilst I believe that this is also covered by the exemption, if anyone feels uncomfortable about this or any other perceived anomalies or contradictions, the simple solution is to not go flying.

Oh, and a group of six flyers at a field, hugging and kissing each other is probably not within the sprit and intention of the legislation!

I'm not seeing how the dispensations granted to organised sports circumvents the non-essential travel advice, or how getting to the flying field could be deemed to be essential travel, but yes, that's exactly what I did yesterday and missed what sounds like a fantastic day's flying. It's a choice that really is left up to the individual, as it is advice, not mandatory.

[John Lee]

Leccyflyer please stop publishing false information about non essential travel. That restriction was lifted at the beginning of July in England. Present Government advice is available on the official Government website Link

[leccyflyer]

Posted by John Lee on 20/09/2020 07:18:43:

Leccyflyer please stop publishing false information about non essential travel. That restriction was lifted at the beginning of July in England. Present Government advice is available on the official Government website Link

I'm not publishing false information. I'm not in England.

Here is the information I am referring to.

Updated Covid Guidelines- Scotland 18th September

"So right now, and I mean right now, today, over the weekend and into next week, that means following all of the rules and the advice currently in place.

Work from home if you can, that remains our advice. As I said a moment ago, avoid if you can non-essential travel. Don’t meet up with any more than six people from a maximum of two households, indoors and outdoors."

[John Lee]

Fair enough in your case but the title of this thread is: New limit on groups in England from Monday?

[leccyflyer]

Posted by John Lee on 20/09/2020 07:52:28:

Fair enough in your case but the title of this thread is: New limit on groups in England from Monday?

The post that I replied to was Andy Symonds post containing the links to the British Model Flying Associations advice for England and Scotland.

So, like I said, I did not publish any false information.

[Frank Skilbeck]

Leccy the BMFA had already included this in their advice for modellers "

5. Only travel based on what is permitted by current government guidelines."

So this would apply to any areas that have more local lockdowns, for instance a couple of slopes near me in Wales are now off limits as they are in a local lockdown area.

[leccyflyer]

Franks - that's my point, the local Government guidelines here in Scotland include the local lockdowns - in Glasgow and parts of Lanarkshire, just like the local lockdowns in parts of Lancashire, Merseyside etc - but they also include the more general advice that i quoted from the First Minister, which is to avoid non-essential travel.

That's advice, rather than a mandatory prohibition on non-essential travel, so it's a grey area where each of us must make our own decisions.