New limit on groups in England from Monday?

[Peter Miller]

From what the BMFA statement says it seems that more than 6 people can go to the flying field but must remain apart in groups of 6 or less.

Please correct me if I wrong Andy.

We have two tables on wheels so they can be moved well apart...up to 100 metres. We only have eleven members

In fact if we get more than 7 it is amazing. We did have 8 on the perfect Sunday last week. 6 is the usual number so no problems there.

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Posted by Peter Miller on 12/09/2020 13:43:04:

From what the BMFA statement says it seems that more than 6 people can go to the flying field but must remain apart in groups of 6 or less.

Please correct me if I wrong Andy.

We have two tables on wheels so they can be moved well apart...up to 100 metres. We only have eleven members

In fact if we get more than 7 it is amazing. We did have 8 on the perfect Sunday last week. 6 is the usual number so no problems there.

More than 6 can be at a club site as long as the club is COVID secure. See **LINK**

[Peter Miller]

THanks Andy

Basically what I thought.

With our very small numbers track and trace is NO problem

[Keith Miles 2]

Having read the latest BMFA guidance, no confusion my end. My club, for one, ticks all of the boxes, and then some, and has done since March. Others it seems have even tougher restrictions. Each to their own.

If everybody just concentrated on the basics (hands, face, space in the current parlance) rather than debating numbers restrictions, making comparisons with other activities, criticising qualified scientists and complaining about unavoidable anomalies arising from government measures we might be in a much better position of reducing the cross-infection risk to the lowest practical level.

It’s not just about THEM, it’s equally about US and “cop-outs” (pardon the pun!) are not an option and, arguably, irresponsible and part of the problem.

End of rant.

[Gary Manuel]

Spot on Keith.

Common sense is all that's needed. Learning how to identify the irresponsible ones and giving them an extra wide berth will make all the difference.

[PeterF]

I have to thank Andy for the information. I completed the risk assessment, the club had done this informally when we put our rules together for COVID but had not recorded it. This resulted in no change to how we operate apart from people will now send me a text when they go flying (Club Sec so I am the tracking coordinator). I am happier to have a track and trace system like this rather than limit the number at the field to 6. We had 14 people at the field throughout the day on Thursday, about 11 max at any one time, 6 would not go down well.

[Keith Miles 2]

Depending on the nature and size of the club, and aside from the “track and trace” element, an online spreadsheet makes a useful and convenient “Covid Safe” substitute for the signing in/out book e.g. Google “Sheets”.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Any comments on how GDPR might (or might not) affect any logging of club visits?

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Martin Harris on 13/09/2020 01:41:30:

Any comments on how GDPR might (or might not) affect any logging of club visits?

I think that signing in procedures, in many areas of life other than model flying clubs, precede both GDPR and Covid 19 and were certainly, therefore, not set up for the purpose of Covid “Track and Trace” but for other administrative reasons.

GDPR has merely introduced legal limitations on the sharing of any personal information without consent.

The gathering of information, in itself, is not, therefore, a breach of GDPR and where signing/logging in is a condition of membership and/or use of a facility.

In practice, a model club sign in only needs a name, date and time. Other personal details will, presumably, already be known and already recorded elsewhere.

Any “club” that uses unrestricted public land, as opposed to restricted private land, has, I would think, less rights to impose any rules, including logging-in procedures!

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

I have some doubts about the effectiveness of on-line solutions with a membership profile that has a proven record of failing to embrace modern technology widely. The alternative seems to be an old fashioned signing-in book which seems to be an invitation to spread virus particles if stringent precautions aren't followed strictly.

If I were to decide to exercise my dog in the local park, I believe that I would be fully compliant should I simply walk through the gates without counting the number of people within its boundaries and adopt safe distancing while passing comment on the weather, the state of the grass cutting, amount of litter or any of the myriad of topics that seem to be struck up by common courtesy with passing strangers. I know it would be better to simply ignore any attempt at passing conversation but realistically, this doesn't happen and there is no legislation or specific advice I'm aware of to prevent or even discourage it.

Why then, would it be any different at a model flying site with individual flyers maintaining a safe separation and good hygeine practices? Arguably it would actually be better than the park situation as it would be far easier to track and trace any contacts as they would all be known - elimination being far easier than identification of strangers.

In the case of organised competition there are strong reasons to record contacts as there will often be some element of closer contact but for casual recreational model flying it seems to be an unneccessary imposition.

[Keith Miles 2]

Martin,

Sorry, you’ve lost me!

Registering attendees at flying club sites, and in other areas of life, is nothing new. In the case of my club, it assists amongst other things, in defending both the club and the members against any spurious complaints from locals. None of the members, to my knowledge, have ever had a problem with it as, other than a name, it contains no personal information worthy of scrutiny or concern under GDPR nor is the information distributed outside of the club.

As for our online “Covid Safer” substitute for the signing in book and pen, it can only be accessed by the members and contains information no different to the pen and paper procedure so unless you distrust all online facilities or activity and/or object, on a matter of personal principle, to any requirement to sign a register, I fail to see a problem.

Also, as far as I am aware, and I am happy to be corrected, there is currently no requirement for model flying clubs to introduce a signing in or identification procedure for the sole purpose of “Track and Trace” as in the case of pubs and restaurants who, unlike the former, are dealing with the constant footfall of unlimited numbers of potentially infected “strangers” and are therefore in a totally different situation with different responsibilities.

Furthermore, there appears to be no additional specific restriction on numbers attending a flying site and the latest BMFA guidance does not suggest otherwise.

So, again, please accept my apologies if I missed the point that you are making.

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 13/09/2020 18:41:27

[PeterF]

Keith,

The new advice from BMFA under the rule limiting to 6 people is

If clubs wish to have more than 6 members on site, they must be compliant with COVID-19 Secure guidance which includes having a COVID-19 risk assessment and a Track and Trace protocol in place.

Therefore, you either have to limit numbers or run track and trace recording.

See the link Andy Symons posted a few posts back.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Book, paper, pen, indoors or in somebody's keeping equates to a definite increased risk of disease transmission. It's easy to say bring your own pen but in the real world, it's not unknown for members to arrive without their transmitters! "It's OK mate, borrow my biro..."

Perhaps your club has a different demographic make-up but it's difficult enough to get our members to read emails, let alone log in to our website. The probability of getting even a majority of members to log in to a shared spreadsheet is vanishingly small.

The BMFA certainly do advise that clubs should maintain a track and trace system if more than 6 members attend site at one time.

(Sorry Peter - I took too long replying and duplicated some of your post.)

Edited By Martin Harris on 13/09/2020 20:25:28

[Keith Miles 2]

Peter,

Points taken.

I, humbly, stand corrected!

Our club, however, did a risk assessment long ago and has all protocols in place. As we have always had a signing in and out procedure, under club rules, that would seem to have automatically covered the track and trace element as well.

Martin,

Few members log in to our website either. Some don’t read e-mails. Only a few use our Facebook page.

They are required however, to sign in and out, under club rules. Very rarely do people forget to do so and that has also been the case with the Covid- induced online spreadsheet which was put in place some time ago.

Nobody in our club, to my knowledge, has ever raised any objection to signing in and out and I can think of no good reason why anybody would, especially in the current climate.

And I still fail to see any additional implications in respect of GDPR, given that the vast majority of clubs will already have a separate record of members’ telephone numbers, addresses etc. and those are subject to confidentiality under GDPR.

If GDPR is an issue under “Track and Trace”, it should probably be more of a concern, then, when supplying your contact information to a bartender or restaurateur. We all have the option, of course, of not attending any venue where such a requirement exists.

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 13/09/2020 21:27:58

[Andy Symons - BMFA]

Ive been looking at options for Track and Trace and the Govt have something on the way that looks like itcould take the burden off clubs. **LINK**

Assuming it works of course.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

That looks promising Andy.

I've looked at a few signing in apps and they all seemed to rely on an iPad or PC being used to display the QR code and run the booking in system. We could certainly print out a code for display inside the clubhouse window and as the majority of members have smartphones it should be easier to coach the less tech-savvy than trying to introduce them to spreadsheets!

[cymaz]

All our members have an email. It’s been a slow process but all now use email to contact me if they need a flying slot.

There are two sessions on a Wednesday and Saturday that members book in, 6 slots in each session. I than put the names on a special page on the club Website. All can see if the session is full.

All booking emails are kept only by myself and deleted after 21 days. Any cancellations are amended on the page. Once a session is full an email goes out to all members.

Edited By cymaz on 14/09/2020 06:07:32

[Ron Gray]

For booking flying slots we use Teamup, an online, free shared calendar. Despite some early reservations from some members it has been found to be quick and easy to use and clearly shows who is going flying and when.

[Keith Miles 2]

Firstly, I think we need to make a distinction between booking “slots” and signing in and out. My club has always required the latter and, thus far, has never had reason to introduce the former despite having had a much larger number than six in attendance on good days and despite flying currently restricted to two pilots at a time in the pilot area when, pre-Covid,  it was six.

As I see it, the “rule of six” is to deter groups of people from getting too close to one another and for extended periods of time. Adhering to social distancing is the key factor, not numbers, especially in a large outdoor space. Lack of personal discipline is what has prompted the recent legislation but public parks, for example, have not been closed. Not yet!

Secondly, there are simple spreadsheets that merely require the typing in of name, plus date and time, which work on all mobile phones, tablets and PCs. As I understand it, they only require one person to have administrative access. We have a significant number of non-tech savvy and elderly members amongst a membership of around 70 and, as far as I am aware, nobody has had a problem with using the new system.

Why some people seem to feel that a simple signing in procedure, especially in the current circumstances, is a big deal, baffles me and “scapegoating” gets us nowhere.

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 14/09/2020 09:11:28

[David Ashby - Moderator]

Two off-topic posts removed. If you're fed up with Covid/Governments and life in general then we really don't want to know about it here. Let's keep this factual and helpful for those seeking guidance on this specific matter.

[Martin Harris - Moderator]

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 14/09/2020 08:57:20:

Why some people seem to feel that a simple signing in procedure, especially in the current circumstances, is a big deal, baffles me and “scapegoating” gets us nowhere.

I assume this is aimed, if not exclusively, at me and I'm not sure who is being scapegoated but it's simply from experience with getting our members to adopt any new process. Your established procedures may help greatly in this situation but we need something which is not only simple but will be viewed as such. I feel that we'll have more success with using the official NHS app (assuming it is released soon) than trying to convince elderly members to go on line and use a "shock! horror!" spreadsheet - although we might be able to avoid using the term. As an example, we went to great lengths to produce and publicise a website to allow members to keep up with events and contact each other - less than 20% of the membership had ever logged in to it when I had access to the stats.

Do you have a suggested simple to access on-line spreadsheet that I can take a look at?

[Frank Skilbeck]

Martin, as an option to a spreadsheet look at an online calendar, we use one from here as a site reservations system, I have embedded it into our club webpage so that is where members book in. You can do this from a PC, tablet or smart phone. We have introduced this and stopped members from signing the paper book on site, most of our members are quite happy with this system, those that have problems have a couple of contacts who will make bookings on there behalf. The admin can print off who has been at the site so if track and trace ever need to follow up we can easily let them know who was there on the relevant days and we can also keep a PDF print out for the club records.

Some of our members have asked we keep the system when all restrictions are lifted as they not only find it convenient but a good way of seeing who else is flying on the day so they can avoid being Billy Nomates.

[Tim Flyer]

We are using book paper and pen in our clubhouse to record attendance . However we do have sanitizer and gloves available. Not every member we have is on Wots app or online plus we do often have guests so a sign in with contact details is going to be used .

[Keith Miles 2]

Posted by Martin Harris on 14/09/2020 11:19:23:

Posted by Keith Miles 2 on 14/09/2020 08:57:20:

Why some people seem to feel that a simple signing in procedure, especially in the current circumstances, is a big deal, baffles me and “scapegoating” gets us nowhere.

I assume this is aimed, if not exclusively, at me and I'm not sure who is being scapegoated

No, Martin, not aimed at you exclusively. My point on “scapegoating” is about members of the public in general who seem to seek reasons for non-compliance by making comparisons or criticising the government, scientists etc. Seems to me that the only totally equitable solution would be another total lockdown.

Do you have a suggested simple to access on-line spreadsheet that I can take a look at?

We are using Google “Sheets”. It seems to be working well for us as a substitute for the paper and pen register of attendees. Whilst the flight line is restricted to two at a time, we do not require members to book “slots” and thus far common courtesy has prevailed in terms of reduced flying opportunities even when we have had 20 members in attendance.

 

Edited By Keith Miles 2 on 14/09/2020 21:29:36

[Peter Jenkins]

Posted by Martin Harris on 14/09/2020 11:19:23:

Do you have a suggested simple to access on-line spreadsheet that I can take a look at?

Martin, in case you missed Ron Gray's post above, he suggested the use of an on-line calendar called Teamup. I've been using it for the past year and two other clubs I am a member of have now also adopted it. It is not a spreadsheet but a calendar. You do need a little guidance on how to use the various fields but nothing difficult. There are always those who despite being instructed on how to use the system forget and sometimes end up deleting an entry completely when they merely wished to delete their name - I'm sure all clubs have folk like that but you just have to persevere - it's worth it.

Peter