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Mini Super Belair Kits


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1 hour ago, Jim Carss said:

Cheers Pat,I thought you knew something about this model.No probs

stay cool

Jim

Hi Jim, I think you may be remembering comments I've made in the past about the versions of KK Jnr 60.  

 

BTW nice looking Mini Supers in your earlier post ? Shame they're spoiled by the grease defecating noise generators that provides the nose weight. ?

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10 hours ago, kc said:

David Boddington explained the Mini Super in his article in AMI Nov 96.  ( it's on Outerzone )

The AMI free plan on Outerzone was taken from the original Boddington drawing and is the narrower fuselage.  When Keil Kraft kitted it they widened the fuselage and made it a tricycle u/c and paid him his first ever payment for aeromodelling.

 

This plan from AMI actually spans 46 7/8 inches which is more than the 45 inches stated in the article heading and a bit less than the 48 inches quoted by Keil Kraft in their adverts.  The AMI plan fuselage  ( Boddo said it's from his original tracing ) measures 80mm  ( about 3 1/8 inches ) outside and gives 60mm ( about 2 7/16  inches ) inside the fus which should be enough for 2 servos  and just about enough for 3 modern servos if using glow with a throttle.    If someone measures the Belair kit then we might know whether its from  the KK plan or the AMI one but I wouldn't expect it to make much difference.    Just build to the plan you have and don't mix components from one plan with another.

 

Details are in my second post which says it's the KK original.

and measuring the fuselage confirms what you say KC as it's 100mm outside and 80mm inside. The span is 1188mm (46 6/8 inches")

 

But having said that Belair also do 

 

image.png.4e355067a42ed8bdac1d884b4dc3412d.png

 

Steve

 

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10 hours ago, PatMc said:

Hi Jim, I think you may be remembering comments I've made in the past about the versions of KK Jnr 60.  

 

BTW nice looking Mini Supers in your earlier post ? Shame they're spoiled by the grease defecating noise generators that provides the nose weight. ?

 

Scared of getting your hands dirty Pat? ?

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16 hours ago, EarlyBird said:

I worked through the plan with a ruler and made up a list of wood and added a few just to make sure. To be honest I got to the point where I was losing the will to live, paracetamol didn't help, so I pressed the buy button and I will see what arrives ? Not to worry I will definitely be able to start when the order arrives and hopefully have some extra to put into stock. 

The list I came up with was very simple.

Sheet

1/16  x5

3/16 x2 

Strip

3/16 square x18

1/8x3/16       x3

 

Very easy in the end it just seemed difficult which was putting me off ordering strip wood myself (I always bought the additional wood pack from Sarik) which in turn was putting me off going anywhere else. 

 

A note of caution for anyone building for the first time. I am into double figures on my builds and Sarik always 'give' me too much wood, for example I have nine sheets of 1/16, so I have a stockpile and a pile of scrap that I can delve into if I make a mistake and order too little. If you are short then ordering more will cost £12 delivery, not the end of the world. Also it's not difficult to cut strip from sheet especially easy for short lengths.

 

Don't be like me and build up imaginary obstacles when in reality it's easy and fun.

 

 

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Spot on, Steve, you just have to go with what you can get and make a start.

 

I am lucky in that the Smoke Trail plan lists all the materials required and I have built up a fair bit of surplus stock over the years. Little of it is the required "medium soft" grade but I'm going with it because (i) the local (45 mins drive!) model shop doesn't have any better, (ii) there are no shows for a few months where I could choose the wood and (iii) I can't guarantee a fresh order from SLEC or BC would be any better.

 

By the way, I would suggest you order an extra sheet of each size to account for waste and invest in a balsa stripper to cut your own strip from sheet - much cheaper.

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On 01/02/2022 at 17:14, Jim Carss said:

P1210041.JPG

This has made me start thinking about tweaks. I was going to build it strictly to the plan but obviously I never was as mine is an electric conversion.

I am now thinking about ailerons and moving the tailplane up. Starting with the ailerons what size do they need to be and the plan dihedral is 2" under each tip which obviously can be reduced, down too none?

 

I have cut up the plan, and ironed it as it came folded, so I can start sketching. There is a second lower spar that could become an aileron spar but it's a long way in so rather than moving it maybe just hinge the TE adding 3/16 spars onto the wing and the front of the built up aileron as it will be.  Just a bit of necessary forward planning because poor planning promotes poor performance (5Ps) how did work creep in ?

 

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Steve, good to see your building has become so prolific!

 

I note one thing; your favoured route when converting IC designs to electric is to move F1 forward. I have found this usually involves a lot of work as the shape of the cowl and front end changes considerably. Sometimes this makes it hard to get the same curves in as there is now a piece of wood where there once wasn't, and any taper has to start from closer to the nose.

 

Have you considered leaving F1 where it is, but cutting a square hole in it  to accommodate a lightply 'box'? The box has your motor plate on the front and is sized to fit your batteries. The nice thing about this is that you can leave it temporarily attached until everything is carved, and then line it up to get a great close spinner gap. You still get the battery as far forward as possible, but you can build as per the plan.

 

This is how Richard at Warbirds Replicas does it, and I converted Peter's old Peggy Sue using this method. In fact, all my new builds are done the same way as I find having F1 further back makes cowlings a little easier.

 

See what you think; I can give you pictures if you need.

 

Graham

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10 minutes ago, Graham Davies 3 said:

Have you considered leaving F1 where it is, but cutting a square hole in it  to accommodate a lightply 'box'? The box has your motor plate on the front and is sized to fit your batteries. The nice thing about this is that you can leave it temporarily attached until everything is carved, and then line it up to get a great close spinner gap. You still get the battery as far forward as possible, but you can build as per the plan.

I must admit that I usually move F1 forwards. However I have used the 'battery coffin' approach a couple of times. Some pics in my Aeromaster diary might help: http://www.bartonhewsons.uk/home/modelflying/sport/aeromasterdiary2.html

 

Trevor

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Ron, yours is a box built onto F1, which is great. The 'Wills' approach that Trevor uses is a coffin that goes through F1. It means you can get the battery right up behind the motor. It also means you have somewhere to put the battery. This just needs supporting somewhere suitable.

 

Either work though.

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That's a fair point Ron. Both the Ballerina and Peggy Sue conversions needed the batteries sliding back to behind F1 anyway. Still, it's nice to have options!

 

When I designed both the J-22 and KB-11, I got the battery to go over the motor to get as far forward as possible. But we all know warbirds and their CG issues!

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Just to avoid any misunderstanding -the Boddington plan from AMI shows dihedral as 2 inches measured at a point 6.5 inches from tip which equals 3 inches at the very tip and it says under each tip.  The total of 6 inches does seem a bit excessive though.   So perhaps  Earlybird's plan says something else for good reason.

 

The reason for moving the engine bulkhead forward rather than building a box is that building a box from 6mm ply etc needs accurately cut edges to the ply to make it strong enough.   Cutting ply square is easy if one has a circular saw, but tricky with hand tools unless one is a good woodworker.  So moving F1 forward is usually easier!    Of course one way to get nice square cuts without tools would be to get B&Q etc to cut the ply up on their panel saw for you.  

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12 minutes ago, kc said:

So perhaps  Earlybird's plan says something else for good reason.

 

As it happens KC John Stones has downloaded a Mini Super plan from OZ which is the same as mine from Belair.

This is the relevant bit.

 

image.thumb.png.f63dc1ed0a2609a75ea7fed5efcfd14e.png

 

As I keep saying this is the KK plan.

Yes as you have said yourself the Boddington plan is different so it is important to know which version you are building.

 

Steve

 

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Well actually the Outerzone plan is not the original Keil Kraft plan but a redrawn CAD version! It says so.  There is no sign of that familiar Keil Kraft logo and in fact it says it's a "vintage model " which tells you it's later.   Whether it is exactly similar we won't know unless someone has an original plan to compare.   I would have doubts that the original KK plan had wing bolts ( dowels and bands surely?) and they probably wouldn't be metric in that era.   The thing that stands out as different is the CG - on the CAD one it's shown on the cabin centre strut, while Boddingtons AMI drawing shows it further forward ( 1 and 15/16ths inch back from LE ) which is well forward of the cabin centre strut. 

 

Of course it might be wisest to build to that redrawn CAD plan which may be exactly what is needed today for RC - maybe the CG is better, wing bolts are nicer and cheaper than rubber bands, maybe only 2inch each side is better dihedral and the bigger elevator seems better .

 

The other plan on Outerzone is the AMI  one Boddington said he did from his original tracings sent to KK and has no elevator or an optional elevator which is somewhat smaller than the CAD version.

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2 hours ago, kc said:

building a box from 6mm ply etc needs accurately cut edges to the ply

6mm ply for an engine box, rather OTT methinks. The Peggy sue one shown above is, IIRC, 3mm and the Rascal's one is 5mm but then that has got a G160 hanging off it! Cutting ply square can be tricky but if cut slightly oversize it can be sanded to a square edge. The beauty of both of the ones that I've shown is that they lock together (Peggy Sue's copied from a Richard Wills design), I used a scroll saw but a coping saw would have coped (!!!!) just as well.

Edited by Ron Gray
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I have tried all of the methods and they all work in that the model flies. The methods that allow the battery to be moved forward are my first choice, coffin then F1 moved. How I decide between the two is a bit subjective but on small models with a built up cowl coffin can be difficult, Rhapsody is an example whereas RF-4 had the room (just).

On electric conversions the shape of the motor and need for ventilation can prevent a faithful plan following. What I have to do is try my best to follow the plan but compromise if necessary and hopefully end up with a pleasing shape. As I don't do scale I have no problem extending or shortening the nose for example. Those decisions are in the future as I am building the wings first which are going to have ailerons and maybe a flat wing unless someone comes up with an aerodynamic reason not to.

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5 minutes ago, kc said:

Earlybird.   Presumably your Belair kit included a ply wing joiner which will be the wrong angle if you change dihedral.  You would likely need to cut a new joiner after plotting the angle required for 1 inch dihedral.

Thanks KC,

Yes they are cut for 2"  and new ones will be needed. The aileron decision means cutting holes for servo wires and cutting the aileron ribs to the correct length. As I have decided to convert the TE into ailerons it's just a matter of fine detail. These decisions have to be made and acted on before the components are glued in place, it makes life easier that way. Next then is to check the plan for which ribs need holes and which ribs need cutting down and by how much. I do find making decisions to be the hard part.

 

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I suppose one could use the standard ply joiner by fitting a fillet of spar above the actual spar to connect the joiner to spar safely.  Not as good as a new joiner but less work.

 

Another thing I noticed is that the elevator is full width on this CAD plan ( had a gap in middle on the KK plan in the article ) which means no elevator joiner is used and a pushrod can go right down the middle of fuselage.   A straight dowel pushrod can be used with no bends or anything, right onto the horn which also means a pull movement for up elevator with no lost movement.   Gives very positive elevator control.   Easiest with low mounted tailplane.

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EB

I made the mistake of using the T/E as ailerons on my MK1,being so narrow they lack authority,could push the stick full over and then wait for it to turn,Ideal for training. Check out my White MK1 pic to see the trailing edge ailerons.

This pic is the original Mk1 modified with 2" wide ailerons,greater surface area,works a treat. Hope this helps.

Jim

IMG_0112.JPG.5acd54f59f349d7b5da166aea8a1521e.JPG

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