Transitioning to a low carbon life

[Don Fry]

30 minutes ago, J D 8 said:

  The members of the Club of Rome have continued to publish many more items on the effect we are having on the planet and ourselves. They also have many ideas/suggestions as to how things could improve. Check them out.

About us - Club of Rome.html 88.77 kB · 2 downloads

I have for a hour. As many critics as praises. Not the greatest hour of my life. 

[J D 8]

Sure there are plenty of critics, have been from the start.

Mostly those in power and those with other vested [ short term money making ] interests.

[Frank Skilbeck]

17 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Wots a FC?

Fuel Cell, as in a hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity.

[Jon H]

2 hours ago, MattyB said:

I don't think the scale of the problem is lost on many in this thread

 

Its lost on many globally, i wasnt talking specifically about the thread. 

 

2 hours ago, MattyB said:

According to you I should not have invested in solar

 

That isnt what i said. In one of my first posts i said it made sense to do what you were doing given your reasoning. My subsequent comments have centred around trying to work out if its actually going to help, and if there is a better way to use the same resource elsewhere as the UK grid etc is pretty green by global standards and the same equipment in a dirtier region with more sun may have a greater impact. 

2 hours ago, MattyB said:

because we wouldn't be so careful thinking about how we consume

 

This part is nonsense. Before i leave for work i make sure i have turned off everything in my house. The only things left running are the wifi router and the fridge. When i moved in here this place had an ancient 60's back boiler. Total heap. All it did was turn gas into a gas bill, and co2 as well. It sprang a leak and instead of fixing it i decided to change it for a modern combi job. My gas consumption, especially in the winter is considerably reduced. When my old car got crashed into i deliberately chose a new one that was as efficient as possible, and will again next time. 

 

I consider my consumption pretty carefully and having solar panels wouldnt make me consider it any more. 

 

On the hydrogen business many of your points are exaggerated. Shipping, storage etc are all well understood although our old mate scale is back again. H2 is far safer than petrol as it will vanish in moments should the container be breached rather than sitting in a puddle gassing off and looking for an ignition source. 

 

And yep, that Hyundai situation is crazy and they should do better. I didnt read the link you posted, but i already heard about from another source. Apparently the cell in it was a hand built prototype in effect and the production version parts dont fit. If only as a pr job Hyundai should just fit a new fuel cell and send him on his way. I suspect they dont as they do not fancy a long line of gen 1 owners waiting for their free upgrade. Also, they make money if they sell a new car and ultimately this is the bottom line. 

 

The biggest advantage of H2 will be weight, as batteries are so heavy it really scuppers their effectiveness in anything that moves. They might be better used as stationary storage. 

 

 

3 hours ago, MattyB said:

we believe going ahead with it was more likely to be beneficial to both the planet and us than keeping going as we were.

 

This is my big problem with all of this and the reason for my slightly pessimistic view. We simply dont know if what we are doing will make a difference, and if it will how much. If we are looking at 10s of percent over 50 years, which many studies say we are, its not worth the effort and we should try something else. 

 

Cars are easy to weaponize for the green argument as we all have one and can all relate to them. They are also great for diverting attention away from the real problems (all of chinas new coal power stations for example) and making it look like large companies are doing things.

 

I am not trying to fault you for doing your bit. My problem is all the exaggerated and often completely false claims we are bombarded with so a given company can sell a product to honest people trying to help, under the pretext of it being green, when in reality it may not be.

 

 

 

 

[MattyB]

46 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Wots a FC?

(Hydrogen) Fuel Cell.

[MattyB]

23 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

This part is nonsense. Before i leave for work i make sure i have turned off everything in my house. The only things left running are the wifi router and the fridge. When i moved in here this place had an ancient 60's back boiler. Total heap. All it did was turn gas into a gas bill, and co2 as well. It sprang a leak and instead of fixing it i decided to change it for a modern combi job. My gas consumption, especially in the winter is considerably reduced. When my old car got crashed into i deliberately chose a new one that was as efficient as possible, and will again next time. 

 

I consider my consumption pretty carefully and having solar panels wouldnt make me consider it any more.

Until you have kit such solar, battery (or a vehicle with V2G), solar diverter and a time of use tariff for import and export in place it’s hard to really understand the options available for optimisation. At super high level, by using these resources in together and rethinking how and when you carry out tasks that require energy you can optimise consumption in ways that aren’t possible if you take all your energy from the grid. We have had ours for over a year now, and I’m still working out how to optimise things so we take even less from the grid than we do today. 

[john stones 1 - Moderator]

1 hour ago, Don Fry said:

Wots a FC?

 

Fuel cell ?

[MattyB]

47 minutes ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

The biggest advantage of H2 will be weight, as batteries are so heavy it really scuppers their effectiveness in anything that moves. They might be better used as stationary storage. 

The difference in weight and the additional range they have is not huge when Compton the current gen of H2 cars against a current and EV… 

• Toyota Mirai saloon - 1900kg kerb weight, 400 miles range
• Toyota BZ4X EV SUV - 1970kg kerb weight, 318 miles (so prob 290 real world)

[Nigel R]

13 hours ago, Rich Griff said:

You forgot to say John, family a open the windows as it's sunny outside and don't tell Alexa to turn off the central heating.

Lucky they have a thermostat, the latest must have heating gadget from half century ago...

 

 

[Jon H]

10 hours ago, MattyB said:

The difference in weight and the additional range they have is not huge when Compton the current gen of H2 cars against a current and EV… 

• Toyota Mirai saloon - 1900kg kerb weight, 400 miles range
• Toyota BZ4X EV SUV - 1970kg kerb weight, 318 miles (so prob 290 real world)

 

Toyota's own website says 270 miles for the BZ4X, so it could even be 250 in reality. But working with 270 as published its 130 miles short, and Toyota states it uses 28.6kwh per 100 miles. So we need another 37kwh, and that is another 300kg (approx) for the battery taking the thing to nearly 400kg heavier. Range obviously wont scale either as the battery is expending energy moving itself and the bigger it is the more energy is lost just moving its own bulk so my numbers here are on the friendly side for this hypothetical upgrade. In any case, the heavier car will probably need to be larger, consume more resources to make, have bigger brakes, tyres, do more damage to the road etc. Just not seeing how any of that helps us. 

 

Toyota also talk about 10 year/100k warranty on their Mirai page. The usual dealer servicing nonsense seems to apply mind you and its 3 years direct from factory. 

 

 

 

 

[MattyB]

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

 

Toyota's own website says 270 miles for the BZ4X, so it could even be 250 in reality. But working with 270 as published its 130 miles short, and Toyota states it uses 28.6kwh per 100 miles. So we need another 37kwh, and that is another 300kg (approx) for the battery taking the thing to nearly 400kg heavier. Range obviously wont scale either as the battery is expending energy moving itself and the bigger it is the more energy is lost just moving its own bulk so my numbers here are on the friendly side for this hypothetical upgrade. In any case, the heavier car will probably need to be larger, consume more resources to make, have bigger brakes, tyres, do more damage to the road etc. Just not seeing how any of that helps us. 

 

WLTP in all the reviews is 318 miles, and even the metadata stored by Google for Toyota's BZ4X page has that figure:

 

 

..but you are right when you actually get to the site the range figure is now 270 combined; apologies. Perhaps their marketing department retrospectively decided they want to only go with a relatively pessimistic real world figure that 100% of drivers should be able to achieve in daily driving?

 

Whatever the reason, the stats suggest that 250-270 with 150Kw fast charging capability should be enough for 99.9% of journeys in this country - whose bladder and stomach will allow them to travel that far without a 30-45 min break anyway?! Yes, rapids of those speeds aren't ubiquitous yet, but they will be in 1-2 years so I don't agree that the car has to have a bigger battery to be comparable. In that situation the limit on range will always be the driver, not the car. Besides, how the heck are you going to refuel a H2 powered vehicle once you do reach the end of it's range given there are only 16 stations in the UK?!

 

1 hour ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Toyota also talk about 10 year/100k warranty on their Mirai page. The usual dealer servicing nonsense seems to apply mind you and its 3 years direct from factory. 

 

I did provide a link to this on the last page - the 10 year warranty is not applicable in the UK, it's only 5 on the FC... 

 

 

I do quite like the look of it, but given the price (£50k), the current fuelling issue and the doubts over warranty, any long range EV is more compelling at this point in time IMO. Practical H2 driving for general motorists seems a very, very long way away...

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by MattyB

[Jon H]

Missed the link, i just googled mirai. 

 

Anyway thats fair enough. 5 years and 60k for the cell isnt dreadful in my view as a warranty, assuming they arent all programmed to give up the ghost at 61k that is. I would doubt it though as i assume toyota would be building in a healthy margin to make sure all cars made it to 60. 

 

As for the range of the other one, its just another example of the public being mislead by confusing and contradictory information. 

 

On the long drive thing, if i go on a long drive i never stop unless i have to. If i need a leak its a 5 minute pit stop and back on the road. If i need fuel its a quick job. I am not loitering around a scabby services for a moment longer than i absolutely have to. I have somewhere i want to be and intend to get there asap. Wasting time kicking my heels at a services does not factor into my day and i do not want to be waiting ages for my car to charge up. On top of that rapid recharging while hot will ultimately shorten the life of the battery anyway. At least a hydrogen car can refuel like a petrol one and we can get back under way. 

 

You are correct about the lack of places to refuel though and that would need to be sorted out for it to be viable. 

[Rich Griff]

Lots of green tech articles on the digital E&T mag today

Engineering and Technology

 

Interesting read.

 

[leccyflyer]

14 hours ago, Don Fry said:

Wots a FC?

Ask Derek and Clive?

[Don Fry]

13 minutes ago, leccyflyer said:

Ask Derek and Clive?

Who are Derek and Clive?

[IDD15]

13 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

This is my big problem with all of this and the reason for my slightly pessimistic view. We simply dont know if what we are doing will make a difference, and if it will how much. If we are looking at 10s of percent over 50 years, which many studies say we are, its not worth the effort and we should try something else. 

 

This point is really important and is what can make people reluctant to take some form of action. The flawed government initiative for us all to buy diesel cars only to be told later that perhaps it wasn't a good idea inevitably reinforces this view.  This situation is also compounded by the fact that the oil industry is not going to give up without a fight. Last year the G20 countries subsidised the oil industry to the tune of $6 Trillion dollars, that buys you a lot of influence and one serious FUD campaign. 

 

Fossil Fuel Subsidies

 

This "anti green agenda" has been very successful, they've even managed to hijack the COP Climate conferences courtesy of their lobby groups! On the positive side   @Cuban8 will not have to worry about any initiatives or scientists telling him what to do from that conference later this year... 😃

 

When I was getting solar panels fitted at the end of 2012 I was reading anti solar stuff that suggested my panels would need replacing in 10 years. 26.84 MWh of generation later I don't think so... But quite how do we get through all this FUD and make the right decisions?

[leccyflyer]

45 minutes ago, Don Fry said:

Who are Derek and Clive?

Latter day alter egos of Peter Cooke and Dudley Moore, not linkable here really.

[Colin Carpenter]

No but hilarious! Colin

[IDD15]

An alternative to roof top solar that may be of interest to some people here would be to purchase shares in the Ripple Energy co-operatives for solar and wind farms.  Further details can be found here:

 

Ripple Energy

 

My declaration of interest is that I am already a member of the Ripple Energy Kirk Hill wind farm and solar farm co-operatives. The wind farm is currently being built and so I have received no payments at this time on my initial investments. That is all set to change hopefully early in 2024! 

 

Obviously I absolutely can't advise whether this is a good investment or thing to do for anybody. The important thing any person thinking of investing must do is read and understand the Ripple share offer documents and FAQ's.

 

Hope this helps

 

idd

[Jon H]

So from your post IDD we have some actual data about panel life span in use. This is valuable as its an actual proven thing rather than something someone just made up. 

 

I think the problem, when it comes to politicians, is they want to be seen to be doing something in the moment to satisfy X group of voters. Meanwhile, they are back handing the opposite side of whatever it is to satisfy Y group of voters. Ultimately, they want to get voted back in and anything beyond that is not important. Car companies (and other companies for that matter) want to be seen to be doing something even if (like that stupid nissan i keep mentioning) its actually rubbish. 

 

When i was at old warden this weekend i had single use disposable wooden cutlery with my breakfast with the little packet saying how green it was. Its better than single use plastic, but wouldnt a metal one you can wash countless times be better long term? seems a strange choice. 

 

in any case i would far rather the whole debate was science lead with clear numbers saying what the facts are, where can we make the biggest impact and all that rather than listening to the self promotion of companies trying to sell you their new maybe green tech. 

[Jon H]

2 minutes ago, IDD15 said:

Ripple Energy co-operatives for solar and wind farms

 

Not a fan of these big farms. Offshore windmills are extremely ugly and leave us with plenty of composite blades we cant recycle so end up burning. They also keep nicking our balsa! Solar panels in big farms also take up massive amounts of space, which is already in very short supply in the UK at least. 

 

I do wonder why Heathrow and similar airports do not have all of their hangars covered in panels though. They could probably power the whole joint, or perhaps convert all the airport vehicles to electric as range is not a big issue for them just running around the airfield. 

[Nigel R]

4 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

when it comes to politicians, is they want to be seen to be doing something in the moment to satisfy X group of voters

 

True, but...

 

Quote

Democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Solar panels in big farms also take up massive amounts of space, which is already in very short supply in the UK at least. 

 

And that space, what else would it have been used for? Around here they are appearing on fields that are also home to Sunday Lunch sheep. Seems a pretty reasonable dual-use.

[Nigel R]

4 hours ago, Jon - Laser Engines said:

Not a fan of these big farms. Offshore windmills are extremely ugly and leave us with plenty of composite blades we cant recycle so end up burning

 

But offshore farms are effective.

 

That said, composite blades are a different problem, although in the grand scheme of things, I can't help but think it's a rather smaller problem than the whole climate change deal. Or to put it another way, I'd rather see the building a whole lot of windmills than a new bituminous coal fired power stations. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good, etc.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Nigel R

[Jon H]

1 minute ago, Nigel R said:

I'd rather see the building a whole lot of windmills than a new bituminous coal fired power stations

 

can we bin both and build something else? 

 

7 minutes ago, Nigel R said:

And that space, what else would it have been used for

 

I have seem plenty of pasture/meadow land covered in solar panels which are at ground level so the land is more or less useless. 

 

looking at some numbers again the owls hatch solar farm (dual use with sunday lunch on it) is 212 acres and is able to power 14,000 homes, so 66 homes per acre. 26.4million homes/66= 400000 acres. The area of London is only 388400 acres so we have a bit of a problem there given we are ignoring business and industry with the numbers on hand and we need more solar for that and no details available on how winter impacts the numbers. 

 

In any case, once again its that pesky scale problem. 

[Rich Griff]

Hope you kept that wooden cutlery Jon !

 

Every time I go near s coffee machine they have to refill the stirrer stick container. Some are oval section, bi planes.......